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Old 6th November 2013, 17:32   #16
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Default re: Linea Diesel: No one is able to solve engine problem EDIT: Now solved !

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Last edited by GTO : 7th November 2013 at 13:00.
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Old 6th November 2013, 19:57   #17
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Default re: Linea Diesel: No one is able to solve engine problem EDIT: Now solved !

@ Ash_bn, That error however would not say that the turbo hose has a leak. It would just say that there is insufficient boost pressure and that is why the CEL comes on. There are instances where there is a leak and the CEL does not come on, too.

Black smoke, loss of power and FE, it is a straight giveaway that there is a cut in one of the turbo hoses. It is quite common in the Punto/Linea.

Last edited by GTO : 7th November 2013 at 13:02. Reason: Quoted post deleted
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Old 6th November 2013, 23:15   #18
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Default re: Linea Diesel: No one is able to solve engine problem EDIT: Now solved !

Quote:
Originally Posted by dhanushs View Post
The symptoms you have mentioned point out to a Turbo/Boost related issue. However, as the CEL has come up, there will be a specific code as to why the light has come up.

Please ask the showroom guys for the code, post it here. You might be able to get more detailed help, as a lot has already been done.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DRIV3R View Post
That error however would not say that the turbo hose has a leak. It would just say that there is insufficient boost pressure and that is why the CEL comes on. There are instances where there is a leak and the CEL does not come on, too.

Black smoke, loss of power and FE, it is a straight giveaway that there is a cut in one of the turbo hoses. It is quite common in the Punto/Linea.
Came back from ASS, today they did intake manifold cleaning,but again on test drive same error came up. The errors that are coming up:
P0238 - TURBO Pressure.
P0110- Air Temp Sensor.
P0100- Air Flow meter.

During the trial run car was not going up more than 60-65 at 3K RPM, but mechanic said it's fine. After much argument they took vehicle and came back after changing one of the inlet hoses, now smoke is little bit reduced but again very marginal increase in the pick up. Now after much discussion they have agreed to source new TC and will swap it with mine but they said it might not show any performance increase but still I've asked them to do a swap.

While waiting for my car I did a test drive on test vehicle with almost 80K on ODO (Exactly double of mine) and still at 2K RPM it was giving good boost while mine is still feeling sleepy at 3K RPM. Is there any set parameter by which I can judge that my car is dong well i.e. at 2 or 3K RPM ideally car should be above 60 or 80 etc?? as otherwise ASS people are just forcing me to take vehicle back.

One more thing all thee above errors are coming when car is around 3000 RPM else it's working perfectly fine at low RPM.

Last edited by GTO : 7th November 2013 at 13:01. Reason: Quoted post deleted
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Old 7th November 2013, 00:18   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Travelbug View Post
P0238 - TURBO Pressure.
P0238 - FIAT Turbo/Super Charger Boost Sensor A Circuit High

Linea Diesel: No one is able to solve engine problem EDIT: Now solved !-p0238.jpg

Possible causes
- Open or short circuit condition
- Poor electrical connection
- Faulty Boost Sensor

Symptoms
- Engine Light ON (or Service Engine Soon Warning Light)

SOURCE: http://www.carobdcode.com/p0238-fiat...h#.UnqONPnIvyU

------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travelbug View Post
P0110- Air Temp Sensor.
P0110 - FIAT Intake Air Temperature Sensor 1 Circuit

Linea Diesel: No one is able to solve engine problem EDIT: Now solved !-p0110.jpg

Possible causes
- Faulty Intake Air Temperature (IAT) sensor
- Dirty air filter
- Intake Air Temperature (IAT) sensor harness is open or shorted
- Intake Air Temperature (IAT) sensor circuit poor electrical connection

What about the obd code?
An excessively low or high voltage from the sensor is sent to ECM.

