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View Poll Results: I have TRIED IT and have found that ...
It works wonders for my car/bike. I highly recommend it. 22 33.85%
Slight improvement, but I recommend it. 12 18.46%
No difference at all. Don't bother trying this non-sense stuff. 17 26.15%
It screwed my car!!! Stay away from all boron compounds!!! 14 21.54%
Voters: 65. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 18th June 2006, 14:33   #31
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I really appreciate rks's effort.....yes dear my effort is totally scientific....also my effort is to ignore\delink commercial aspect of any product....indeed I had gone through each of such articles......few thing I would like to say that......PTFE was developed by dupont and is known by brand name teflon & was never intended for use as engine oil additives.....infact dupont even warned people doing this......but there is different aspect of it using as lubricative element by other manufact.......what rks mentioned is not about boron treated oils......

Now boron treatment was used by many many leading firms but only in test phase since last 10 years....this was also used by NASA in their space shuttle programms due to ts excellent pressure ...temparature resistant charecterisitcs ....we can see this by studying the information......but since this was recently commercially launched so bound to generate waves...most pf people dont understand that this is not additive but rather Metal Treatment ....this also is to be done once in the life of any engine......there are numerous information & testings done by leading companies to prove its effectives........also is true that most performance enhancement additives are harmful in many ways....if we think about Mother Nature then such invention plays major role in auto industries......almost all big auto companies are using this method....we can see this from the list....

Here is the link...http://www.carbibles.com/boron-using-or-testing.doc

Also study this....http://www.carbibles.com/boron-overview.doc

I m looking forward to completing my 1500 km run without trouble...so far no trouble.....almost 600+ km completed.....

Enjoy............

Last edited by finetuning : 18th June 2006 at 14:37.
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Old 18th June 2006, 20:30   #32
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Default I hope you did not miss this fine tuning.

In one of the links you pasted there is something about boric acid being compatible with aluminium and titanium alloys. It does not mention anything about iron which is what majority of Indian engine blocks are made off. You are lucky to have aluminium alloy engine block in your esteem but every one of my cars have a iron block so that precludes me from trying out the relatively new(1991) find which I would have in my Padmini but alas the head alone is made of aluminium alloy.

http://www.transportation.anl.gov/re...oric_acid.html
Please read the second last paragraph in the link.

Do also remember that this concoction is only stable upto 170 degree celsius. Please do correct me if I am wrong here after reading the patent link.
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5431830.html
Please read the middle of the page. Our engines reach about 400 degree celsius if I am not wrong in the proximity of the pistons.


Bye and wear your seatbelts

Last edited by drpullockaran : 18th June 2006 at 20:39.
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Old 19th June 2006, 12:46   #33
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Been reading up on the Boric acid update and a few views:

1) Boric Acid is water soluble: can collect in the oil pan and promote rusting due to presence of water in the engine
2) Oil Filter: The normal boric acid powder that you get commercially as carrom board powder is not fine enough to be passed through the oil filter hence would be collected there.
3) Boric Acid does tend to harden steel and help aluminium but do not know about Iron
4) Oil is fed through a Capillary system and can tend to get blocked due to solids in the line leading to a drop in pressure and lack of lubrication
5) No clues about high temp performance

Yes Boric acid does tend to help as a solid lubricant but still not too sure about as Soluble mixture.
Here is a good article on Boric Acid: http://www.evergreenamerica.com/Dist...PACK_BORON.doc


However a bit of further research led me to find "Boron Nitride" at http://www.advceramics.com/geac/down...ents/81506.pdf

Which is way more stable, finer with better suspension caracteristics and works great as a solid lube. However points 2 and 4 in the above list still lie unanswered.

Seriously wouldnt using a good synthetic oil suffice? This is not too put your research down but to raise another question, trust me this is true as I really did research before I posted here.

