Go Back   Team-BHP > Under the Hood > Technical Stuff


View Poll Results: I have TRIED IT and have found that ...
It works wonders for my car/bike. I highly recommend it. 22 33.85%
Slight improvement, but I recommend it. 12 18.46%
No difference at all. Don't bother trying this non-sense stuff. 17 26.15%
It screwed my car!!! Stay away from all boron compounds!!! 14 21.54%
Voters: 65. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 26th June 2007, 14:57   #166
BHPian
 
Ravi Yadav's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: UP-15
Posts: 136
Thanked: 10 Times
Default

Thanks, finetuning for the update.
Ravi Yadav is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th June 2007, 17:03   #167
Team-BHP Support
 
tsk1979's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 22,953
Thanked: 15,644 Times
Default

Some Israel university did some research on the MotorSilk product(Which is effectively Boron in a more palatable form)
http://evergreenamerica.com/resource...nionReport.pdf
It works according to them and benefits are due to more wear and tear, but if you want to remove carbon deposits I think a high detergent oil will do the job better.
tsk1979 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th June 2007, 20:29   #168
BHPian
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 393
Thanked: 9 Times
Default

Hi Tanveer,

Removal of carbon through boron treatment is parmanent unlike high detergent engine oil......this is because of aggressive nature of boron particles to stick to metal surface under pressure and temperature making fine layer on surface which during this process itself removes carbon....after this layer is formed there is no chance that carbon gets accumulated.This is the benefit we get apart from very low friction.Research has proved excellent ability of boron in many areas in automobile application.......this technique is so new yet so revolutionary.....
finetuning is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th June 2007, 11:24   #169
Team-BHP Support
 
tsk1979's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 22,953
Thanked: 15,644 Times
Default

Nope not new, the company has been making motor silk(Boron additive) since 2002.
Before the API-CI/ or SM specification came into force Zinc Phosphorous and Boron were used in engine oil. The new classifications restricted these quantities and these 3 were replaced by other additives.
API-CH oil has quite a high percentage of boron, Zinc and Phosphorous.
For example Mobil 1 super syn has 205ppm of boron, even though its the SL standard. In most oils when the standards got changed reduction in Z and P was also supplemented by reduction in Boron, but in many oils like Harley davidson and Kendell GT oil there is 250+ ppm of boron in oil.
tsk1979 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th June 2007, 11:29   #170
BHPian
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: thiruvananthapuram
Posts: 774
Thanked: 20 Times
Default

But what about the people who has voted that boron screwed their engine.
swathyd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th June 2007, 11:41   #171
BHPian
 
ravi@64bhp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Hyderabad
Posts: 602
Thanked: 8 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by swathyd View Post
But what about the people who has voted that boron screwed their engine.
Good question. We need to know what procedure they have followed in doing so.
ravi@64bhp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th June 2007, 11:41   #172
Team-BHP Support
 
tsk1979's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 22,953
Thanked: 15,644 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by swathyd View Post
But what about the people who has voted that boron screwed their engine.
this means that maybe boric acid is not the right way to add boron. When mineral oil companies or motor silk etc., add to engine oil, Boron is not in the boric acid form.
That said, in my opinion, using a good engine oil meeting latest standards is better than using an older standard oil and then putting in boron.
The price difference between a higher standard oil and an older oil is like 30-40rs/liter, which is not much I think.
tsk1979 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th June 2007, 11:54   #173
BHPian
 
2fast4u's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: pune / Bahrain
Posts: 488
Thanked: 5 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
Some Israel university did some research on the MotorSilk product(Which is effectively Boron in a more palatable form)
http://evergreenamerica.com/resource...nionReport.pdf
It works according to them and benefits are due to more wear and tear, but if you want to remove carbon deposits I think a high detergent oil will do the job better.
but getting carbon deposits off either flush or whatever method is better for new engines - older engines have seals which can give way and start a leak. can u let me know ur view??
2fast4u is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th June 2007, 12:23   #174
Team-BHP Support
 
tsk1979's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 22,953
Thanked: 15,644 Times
Default

Yes 2fast, its true. Some very old engines have carbon and other deposits seated into the seals. Removing them could lead to failure. Thats why you have these flushes which say "For engines older than 50,000kms" and some which say "For engines newer than 50,000".
Boron is not a detergent, it forms a bond with the metal when available in free form.
However Boric acid(H3BO3) is soluble only in water.
When heated to 170 degree C it dehydrates forming HB02. This metaboric acid is slightly soluble in water with melting point at 236 degree C.
You do not want Metaboric acid in your engine, trust me. However if your engine oil temperature goes to 170 degree C there are bigger problems than just metaboric acid.
Though I believe addition of boron is good, I cannot see (by way of chemical reactions) that how is it possible for boric acid to release free boron to form a bond with the metal.

Also all commercial regarding this method involve free boron to get the bond, not boric acid.

Now suppose even if your boric acid released free boron, the Hydrogen and oxygen will have to go somewhere, it cannot vanish (poof). So in that case you have Water in your engine oil. A happy thought aint it?
BTW the seive in the oil filters catches all things such as boric acid. A member found the white powder in the engine oil filter.

I am all for DIY stuff, but when the actual chemical reactions are missing and instead you have statements like "Revolutionary way etc., etc.," it leads to skeptism.
tsk1979 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th June 2007, 23:12   #175
BHPian
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 393
Thanked: 9 Times
Default

Hi,

What I mean by word Revolutionary was to have a new approach in lubrication technology blending solid lubricant in liquid lubricant...its indeed new....also as fas as I know this product was in testing phase by many leading companies till few years ago......