Symptoms
- Engine Light ON (or Service Engine Soon Warning Light)

P0110-FIAT Description

The Intake Air Temperature (IAT) sensor is built into mass air flow sensor or in some vehicles mounted to the air filter duct housing. The sensor detects intake air temperature and transmits a signal to the Engine Control Module (ECM). The temperature sensing unit uses a thermistor which is sensitive to the change in temperature. Electrical resistance of the thermistor decreases in response to the temperature rise. The Intake Air Temperature signal is used as an input for various systems in the vehicle

SOURCE: http://www.carobdcode.com/p0110-fiat...t#.UnqOL_nIvyU

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travelbug View Post
P0100- Air Flow meter.
P0100 - FIAT Mass Air Flow or Volume Air Flow Sensor Circuit

Linea Diesel: No one is able to solve engine problem EDIT: Now solved !-p0100.jpg

Possible causes
- Faulty mass air flow sensor
- Intake air leaks
- Dirty mass air flow sensor
- Dirty mass air filter
- Mass air flow sensor harness is open or shorted
- Mass air flow sensor circuit poor electrical connection

Tech description
Before replacing the mass air flow sensor, try replacing the air filter and cleaning the air flow sensor with low compress air or mass air flow sensor cleaner. Reset code and drive vehicle. If the code comes back, it may be necessary to replaced the mass air flow sensor.

What about the obd code?
- A high voltage from the sensor is sent to Engine Control Module (ECM) under light load driving condition.
- A low voltage from the sensor is sent to ECM

Symptoms
- Engine Light ON (or Service Engine Soon Warning Light)
- Engine stall
- Engine running rough
- Excessive fuel consumption
- Excessive smoke

P0100 FIAT Description
The Mass Air Flow (MAF) sensor is placed in the stream of intake air. It measures the intake flow rate by measuring a part of the entire intake flow. It consists of a hot film that is supplied with electric current from the Engine Control Module (ECM).

The temperature of the hot film is controlled by the ECM a certain amount. The heat generated by the hot film is reduced as the intake air flows around it. The more air, the greater the heat loss. Therefore, the ECM must supply more electric current to maintain the temperature of the hot film as air flow increases. The ECM detects the air flow by means of this current change.

SOURCE: http://www.carobdcode.com/p0100-fiat...t#.UnqOPfnIvyU

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travelbug View Post
During the trial run car was not going up more than 60-65 at 3K RPM, but mechanic said it's fine.
Was this in 5th gear? If that is in 5th gear then it is revving high.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travelbug View Post
Now after much discussion they have agreed to source new TC and will swap it with mine but they said it might not show any performance increase but still I've asked them to do a swap.
Cool. Lets see if that helps. Check the sensors for the each code that you have got.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travelbug View Post
Is there any set parameter by which I can judge that my car is dong well i.e. at 2 or 3K RPM ideally car should be above 60 or 80 etc??
80 kmph @ 5th gear = 1900 RPM
100 kmph @ 5th gear = 2300 RPM.

The above values are for the Ritz VDi. So expect your car to be in that range.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travelbug View Post
One more thing all thee above errors are coming when car is around 3000 RPM else it's working perfectly fine at low RPM.
May be the turbo boost sensor or blow off valve / waste gate malfunctioning is happening which is getting the errors on.

Cheers,
Anurag.
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Old 7th November 2013, 07:28   #20
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Default re: Linea Diesel: No one is able to solve engine problem EDIT: Now solved !

Hi,
I might be entirely wrong. However I had had just the same problem in a Ford Fiesta TDCi, about 55K on the odo. I recon the basic system is same. I do not expect the fuel injectors at fault. Like to suggest two jobs in sequence : a) Replace the speed sensor
- Check improvement b) Change the oxygen sensor- note improvement. Please do not rely on the "sensor' checking- just change them , these sensors once they are aged behave differently during test and continuous operation. Last of all get the throttle body cleaned. expect this will solve your trouble.
Best regards.
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Old 7th November 2013, 07:50   #21
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Default re: Linea Diesel: No one is able to solve engine problem EDIT: Now solved !

Guys, the thing threw up three codes. No need to rake your brains anymore. First you need to fix whatever it is that threw those codes.

A whole list of possible causes has already been given per code, so you need to work your way down, checking each and everyone, until all these codes disappear. That's just how it is.

