Go Back   Team-BHP > Under the Hood > Technical Stuff


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 14th December 2013, 11:49   #1
Senior - BHPian
 
extreme_torque's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 3,546
Thanked: 1,318 Times
Default Maruti WagonR: Excessive oil consumption

Guys,

I bought a used 2006 Wagon-R as a temporary runabout until I get a new car for myself. It is a different matter altogether that after running it for close to 12k kilometers in the last six months, I have fallen for its combination of size, incredible practicality and very tractable engine which make it one of the easiest to drive in congested cities.

The problem is that the car is consuming engine oil but there are no signs to show that there is a problem with the engine. I bought the car when it was at 40k kms. It was run only on petrol and I got the odometer mileage confirmed via Maruti Authorized service center since it got serviced only at A$$. The shock came at first oil change when it drained only close to 2.5 liters of engine oil (Capacity 3.5 liters). I thought may be during its last service, the A$$ screwed up and did not fill in the right quantity of oil. Anyways I got the oil changed and started to observe. I have now run almost 5k's since the oil change and the oil level is already below the half way mark on the dipstick. Now for the things I checked

1. The plugs came out absolutely fine. Free of any carbon deposit on the tip. Almost perfect condition, all four.

2. There is no smoke from the engine on revving. I also took out the dipstick while the engine was still running to see if it smokes to rule out back compression.

3. The fuel economy is 18 km/liter in city without A/C since its winters. I travel to office early in the morning when its almost empty out on the roads and return in the afternoon when the traffic is reasonable. But then again I also undertake short journeys in heavy traffic. I am a very light footed driver I must add.

4. There is no drop in performance.

5. I also got it scanned via an independent mechanic who verified the MAP sensor pressure to check for compression loss.

The only sign of problem is the black soot in the exhaust tip.

Keeping everything above in the mind, can you please suggest what could be wrong here? My mechanic is suggesting to open the head to check for clearances and check if it needs a piston ring change. I am little apprehensive going for this since the engine is in pretty good shape performance and economy wise and does not seem to show any symptoms of consuming oil.

Please advice what shall I do.

Thanks in advance.
extreme_torque is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 14th December 2013, 12:27   #2
BHPian
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Seattle
Posts: 573
Thanked: 49 Times
Default re: Maruti WagonR: Excessive oil consumption

Quote:
Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
I have now run almost 5k's since the oil change and the oil level is already below the half way mark on the dipstick.
Check your coolant - if it looks normal (no froth or brown gunk) then you can rule out a blown head gasket.

You seem to have lost less than half a liter in 5000 km - that is not too bad.

I would suggest that you check oil levels regularly and keep using the car as it is.
CrackedHead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th December 2013, 14:06   #3
Senior - BHPian
 
extreme_torque's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 3,546
Thanked: 1,318 Times
Default re: Maruti WagonR: Excessive oil consumption

Thanks crackhead. I have checked coolant and its okay. The level is okay as well.

My concern is why is it consuming engine oil when there are no symptoms for it?
extreme_torque is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th December 2013, 14:27   #4
Senior - BHPian
 
joybhowmik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 1,313
Thanked: 1,905 Times
Default re: Maruti WagonR: Excessive oil consumption

Quote:
Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
My concern is why is it consuming engine oil when there are no symptoms for it?
Not sure where you park your vehicle.

But just to rule out the obvious, try parking on it on a swept concrete area for 12 hours and look for tell-tale signs of drips after moving it.
joybhowmik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th December 2013, 14:42   #5
BHPian
 
DeepakMenon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 261
Thanked: 145 Times
Default re: Maruti WagonR: Excessive oil consumption

A litlle bit of oil is leaking into ur cylinder.. Mostly from the valve side.. Which is getting burnt and you are seeing it in ur exhaust as deposit.. Not a lot for it to smoke..

Thats what my doubt will be at
DeepakMenon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th December 2013, 14:52   #6
Senior - BHPian
 
extreme_torque's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 3,546
Thanked: 1,318 Times
Default re: Maruti WagonR: Excessive oil consumption

Quote:
Originally Posted by joybhowmik View Post
Not sure where you park your vehicle.

But just to rule out the obvious, try parking on it on a swept concrete area for 12 hours and look for tell-tale signs of drips after moving it.
I did think about it and then checked the same in the office parking which is level.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeepakMenon View Post
A litlle bit of oil is leaking into ur cylinder.. Mostly from the valve side.. Which is getting burnt and you are seeing it in ur exhaust as deposit.. Not a lot for it to smoke..

Thats what my doubt will be at
In that case shall I get the head opened and examined? I don't want un-necessary opening of the engine. Its a delicate balance which a few can achieve.
extreme_torque is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th December 2013, 21:30   #7
Distinguished - BHPian
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Kolkata
Posts: 3,506
Thanked: 2,072 Times
Default re: Maruti WagonR: Excessive oil consumption

Hi,
Leave it as is, but keep monitoring.
All plugs were identical?
Other than the usual, check crankcase ventilation.
What oil change regime are you following?

Regards
Sutripta

Last edited by Sutripta : 14th December 2013 at 21:35.
Sutripta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th December 2013, 22:11   #8
Senior - BHPian
 
sagarpadaki's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Bengaluru
Posts: 2,632
Thanked: 1,257 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeepakMenon View Post
A litlle bit of oil is leaking into ur cylinder.. Mostly from the valve side.. Which is getting burnt and you are seeing it in ur exhaust as deposit.. Not a lot for it to smoke..