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Old 19th June 2006, 14:05   #34
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Quote:
Seriously wouldnt using a good synthetic oil suffice?
Makes much sense. If using a good synthetic engine oil like Mobil1 then there shouldn't be any need of such additives. These additives (if at all they work) may be helpful when using normal 100bucks/liter engine oils. I don't think the additives would make that much a improvement while using premium syn engine oils.
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Old 19th June 2006, 14:31   #35
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Hi all,

The essential benefits of using Boric acid is with the addition in the base lubricant....its main advantage is to improve the lubrication aspect of base lubricant when it performance starts detereorationg over time due to water...pressure....load.......so it can not be used alone.....however there are certain application where its used this way.....

It instantly reacts with water vapour present inside engine to form boric oxide....which loves to stick to any...any metal surface.....it only works better with alluminium & titanium & is recently proved....but loves to stick to all types of metals forming covalent bond....this layer is self replenishing...this phenomenon prevents further water vapour to react with open metal surface to start oxidation.....there is fine layer of self replenishing boric oxide to every little curves...crevices...inside engine hence no metal part is exposed to any kind of chemical reactions....this was never achieved by other oils so far......

No other oil right now offer advantages offered by adding boric acid in base lubricants......all lubricants have certain limitations & this is where it works....mobil 1 or other premium oils doesnt provide friction greatly to reduce metal particles entering oil...this wear & tear is to much extent stopped by this additive.....

Enjoy.......
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Old 19th June 2006, 14:57   #36
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Okay i understand. But then why is it that the oil companies are not adding boric acid in the oil if the resuslts are that good?

As you said it's self replenishing, don't you think there's a high chance of tiny oil passage ways getting blocked by these deposits?
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Old 19th June 2006, 16:43   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sankar
Okay i understand. But then why is it that the oil companies are not adding boric acid in the oil if the resuslts are that good?

As you said it's self replenishing, don't you think there's a high chance of tiny oil passage ways getting blocked by these deposits?
Dear Sankar,

Its commercial aspect why oil companies not adding boric acid....its patented technology.....Its same like Mr Somender Singhs groove technology not being implemented by leading auto companies inspite of excellent results all over the world......

The particle size of boric acid to be added is from 0.2 to 40 micron which doesnt block oil passage ....fine layer of boric oxide is so thin(I dont remember the thickness of layer but its extremly thin)..it cant block oil passages..... its tested in depth before its commercial launch.....

Main charecteristic is to reduce coeffient of friction.....it can reduce from 10% to 1000%....below those of base lubricant into which its added.....

Enjoy....
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Old 19th June 2006, 17:11   #38
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Here is the excellent illustration.......

FACT OR FRICTION

Lubrication


Lubrication is the act of applying lubricants and lubrication

substances which are capable of reducing friction between

moving mechanical parts




Asperities


All surfaces, no matter how smooth they may appear to the unaided

eye, when sufficiently magnified are rough and uneven. This

unevenness is know as asperities.


Asperities


Asperities when rubbed together generate particulate




Friction Consumes Power


Friction is the resistance to relative motion between two

bodies in contact. According to the Department of

Energy, 62.4% of energy is lost to friction in the engine

resulting in the loss of fuel, horsepower & components


Greatest friction occurs by particles the same size as the oil film thickness




Adhesion and Cohesion


Adhesion is the property of a lubricant that causes it too stick or adhere to the parts lubricated.

Cohesion is the property which holds a lubricant together and resist a breakdown of the lubricant under pressure.


Adhesion


Cohesion


Moving Surface


Oil molecules


Oil molecules slide over each other




Relationship of Friction, Cohesion, Adhesion and Lubrication


Friction always consumes power and produces heat


Any fluid when placed between two surfaces tends to keep them apart and change sliding friction into fluid friction, thus they are said to be lubricated


The extent to which lubrication reduces the friction between two surfaces is governed by two factors: 1) The selection of the fluid which has the best proportion of cohesive & adhesive properties. 2) The amount of pressure between the two surfaces


To insure lubrication, the layer of fluid must be kept intact, the greater the pressure the more difficult this becomes




3 Common Types of Wear as a Result of Friction


Surface Roughness


Denting Affect


(1) ABRASIVE WEAR


(2) ADHESION


(3) SURFACE FATIGUE


Weld Junctions


Stress Risers


Cutting away


*High pressure pump

*Bearings

*Gears

*Rings & cylinders

*Valves

*Seals





Tribology


Since the late 1960’s the field of Tribology – the study of

friction, wear and lubrication in fluid systems - has

developed sophisticated tests to gain much knowledge into

the effects of friction and ways to reduce friction in order

to reduce wear, heat and particle contamination.




The Problem


Friction and heat cause the destruction of asperities resulting in metal particles interrupting the oil film between two surfaces generating more particles


These particles react with moisture, impurities and lubricant additives creating corrosive acids that further pit the surface creating new asperities


These acids oxidize the lubricant, accelerate wear and rapidly deteriorate the functions of the lubricant resulting in the 3-common wears in the fluid system



Thus far you have seen the effects of friction and the challenge facing

lubricants under pressure, heat and particle contamination


PARTICLES UNDER 5 CAUSE THE MOST COMPONENT DAMAGE

-Dr. E. Rabinowicz of M.I.T. (American Society Of Lubrication Engineers 1981)




5 Functions of the Lubricant


Friction Reduction

Seal

Heat removal

Cleanse

Absorb Shock




Challenge of the Lubricant


A good lubricant must reduce particulate wear from the interaction of metal-metal contact

Even the best lubricants degrade over time, as a result of friction and chemical in the additive package reacting with particulate, moisture, heat and oxygen resulting in acidic properties

These acids react with the metal surface causing micro-pitting (asperities) and the vicious cycle begins anew

The very anti-wear additive package designed to protect metal-metal contact, turns acidic and become part of the problem




The Downfall of Lubricants


The typical downfall of a lubricant occurs as a result of an imperfect, temporary and sacrificial boundary layer between surfaces allowing asperity-asperity contact thus introducing particulate into the lube

Heat, moisture, air, and metal particulates combined with certain additives interact causing acids which micro pit the surfaces and oxidizes the oil

The efficiency & longevity of a lubricant dramatically increases as the asperity-asperity contact decreases

The goal is to reduce friction through a solid and permanent boundary layer on the surfaces






Boundary Additives



The intent of boundary additives are to form a boundary layer of molecules to prevent surface-surface contact

Additives in use are Graphite, Molybdenum, Zinc, Phosphorous, and Sulfur

Downside of these additives are their chemical reaction with metal and other contaminates such as moisture causing them to become acidic, corrosive and a part of the problem they are intended to solve

These additives are also highly toxic; such as Zinc that is linked to cancer and other illnesses

The field of Tribology over the years has researched for a solid boundary lubricant that is biodegradable and permanent.





The Present Condition of Friction


Loss of horsepower or power in hydraulics

Graduated loss of fuel economy

Frequent oil drains due to degradation

Component wear

Increased emissions

Rising maintenance cost

Rising labor cost



Dept. Of Energy




18% Decrease in Horsepower


Cummins engine


Extending oil drains without friction protection

this engine dropped from 365 HP to 300HP


“Wear promoted by particles (under 10) leads to diminished fuel efficiency,

reduced component life, oil service, and power output”

-Needelman, Filtration For Wear Control & Affects of Contamination








America's First National Laboratory



THE


DISCOVERY




The “Big Bang” Discovery In

Friction Reduction Technology


Following years of research in support of the US space program, a discovery in 1990 by scientist at the prestigious Argonne National Laboratory redefined the potential of lubrication technology


Argonne Website: www.anl.gov




The Discovery


In 1991 the DOE patented boric acid as a solid boundary-layer lubricant. Developed by Dr. Erdemir, Boron CLS Bond was the result of years of research at the Argonne National Laboratories Tribology Department under the Department of Energy

Winner of the prestigious R&D 100 award

Holds a U.S. DOE Government patent #5,431,830

BORON CLS BOND has been tested worldwide under the harshest conditions with millions spent and producing the same consistent results every time

Written up in Journals of Tribology. Lubrication Engineers and many other publications as a self replenishing solid boundary lubricant




The Technology


Biodegradable Boric Acid is used to form a permanent solid boundary layer lubricant

on Metal Surfaces


NO additive in oil has the ability to form a

permanent solid boundary layer




Step One: Boric Acid is Introduced



METAL SUBSTRATE


METAL SUBSTRATE



BORIC ACID


A new permanent surface is about to be created




Step 2:
Interaction between Boric Acid, moisture and the metallic substrate forms Boric Oxide



METAL SUBSTRATE


METAL SUBSTRATE


BORIC OXIDE


H2O


AIR




Step 3:
Boric Oxide bonds to the metallic substrate
and forms a solid surface barrier on the substrate preventing metal-to-metal contact.


METAL SUBSTRATE


METAL SUBSTRATE


BORIC OXIDE


BORIC OXIDE


Boric Acid


85% hardness of a diamond




Step 4:
Interaction between Boric Oxide and moisture
reforms Boric Acid into crystalline platelets


METAL SUBSTRATE


METAL SUBSTRATE


BORIC OXIDE


BORIC OXIDE


BORIC ACID PLATELETS


An effective new technology protecting surfaces




Step 5:
Crystalline Boric Acid Platelets
Form Crystal Lattice Structure - CLS


Electron micro-

photograph of

boric acid Crystal

Lattice Structure

(15 micron field

Of view)


Like a deck of brand new playing cards sliding over each other




Step 6:
Boric Acid platelets align themselves parallel
to the metal surface and conform to the direction
of movement



METAL SUBSTRATE


METAL SUBSTRATE


BORIC OXIDE


BORIC OXIDE


“70% of component replacement is the result of surface degradation” –Dr. Rabinowitz, MIT at American Society of Engineers workshop




NO LUBRICANT CAN ACHIEVE THIS LOW COEFFICIENT


EXTREME LOW FRICTION COEFFICIENT* LESS THAN 0.01% (80% REDUCTION IN FRICTION)


*The ratio of the force that maintains contact between

an object and a surface and the frictional force that resists the motion of the object.



Virtually eliminates particle generation




Step 7:
Weak van-der-Waals forces* between the
crytalline layers allows very low friction movement between layers



METAL SUBSTRATE


METAL SUBSTRATE


BORIC OXIDE


BORIC OXIDE


Weak inter-platelet bonds


*A weak attractive force between atoms or nonpolar molecules






Resists High Pressure


EXTREME PRESSURE PERFORMANCE


LOAD




Extreme hardness of crystalline structures prevents metal-to-metal contact when load is applied


METAL SUBSTRATE


METAL SUBSTRATE


BORIC OXIDE


BORIC OXIDE


LOAD




Step 7:
Self-renewing cycle: Interaction between Boric Acid, Boric Oxide, Air and Moisture leads to self-replenishing cycle.


BORIC ACID


BORIC OXIDE


MOISTURE


AIR + MOISTURE




Lubrication Performance


Friction Coefficient Less Than 0.01

Timken Load Greater Than 90+

Reduces wear up to 90%

Reduces Friction up to 80%

Increases Engine Efficiency 5-7%+

Increases Fuel Efficiency 2-12%+

Reduces Friction Heat 40-50%





Added Values


Biostat

Anti-Corrosive

Anti-Oxidant

Reactive Coating

Water Resistant

Displaces carbon, varnish and sludge previously built up in Engine/machinery

Prevents deposit formation in new engines





TEST RESULTS


Visit test results at http://www.evergreenamerica.com/technology/test.html




Partial Test List


Pin on disk

Ball on three disk

Friction Coefficient

HFRR

Engine test:

Fuel consumption, emissions, horsepower

Scar width

Spectrographic analysis


Timken load

Corrosion

Oxidation

Prevention & protection from deposit formation

… And more





Engine Oil Treatment Test
Test performed at BNM Research, Sweden in March 2002


Test indicated a 5% reduction in fuel consumption. Long term

benefits are reduced wear due to reduced friction

Significant reduction of metal residue in drain oil

Significant reduction of corrosion





Diesel Fuel Treatment Test
Test performed at BNM Research, Sweden in March 2002


Results indicate a >5% increase in fuel economy

Long term reduced wear, due to reduced friction

Lower emissions (HC)




Pin On Disk Test


With diesel fuel treatment, grease, gear/engine

treatment combined with different ceramic compounds


Low sulfur diesel fuel

without Boron CLS Bond


Low sulfur diesel fuel with

Boron CLS Bond Treatment




Corrosion


Standard comparative corrosion test using metal

in a corrosive environment


Boron CLS Bond resists corrosion even in salt water


The most Advanced Friction
Reduction Technology Available


Argonne Tribology Labs has contributed the greatest

development in lubrication and friction reduction

technology available today.
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Old 20th June 2006, 11:05   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by finetuning
Dear Sankar,

Its commercial aspect why oil companies not adding boric acid....its patented technology.....Its same like Mr Somender Singhs groove technology not being implemented by leading auto companies inspite of excellent results all over the world......

The particle size of boric acid to be added is from 0.2 to 40 micron which doesnt block oil passage ....fine layer of boric oxide is so thin(I dont remember the thickness of layer but its extremly thin)..it cant block oil passages..... its tested in depth before its commercial launch.....

Main charecteristic is to reduce coeffient of friction.....it can reduce from 10% to 1000%....below those of base lubricant into which its added.....

Enjoy....
The oil companies are rich and spend hundreds of millions of dollars per year on research. If it is a simple matter of adding carrom powder to engine oil and reaping huge benefits, the oil companies would have done so and paid the royalty for the patent -- the benefits accrued would far outweigh the royalty. The patent was issued in the 90's. It appears that the oil companies and a whole lot of others are still developing and testing this technology. Why do you think their approach is so slow, cautious and methodical? Why didn't they just rush out and add carrom powder to engine oil and come to conclusions after a 1500 kms test, like you seem inclined to do? And as someone pointed out, carrom powder may not have the fineness required for the suspension to pass through oil filters and other narrow passages. And I have serious doubts about a product made for carrom board having the necessary purity to be added to engine oil.
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Old 20th June 2006, 14:08   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rks
The oil companies are rich and spend hundreds of millions of dollars per year on research. If it is a simple matter of adding carrom powder to engine oil and reaping huge benefits, the oil companies would have done so and paid the royalty for the patent -- the benefits accrued would far outweigh the royalty. The patent was issued in the 90's. It appears that the oil companies and a whole lot of others are still developing and testing this technology. Why do you think their approach is so slow, cautious and methodical? Why didn't they just rush out and add carrom powder to engine oil and come to conclusions after a 1500 kms test, like you seem inclined to do? And as someone pointed out, carrom powder may not have the fineness required for the suspension to pass through oil filters and other narrow passages. And I have serious doubts about a product made for carrom board having the necessary purity to be added to engine oil.
Hi,

Indeed they spend millions on research but since this product is very new....and also in evauation phase for many companies.....any new technique which has such capability passes through vigourous tests before commercial launch and this takes time......also carrom board powder is never intended to be used with carrom...its a pharma product to be used for medicinal purpose but then using it in carrom it another subject.My addition of carrom powder is the easy availability of it over the counter....may be they using specially prepared powder to be used in oil but we cant find it easily.... I dont remember any powder manufacturer manufacturing especially for carrom......also to adopt\use the patented technology is the commercial apsect & they proceed only when tested & proven....so only time will tell that how many adopts this.....this experiment was done just to test the beneficial effect of boric acid lubricant......in no way oil companies come into picture........I advise u to find the best available lubricant fullfilling all requirement and compare it with boron treated lubricant........

Enjoy.....
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Old 22nd June 2006, 14:58   #41
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Hi all,

I m feeling remarkable improvement in the performance of car.....especially after 40....car speed up so well...its better then before.......I m so much amazed with this......as being driving it on lpg.........to avoid boric acid particle passing through minute engine parts....I filtered it with doble layer cotton cloth twice....also crushed the powder to break down lumps.....as far as I know....available powder is in the range of 10 to 20 micron......I may be wrong but enjoying driving with smoothness & more power.....

Enjoy.....
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Old 22nd June 2006, 23:01   #42
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hi finetuning,

I am amazed at your tenacity and the will to gamble with your car. I have tried your acetone "therapy" and continue to do so. I would take some more time and research on the boric acid/carrom powder thing to try it.

you must keep up this good work of research as it makes this excellent forum even better.

Thumbs up.
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Old 23rd June 2006, 01:48   #43
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In principle, the concept sounds fantastic. Having read through & explored most of the links above, I have to agree that the concept should work.

However, am not too sure how well it would work with the 'carrom' grade powder available commercially in most shops - the mix needs to have microscopic or fine ground particles suspended in engine oil... which brings me to finetuning...

Kudos to you man, for willing to experiment with your own vehicle, both on the acetone/gasoline as well as the boric powder/engine oil combos. It's people like you who take the risk, & also practically invite ridicule on 'knowlegable' fora such as these.

This may or may not work, & the rest of us will be better off knowing that you tried.

I think that we all owe you a vote of thanks for your efforts & your reports - I, for one, have subscribed to this thread & eagerly await your results. I'll PM you my number, so please do get in touch with me.

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Old 6th July 2006, 18:16   #44
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Has this decoction been tried on a diesel? If yes, then the results please...
Quote:
Originally Posted by finetuning
Hi all,

The patent illustration link is

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...&RS=PN/5431830

I m running 95 esteem with lpg & petrol....driving is normal....i mean to say in city like Mumbai there is no scope of anything in peak hours......

I found that engine oil additives are either sulpher or chlorine or graphites which are very toxic in nature....also when they work in extreme temparature their vapours are very very toxic at exhaust end....so its a very huge problem disposing used engine oil....its so toxic that if spilled in open areas can kill plants ...trees...& damage soils....against this.....this treatment is very safe...no such harmful effect....I was so much excited with this...also friction reduction up to 80% is proved at various labs internationally.....so wear & tear...so I decided to try.....

Since boron treated metal surface becomes corrosion resistant...its a good option for our engines...most wear & tear also occurs due to acid formation in combustion process........I was totally convinced by so many benefit of this wonderful treatment.....I m also very happy to share with u all....

Enjoy.....
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Old 7th July 2006, 15:26   #45
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Hi all,

Almost 1200 km run over with boric acid added in engine oil....also boric acid added in gear oil.....I must say that car run definitely more smoother & responsive then earlier......smoothness can be felt on highway long driving with constant speed of 60--90......feeling while driving is like gliding on the road.....

Initially I felt slight drop in performance...then I retuned the engine & carburetor.....as more & more driving done...car became smoother &smoother.....at one point of time it was like my earlier set up with much smoothness & throttle response.....I then again readjusted the carburetor setting.....its working in good condition....

I m very much happy with my gear shift.....its very very smooth....earlier I used to put some effort engaging the gears but right now with a gentle touch I can change the gears....boric acid powder added in gear oil after filtering the mixture is not harmful if added in right proportion.....I think even less then 5% by weight of oil (1% )can also be tried.....

There is no visible change in mileage as its only 2 full tank of lpg used.....I expect it to increase in next full tank based on current condition.....but I m happy with the performance..........

Enjoy.............
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