On all three there are a few easy things to check, poor electrical connection, shorts, dirt. Take all those connectors off, clean them, put them back together with some dielectric grease. Before you do, check the relevant one for short circuits. Do a really thorough visual inspection of the air intake circuits and all its components as one of the possible causes might be a leak.

Check dirt deposits on the Mass air flow and check air filter. All of the above is 30 minutes work tops, and you don't need any special tools, other than a multimeter.

There is one other simple test you can do, which takes even less time; Start the engine and with the engine idling, wriggle around with the various suspected connectors, wiring and respective sensors. Just slightly. If you hear the engine sound change up or down, you might have stumbled on something.

When you've done the easy bits of troubleshooting and none of the codes has disappeared, or only one or two, you could try fixing or replacing the respective sensors. If you google around a bit, I'm sure you will be able to find specific test values for each sensor and usually a good multimeter will allow you to do these test, before ripping them out and replacing them.

I would follow the above sequence as I'm not familiar with this car. Experienced car mechanics that know the car well, usually have seen similar problems and they would likely start by looking at the bits they've seen going wonky before.

Still, most electrical/electrical problems tend to be very basis, poor connection, poor ground etc.

I would not do anything else, like replacing oxygen sensor. There is no code that indicates it could be a problem.

When you have an OBD equipped car, trouble shooting becomes much more easy. Replacing or doing anything not related to the current codes doesn't make sense to me at all.

With the problems described and without these codes, my first guess would have been air intake leak and or problem with the Air Mass flow meter. But you actually have a few more possibilities, based on the codes.

Good luck.

Jeroen
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Old 7th November 2013, 11:48   #22
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Default re: Linea Diesel: No one is able to solve engine problem EDIT: Now solved !

All three codes point to one thing - No Boost. This coupled with the physical symptoms of the car, certainly points to a turbo/plumbing issue.

Please get it checked from a reputed workshop.
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Old 7th November 2013, 15:35   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dhanushs View Post
All three codes point to one thing - No Boost. This coupled with the physical symptoms of the car, certainly points to a turbo/plumbing issue.

Please get it checked from a reputed workshop.
So you mean it could get solved partially with a change in Turbo Charger and its plumbing?

Anurag.
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Old 7th November 2013, 17:15   #24
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Default re: Linea Diesel: No one is able to solve engine problem EDIT: Now solved !

You solve it by consistently working your way through the various possible causes as stated. It is still very likely an electrical (connection) fault because as you will see that is the common denominator in all three codes/

I don't understand when the solution, investigate the possible causes as indicated by the codes, is staring us in the face, we are still talking about different solutions and swapping out parts? That is just trial and error.

You solve problem by applying logicical analytical fact finding. All done by your OBD readings. Then work your way down the possible causes.

Your problem might be finding a competent mechanic that wants to take that approach. Everyting else, is very likely to be a waste of time and money.

Jeroen
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Old 7th November 2013, 20:54   #25
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Default re: Linea Diesel: No one is able to solve engine problem EDIT: Now solved !

Quote:
Originally Posted by a4anurag View Post
So you mean it could get solved partially with a change in Turbo Charger and its plumbing?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
... It is still very likely an electrical (connection) fault because as you will see that is the common denominator in all three codes/
  1. The errors are all related to sensors in the intake manifold.
  2. Assume there is a problem in turbo/boost and enough boost is not there. Then the air temperature would drastically change, air flow would change, and obviously boost also. Hence, my guess is that, because of less boost, these errors are shown.
Also, the physical symptoms
Quote:
1) No\Zero pick up.
2) Thick black smoke deposit on the bumper.
3) Car feels dead whenever need of acceleration.
Very much point to a boost issue.
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Old 7th November 2013, 21:29   #26
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Default re: Linea Diesel: No one is able to solve engine problem EDIT: Now solved !

Quote:
Originally Posted by dhanushs View Post
  1. The errors are all related to sensors in the intake manifold.
  2. Assume there is a problem in turbo/boost and enough boost is not there. Then the air temperature would drastically change, air flow would change, and obviously boost also. Hence, my guess is that, because of less boost, these errors are shown.
Also, the physical symptoms

Very much point to a boost issue.
No idea what a boost issue is in this context? What needs fixing and why? Why is it not an electronic/electrical problem, a sensor problem? Pleas explain in a factual, logical fashion.

By the way, air temperature tends to be measured at or near the Air Mass flow meter, so it tends to be more or less ambient temperature, give or take. Usually it does not have that much of an influence on the actual running of your engine, although it can cause the CEL to light up, mainly because of emission criteria. If anything else is out of whack it could add to the problems of course.

What I'm trying to say is that we have three codes and unless you work you way down the various possible causes everything else is trial and error at best.

I have read many threads and posts on this forum where people rant and rave about the complexity on modern cars etc. etc.

Here's a very interesting proof point. A modern car, OBD enabled, we have three codes with concrete possible causes and you just need to work your way down.

I can not even begin to fathom why there are still posts that suggest anything else? The analytical/logical trouble shooting has been done for us by the OBD reading.

What does posting "its a boost issue" add to that???

I'm not discounting that it might be something different, but it simply does not make any sense whatsoever, not to check first and foremost, the various causes as suggested by OBD codes.

Tell me what the logic is in giving your opinion in view of three OBD codes. If they have no bearing on the problem, why in God's name do you think the whole of the car industry complies to this OBD standard?

I'm really appalled by the apparent lack of understanding and therefor subsequent cause of action that needs to be taken. If you don't understand the meaning of these OBD codes, or don't believe in it, you should say so. And everybody can make up their mind as to what is relevant.

But I find it very frustrating that the solution is literally staring us in the face and we're still offering all sorts of other, no doubt well intended, advice.

But I will tell you one thing; anybody with just a smidgen of understanding of modern car electronics will read the codes and work their way down the possible causes. How you do that is to a certain extent a matter of experience and or personal preference. But to go off at a completely different angle and just start trial and error ripping and replacing would be foolhardy to say the least.

I know there is people, even at reputable dealers, out there that even when they have codes, still want to free wheel it. Sorry, its just a lack of skills, competence and attitude. Pure luck if they fix it. Nothing else.

i think this thread has become an excellent example of what I have said in a several other threads on this very topic. Very few people seem to be able to understand and to fully comprehend modern engine management system. They are not more complex necessarily than pre-elecronic/OBD times, but they do require different tools, different skills, different competence and a different attitude as how to proceed. Its very fact driven and logical, albeit maybe a bit abstract, but it has been proven by those who apply this regime rigorously to fix your problems in the most efficient way.

To me, as I tried to explain before, it is very straight forwarded. Within an hour you should be able to verify any and all of the possible causes as suggested by the OBD codes. Only if that doesn't lead to success should you start thinking about something different.

Good luck with sorting this problem.

Jeroen
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Old 7th November 2013, 21:48   #27
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Default re: Linea Diesel: No one is able to solve engine problem EDIT: Now solved !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
But I find it very frustrating that the solution is literally staring us in the face and we're still offering all sorts of other, no doubt well intended, advice.
Sir,

I've been using the OBD reader in my car since the last three years and have solved few issues using it. Example: http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...-6-petrol.html (Solved: Error P2135 & P2176 in Ford Fiesta 1.6 Petrol)

... and with my limited experience, I'm having a hunch that all these three errors added to the physical symptoms are thrown because of a leak somewhere in the turbo plumbing. I voiced it.

If its wrong or I lack understanding, or belief in Engine Management, can you please help me with: What you think will be the cause of, P0110, P0238 and P0100?. And, can you please explain why the car is behaving the way it is, due to these error codes?

Last edited by dhanushs : 7th November 2013 at 21:58.
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Old 7th November 2013, 22:38   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dhanushs View Post
Sir,

I've been using the OBD reader in my car since the last three years and have solved few issues using it. Example: http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...-6-petrol.html (Solved: Error P2135 & P2176 in Ford Fiesta 1.6 Petrol)

... and with my limited experience, I'm having a hunch that all these three errors added to the physical symptoms are thrown because of a leak somewhere in the turbo plumbing. I voiced it.

If its wrong or I lack complete understanding, or belief in Engine Management: What do you think will be the cause of, P0110, P0238 and P0100?. And, can you please explain why the car is behaving the way it is, due to these error codes?
There appear to be at least two problems with the engine. It shows CEL and it appears there is an issue with the engine performance. There could be different reasons for both the problems or it could be the same. As one of the codes suggest an air leak could be the problem. But so could be a problem with Air Mass meter and that could be as little as a corroded contact in a connector.

Both would give you identical problems. A CEL and poor engine performance. So would various combinations of the various causes between the three codes. So you just need to work your way down systematically.

If it is indeed a leak I don't see the immediate correlation to P0110 or even P0238. To put it differently if it is an air leak why would you have these two codes. You never know, they might disappears.

All I'm saying that you should not jump to conclusions but work your way down to the various causes as indicated. If you want to start with looking for the air leak first, because that's what you experienced, I'm all for it. Nothing wrong with that. But I don't think it is prudent to suggest that it will be the cause.

I gave my trouble shooting sequence which is more or less based on easy and fast elimination of possible causes, including air leaks. Once you have the codes and unless there is a true direct correlation or rather denominator between them, I just don't spend time or energy in trying to think it through. Most of these checks are very easy and quickly done, but you simply can't discount anything at this point of time in the trouble shooting. I could have done all of the relevant checks and test in less time than it has taken me to type these few posts of this topics.

Hunches are great, especially if based on lots of experience. My approach is to let logic and facts prevail and look at those first and then add my hunches and experiences to fine tune. Because going by hunches and experience to me is to some extent trial and error, rather than a solid analytical and methodoligical approach.

Your post mentions: "very much point to a boost issue".

That appears to be very factual, solid, no argument necessary. Whereas I understand what you meant to say is: I have a hunch it might be a boost issue, because I've experienced something similar.

Very different statements altogether.

My approach is more look to at all the facts, then use my hunches/experiences to weed them down as fast as I can, before submitting any final reasons. Because in all honesty, I really don't know. I can guess at it. I can list you several cases of similar problems I've encountered. But I won't, because I just don't believe that to be the correct approach. I've worked on cars and engines just about my whole life. Unless, it is obviously near 100% certainly clear what the problem is and how to solve it, I will refrain from doing so and I will stick to pointing out what I believe is to be the best overall best and quickest approach with the best change of nailing the problem and finding the solution. I don't like jumping to conclusion unless I'm very sure.

Maybe you have more experience then me, so you can make that jump in one go and be spot on. If you 're not, maybe you should temper your statements to that affect, as I think it would increase their relevance for the other forum members.

Lastly, as I tried to point out, your reasoning is not correct. The air temperature doesn't change because of lack of boost. At least not in this context, because the temperature gets measured before boost. Neither does the air flow change dramatically because of change of temperature.

In a simplistic approach the airflow is directly proportional to the amount of fuel being injected. If there is an air leak that ratio gets affected, any problem with the signal of the Air Mass Flow meter gives the exact same symptoms. As per the probable causes as listed in the OBD codes there are several reasons the flow meter could be wonky. In addition a very dirty air intake filter might well give you similar symptoms.

And I could go on. I'd be the first to concur with you it could be a leak, and I have seen numerous, it is by no means the only logical explanation to the engine performance problem and or the CEL coming on. So therefor my advise remains the same, work your way down logically through the various causes.

Jeroen
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Old 9th November 2013, 09:18   #29
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Hi All,

Thanks for all your inputs. They were unable to identify the problem hence they cleaned up everything related TC and Exhaust manifold. In the end they just replaced the inlet hose and now all error codes are gone and car is running fine. They were also unable to tell me that why they have changed inlet hose when they told it was fine, one of the mechanic said that sometimes even they do not have any rational explanation for things :-)
Once again thanks to all members.

Vikas
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Old 9th November 2013, 09:39   #30
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Default re: Linea Diesel: No one is able to solve engine problem EDIT: Now solved !

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Hi All,

In the end they just replaced the inlet hose and now all error codes are gone and car is running fine.
Thank you for the update Travelbug. Good to know the issue is sorted out.This thread indeed turned out to be a good discussion where I learned quite a number things.
Also just for information sake may I know the cost of the repair and if the car in under warranty did they cover this as part of the same.
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