Now Boric Acid contain Element Boron and boron doesnt stick to metal surface......its boron oxide which forms a thin layer over surface in the presence of humid air....above this thin film there are plates of boric acid which gives very low friction......

The way boric acid works with moisture is a chemical reaction indeed.....what we get from these reactions is a full layered plates of boric acid above boric oxide film which sticks to metal......this plates are free to glide along the movement of pistons or any moving part but they are very hard if perpendiculer pressure is applied.....means they are extreme pressure resistance.....

My aim is to understand and share this novel concept.........in my view this is not DIY.....
finetuning is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th June 2007, 00:28   #176
Team-BHP Support
 
tsk1979's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 22,953
Thanked: 15,644 Times
Default

Umm some facts.
Till around 1998 Zn P and Boron were present in Large quantities in engine oil
Newer API standards restricted Zn and P contents. i.e. if you wanted your oil to be a new standard compliant, you had to reduce Zn and P. With Zn and P reduction, Boron quantity was also reduced, and while earlier oils had 250ppm and 300ppm of boron many new oils had 0 ppm of boron.
This was around 1998-2002 period when newer standards became more popular.
At this time companies marketing Boron CLS bond came into picture with their products having free boron.
Now coming to Boric acid
1. The Chemical formula of Boric acid is H3BO3
2. IF heated to 170 degrees or above, certain things happen. But engine oil temperature never crosses 170 degrees. If it reaches this level that means car is on fire and wear and tear will be the least of your concerns
3. So the other chemical reaction we have is reaction with moisture
4. For the sake of argument lets assume there is enough water in engine oil to react with Boric acid and reaction does happen
5.Then you will have B(OH)4^- ions not boric oxide(I think you meant Boric Trioxide)
6. B2O3 is boric oxide which is the magic material, but that needs 300 degrees+ temparatures. Now such temperatures will exist in engine bay, but your engine oil will never see temperatures even 1/3rd of this level

So I am unable to find where the chemical reaction takes place where Boric acid is converted to boric trioxide.
BORIC ACID
+1, and +2 Inorganic chemistry course also has these details.
Wikipedia has a basic article
Boric acid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I am not questioning boron but merely looking for a chemical reaction which will convert boric acid to boric oxide which can coat the metal.
tsk1979 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th June 2007, 18:18   #177
BHPian
 
bruty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Delhi
Posts: 232
Thanked: 6 Times
Default

guys I have read this whole thred for 3 times, but I could not find any cooments from the bhpians who has voted t screwed my car!!! Stay away from all boron compounds. Some one can please show me where ar these comments.
bruty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th June 2007, 22:57   #178
Team-BHP Support
 
tsk1979's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 22,953
Thanked: 15,644 Times
Default

Why stay away from boron compounds, boron is good, but I cannot find any chemical reaction in any book where Boric acid converts to Boron Trioxide(B2O3) below 300 degrees. If your engine oil reaches 300degrees this means your car is on fire and you need to call up insurance.
Mileage and performance would be the last thing on your mind.
tsk1979 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th June 2007, 14:15   #179
BHPian
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 393
Thanked: 9 Times
Default

If we dont find any link in books about chemical reaction doesnt mean it doesnt takes place.....condition inside engine is so different....we are forgetting extreme pressure which is responsible for formation of oxide at lower temperature....all the experiments about boron were done at atmospheric pressure but inside engine its different senario altogether.....

Here is an extremely useful lik showing the use of boron as FUEL in the coming future.....

Boron: A Better Energy Carrier than Hydrogen? (12 June 2007)
finetuning is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th June 2007, 15:09   #180
Distinguished - BHPian
 
Sam Kapasi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Mumbai (but wat
Posts: 6,989
Thanked: 1,452 Times
Default

I haden't commented so far because I had nothing constructive to add to your thread. So why say anything at all?

BUT
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979
I am unable to find where the chemical reaction takes place where Boric acid is converted to boric trioxide.

I am not questioning boron but merely looking for a chemical reaction which will convert boric acid to boric oxide which can coat the metal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by finetuning View Post
If we dont find any link in books about chemical reaction doesnt mean it doesnt takes place.

But the above statement is silly, to say the least. Almost all chemical reactions using all known compounds have been documented. In books.

Unless...

The only way to make your sentence ring true is to publicly declare that you have discovered a chemical reaction which has not been discovered so far.
Is this impossible? No, every chemical reaction has been discovered once. If you truly have discovered an undocumented chemical reaction, especially one that is of such obvious help to the automotive world, I suggest you write a documented white paper immediately, backed up with facts.

A white paper on how B2O3 is created using boric acid. If this is indeed true, I can even suggest a thesis on the conversion.

It could change your life. And many others.

Last edited by Sam Kapasi : 30th June 2007 at 15:16.
Sam Kapasi is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Adding Engine oil with Diesel. chanapli Technical Stuff 42 5th July 2017 02:05
My Experience Of Adding 2T Oil In Fuel finetuning Technical Stuff 173 26th September 2016 13:49
Battery water overfilled, Acid spill around strips007 Technical Stuff 24 7th February 2014 20:47
My Experience Of Adding Boric Acid In Petrol finetuning Technical Stuff 52 16th July 2013 20:16


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 11:45.

Copyright 2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks