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Old 22nd August 2013, 09:50   #16
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Default Re: Critical Safety Components of your Car that you shouldn't ignore

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Originally Posted by abhinavrm View Post
Maruti 800, 2005 model. (non K series, most recent version of 800 before alto 800)
7 years, 46k+ kms,




It was the primary belt. Picture of the faulty belt attached.


Manual says replace after 1,00,000 kms with I (Inspection) every 20k kms.
Looks like the attached graphic is not displaying properly. Why don't you share the experience of changing the belt and the driving impressions post the change? Also, did any symptoms preceded before snapping of the belt?

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Saket
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Old 22nd August 2013, 10:18   #17
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Default Re: Critical Safety Components of your Car that you shouldn't ignore

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Looks like the attached graphic is not displaying properly. Why don't you share the experience of changing the belt and the driving impressions post the change? Also, did any symptoms preceded before snapping of the belt?

Regards,
Saket
Here is an alternative link to the timing belt picture.http://twitpic.com/d9muuq/full Notice the few teeth which have broken.

I did not see, hear or experience any symptoms before the belt gave way. I went over a speed breaker near a toll booth and very abruptly, the engine stalled. My first thought went to an overheated engine, but the temperature guage showed normal. My second thought went to an engine seizure since I had changed the engine oil just 3 days ago and had not run the car with new oil and I was doing 100+ for an hour or so. My third debugging step was to check for the ignition fuses, but they all seemed ok. The car would crank, but not start. I thought of trying a push-start on a slope, but ruled it out since it is a MPFI engine. I had no other option than call MOS and wait for them.

After the belt change, I could not see any perceivable change in drive characteristics. The drive felt the same as before.

Something interesting that I noted was after installing the timing belt, the mechanic put talcum powder on the timing belt! He said grease/oil messes the belt.

Also, I've been trying to figure out if the Suzuki F8B/F8D engine, that the Maruti 800 has, is an interference or a non-interference engine. I can only hope it was a non-interference engine and the engine has not been damaged during this episode. Any idea about the F8B/F8D engine type?
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Old 22nd August 2013, 10:43   #18
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Default Re: Critical Safety Components of your Car that you shouldn't ignore

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Originally Posted by abhinavrm View Post

Also, I've been trying to figure out if the Suzuki F8B/F8D engine, that the Maruti 800 has, is an interference or a non-interference engine. I can only hope it was a non-interference engine and the engine has not been damaged during this episode. Any idea about the F8B/F8D engine type?
Since your car started and is running fine just like earlier, I think you can relax now. I could not gather much information on the type of the F8 engines. Just I know about them that they are modified to develop the F10 engine with an extra identical cylinder to power the likes of older Wagon-R. There is a simple math to it:

Total CC of F8 = 796
No. of cylinders = 3

Hence, CC per cylinder = 796/3= 265.33 CC

Now add one more cylinder (4 cylinders total) = 265.33 X 4= 1061.33 CC

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Saket
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Old 22nd August 2013, 18:53   #19
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Default Re: Critical Safety Components of your Car that you shouldn't ignore

Nice thread. Some points to add:

1. Windshield: I think this is one aspect which does not get much attention. Every windshield has a life span and after a point, no amount of cleaning, polishing and de-greasing will help. A defective glass is most dangerous when a high beam hits since it will scatter light and totally blind you. Since the problem is most profound in oncoming traffic, a lot of drivers think its ok since the blinding is only temporary. If your windshield is old and splitting light, its best to replace it although its cost is on the higher side.

2. Timing belt: Cant stress this enough as is evident from all the posts. To share an experience, was driving a few years back and went over a few small humps at slightly higher speed. It was more of a rumble. Just after that the car stalled. Could not figure out what had happened since everything else was normal. It was my cousins car and he had just got it serviced the previous day for the trip. Turns out after time belt inspection, the mechanic hadnt closed the timing belt cover properly. The vibrations over the hump caused the cover beeding to come loose and snap into one of the grooves in the timing belt and it became stuck!!! Well the car had to be towed and my cousin created a ruckus with the dealer and they fixed the engine for a very nominal cost. No problems were observed after that. He used the car for another 20K or so before selling it off.

3. Pay attention to lights and gauges: I remember the old cars having loads of gauges, but now we down to just 4. As cars have improved drastically and become very reliable these days, there might be a tendency to overlook what gauges are telling. Learnt it the hard way when my Scorpio had been showing high temp reading and finally stopped. Just a week earlier it has been checked but a crack had appeared in the cooling system and was draining the coolant out.
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Old 22nd August 2013, 23:26   #20
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Default Re: Critical Safety Components of your Car that you shouldn't ignore

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>>4) Timing belt


I couldn't agree more with you on point no.4- Timing belt. I had a breakdown of my car 5 days ago on a highway in the middle of nowhere on Aug 15th. The vehicle was serviced exactly 3 days before I set out for a trip on the long weekend. A few guests were accompanying on the trip and imagine my plight when a freshly serviced car's timing belt snaps and we are stuck on the highway!

Maruti On Road Service van showed up after an hour. They diagnosed the problem of a broken timing belt, but could not carry out any repairs. (What a waste if they can only diagnose the problem and not fix it!) Moreover, since it was Aug 15, all workshops were closed. It took a good 3-4 hours to locate a mechanic and replacement parts and convince the mechanic with some $$$ to fix the car. What was supposed to be a leisurely morning drive turned out to be a late evening dash.

What appalled me was why Maruti service station did not take care of preventive maintainence when I gave it for servicing. After all, we give our cars to them to make informed decisions about reactive and more importantly preventive maintainence. When the mechanic was replacing the timing belt, the AC belt also had to be removed and I noticed that the AC belt was almost broken too. I bet Maruti service station didn't check on it either.

Gone are the days when a full service meant the service station would proactively check all vitals. High volumes of cars means the service stations only check something only when you mention that there is a problem with it. In the wake of this, I encourage everyone to insist on vitals being checked during every full vehicle service that @Simple_car has mentioned.
I would like to begin by thanking you for raising this unpleasant topic. It has become not second, but first nature, that it is considered by quite a few thinkers of late, that they, tend to talk only about the good, great and the cool. It is not considered ok to raise certain topics. There are many who go on to defend why certain things are the way they are and why it is incorrect to question and that one should understand. Questioning hits a raw nerve and it seems it has become unfashionable or unpleasant. But it must also be remembered that progress and betterment or change can only be elicited by questions.

In my sixteen years plus of working with the MASS and other private service centres it has become very clear that with the exception of very few centres (which probably is statistically insignificant), the standards and quality of service has become very poor. What is surprising is the fact that the manufacturers train the mechanics and technicians with state of the art methodologies and techniques to correct or remedy problems. It is not rocket science. If a part x has failed then the client or the customer will complain of 1,2,3.. There are company guidelines for everything. Especially after a product is launched they will come out with revised internal guidelines of systems which are more prone to failure and what to do to remedy them. It can be very effectively argued that, automotive science along with civil engineering is one of the more precise sciences. It has been documented and studied in depth and the results are predictable. Not so, for example in the field of health sciences.

Thus, what prevents authorised service stations (centres) (i used the word stations for the reason that when i am frustrated, the acronym for these stations in plural would reduce some of the heightened state of anxiety (experienced by people who treat their automobiles as family members and having an Emotional quotient - an informal survey led to this factor as the most significant factor in increased stress levels when a vehicle is due for service - under consideration for publication), from adopting standard routine practices is the shortcuts they undertake. For e.g. they have ten bays and accept 35 vehicles. They only have 8 service advisors. Thus, they prefer to change engine oil, replace the coolant, change the air filter and if necessary the fuel filter and perform the wheel balancing and alignment and make money of routine maintenance. Very recently, in fact I asked the works head of the Nexus group based in RMV extension, in Bangalore and he stated there is more money in scheduled service maintenance and that the turnover is faster and they can take in more vehicles. Whereas if they take up vehicles, with lots of complaints or which require fine tuning they require more time and they cannot charge much and even if they do they would make much more money in the same time doing a routine simple service job.

Your post assumes importance as it is a pointer that owners be well informed and read their user manuals and know what is due for that particular service at the mentioned mileage or time frame. It does not have to be a case of ok, i have a car.. these are the compromises i need to make and bear with so and so and such and such a problem as the car can still function, it is getting older, etc (some of the reasons given by these authorised SS as to why the car won't work like new). I hope that one day all car owners take time to read and understand about their vehicles and that day these authorised SS will do a good job - the results of which are statistically significant and which go a long way in improving the quality of life of a car owner.

Thanks for the post - abhinavrm!
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Old 23rd August 2013, 01:29   #21
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Default Re: Critical Safety Components of your Car that you shouldn't ignore

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Which car are we talking here?
The newer generations of Maruti stable like the Ritz, Swift, Dzire, etc use the K12M while the Alto K10, now no prizes for guessing, uses K10B engines.

The K12M has a timing chain, which is good for even beyond the normal life spans of the engine itself. My guess is beyond 2.5-3.0 lac kms.
Dear Saket77,

Can you post some sort of link / source from where you got this info?

I ask since, from whatever I am reading on the net and also from the manual, I am getting the distinct impression that the K12 M series engine is most likely a non-interference one with timing belts. Not a timing chain. If it were to be a timing chain, one has to remember that just like any chain, this one also requires lubrication or replacement at specified intervals. The belts on the other hand are not only cheaper for the customer, but also easier to replace and inspect. Hence, these are preferred for mainstream cars in general.

Thanks,
Simple_car
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Old 23rd August 2013, 10:05   #22
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Default Re: Critical Safety Components of your Car that you shouldn't ignore

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Dear Saket77,

Can you post some sort of link / source from where you got this info?

I ask since, from whatever I am reading on the net and also from the manual, I am getting the distinct impression that the K12 M series engine is most likely a non-interference one with timing belts. Not a timing chain. If it were to be a timing chain, one has to remember that just like any chain, this one also requires lubrication or replacement at specified intervals. The belts on the other hand are not only cheaper for the customer, but also easier to replace and inspect. Hence, these are preferred for mainstream cars in general.

Thanks,
Simple_car
Dear Simple car, even if that uses a timing belt, and since K12M is a non-interference engine, the result would not be catastrophic. The main damage that the interference engine suffers from timing belt failure is that the valve do not close when the piston reaches the top dead center or TDC. Since the valves have not closed, the piston heads hit the valves and damages itself, valves and a few more things which actually mean an engine rebuild. In a non-interference engine, the engine will only stop running if the timing belt snaps.

Regarding the timing chains, what I know is that they have very long lives, at least 200K kms, hence its not as fragile as the rubber ones.

You can read about interference engine here, though you might have already read it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interference_engine

Some more: http://www.freeasestudyguides.com/in...ce-engine.html

About the K12M, you may read a topic on TBHP itself: http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...ng-belt-2.html (Symptoms of a worn out timing belt?)

Regards,
Saket
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Old 23rd August 2013, 14:26   #23
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Default Re: Critical Safety Components of your Car that you shouldn't ignore

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Originally Posted by saket77 View Post
Dear Simple car, even if that uses a timing belt, and since K12M is a non-interference engine, the result would not be catastrophic.

Regarding the timing chains, what I know is that they have very long lives, at least 200K kms, hence its not as fragile as the rubber ones.

You can read about interference engine here, though you might have already read it

About the K12M, you may read a topic on TBHP itself: http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...ng-belt-2.html (Symptoms of a worn out timing belt?)

Regards,
Saket
Thanks a lot Saket77,

I had a look in the thread. I would have liked a source of info though. Not that I don't trust the user, but just to be on the safer side.

Timing chains are much more reliable for sure. Never doubted that. I guess I will have to inquire on my own just for the peace of my mind.

And yes, I had already read about the interference engines after my indica fiasco Thanks anyways.

Thanks,
Simple_car
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Old 23rd August 2013, 15:04   #24
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Default Re: Critical Safety Components of your Car that you shouldn't ignore

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Originally Posted by Simple_car View Post
Thanks a lot Saket77,

I had a look in the thread. I would have liked a source of info though. Not that I don't trust the user, but just to be on the safer side.

Timing chains are much more reliable for sure. Never doubted that. I guess I will have to inquire on my own just for the peace of my mind.

And yes, I had already read about the interference engines after my indica fiasco Thanks anyways.

Thanks,
Simple_car
Do let me know if you come across some other source of this info. I will be interested in reading about it too.

Regards,
Saket
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