Thats what my doubt will be at
You are right. This could be one of the likely reason . I had the same issue what the thread starter is experiencing now on my pulsar. No smoke nothing. Oil level used to drop 200ml within thousand kms. The valves had worn out and also the cylinder wall had a slight scouring .the oil was getting sucked through the scouring and getting burnt.
sagarpadaki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th December 2013, 07:18   #9
Distinguished - BHPian
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Delhi
Posts: 3,071
Thanked: 6,249 Times
Default Re: Maruti WagonR: Excessive oil consumption

Quote:
Originally Posted by sagarpadaki View Post
You are right. This could be one of the likely reason . I had the same issue what the thread starter is experiencing now on my pulsar. No smoke nothing. Oil level used to drop 200ml within thousand kms. The valves had worn out and also the cylinder wall had a slight scouring .the oil was getting sucked through the scouring and getting burnt.
That would be my first thought too. And as pointed out, looks like it is only a little oil usage. As a very broad rule of thumb, anything up to using about 1 liter of oil per 1000 kilometer probably doesn't' really warrant doing any big repair jobs. Looking for leaks as suggested makes sense too.

Jeroen
Jeroen is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 16th December 2013, 09:34   #10
Senior - BHPian
 
sagarpadaki's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Bengaluru
Posts: 2,632
Thanked: 1,257 Times
Default Re: Maruti WagonR: Excessive oil consumption

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
That would be my first thought too. And as pointed out, looks like it is only a little oil usage. As a very broad rule of thumb, anything up to using about 1 liter of oil per 1000 kilometer probably doesn't' really warrant doing any big repair jobs. Looking for leaks as suggested makes sense too.

Jeroen

Even as a broad rule of thumb, 1 litre per 1000 kms is on the higher side!
sagarpadaki is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 16th December 2013, 12:13   #11
Distinguished - BHPian
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Delhi
Posts: 3,071
Thanked: 6,249 Times
Default Re: Maruti WagonR: Excessive oil consumption

Quote:
Originally Posted by sagarpadaki View Post
Even as a broad rule of thumb, 1 litre per 1000 kms is on the higher side!
Well, tell me what goes wrong or gets damaged??

Truth is as long as you have enough oil in the engine, oil consumption isn't that big a thing really. Excessive oil consumption can lead to problems. Might foul up the spark plugs in petrol cars and if it gets really bad it might even become a problem for the catalytic convertor and or lamba sensors.

But in general you would not see any major problems by burning a litre of oil for every 1000 kilometer.

It is a rule of thumb, and it might be a bit European. In Europe, labour is very expensive. And unless its something simple, like an obvious leak, most of what causes oil consumption will take many hours to fix. With the possible exception of replacing valve seals. That can be done, on some engines, within an hour. But as soon as the cilinder head needs to come off, your repair bills shoots through the roof because of labour cost. That's before you start replacing parts! To put things in perspective, in the Netherlands, an hour of a competent car mechanic in a properly equipped workshop will cost around Euro 60, that is about INR 5200 per hour. You can buy a lot of litres of oil for that!

So the rule of thumb is partly the business case, ie drivin by financials and partly by what could go wrong if don't do anything about it?

Again, be happy to adjust my views, but then you need to explain what goes wrong, gets damaged, or other detrinmental effects of oil

Jeroen
Jeroen is online now   (2) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 16th December 2013, 13:53   #12
Senior - BHPian
 
sagarpadaki's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Bengaluru
Posts: 2,632
Thanked: 1,257 Times
Default Re: Maruti WagonR: Excessive oil consumption

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
Well, tell me what goes wrong or gets damaged??

Truth is as long as you have enough oil in the engine, oil consumption isn't that big a thing really. Excessive oil consumption can lead to problems. Might foul up the spark plugs in petrol cars and if it gets really bad it might even become a problem for the catalytic convertor and or lamba sensors.

But in general you would not see any major problems by burning a litre of oil for every 1000 kilometer.

It is a rule of thumb, and it might be a bit European. In Europe, labour is very expensive. And unless its something simple, like an obvious leak, most of what causes oil consumption will take many hours to fix. With the possible exception of replacing valve seals. That can be done, on some engines, within an hour. But as soon as the cilinder head needs to come off, your repair bills shoots through the roof because of labour cost. That's before you start replacing parts! To put things in perspective, in the Netherlands, an hour of a competent car mechanic in a properly equipped workshop will cost around Euro 60, that is about INR 5200 per hour. You can buy a lot of litres of oil for that!

So the rule of thumb is partly the business case, ie drivin by financials and partly by what could go wrong if don't do anything about it?

Again, be happy to adjust my views, but then you need to explain what goes wrong, gets damaged, or other detrinmental effects of oil

Jeroen

Well , your POV on the oil quantity consumption is mainly vis vas the cost difference between buying a litre of oil vs overhauling the engine. True, the labor costs that you have mentioned is exorbitant . But, if an engine is consuming so much oil, then does it not mean that the engine is not at the best health? Engines are meant to burn gasoline/diesel and not oil. That is not the intended purpose with which the engine is built. That is also the reason why so much care is taken to keep away the oil from the combustion chamber. That is my POV on this.
sagarpadaki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th December 2013, 15:22   #13
Distinguished - BHPian
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Delhi
Posts: 3,071
Thanked: 6,249 Times
Default Re: Maruti WagonR: Excessive oil consumption

Quote:
Originally Posted by sagarpadaki View Post
Well , your POV on the oil quantity consumption is mainly vis vas the cost difference between buying a litre of oil vs overhauling the engine. True, the labor costs that you have mentioned is exorbitant . But, if an engine is consuming so much oil, then does it not mean that the engine is not at the best health? Engines are meant to burn gasoline/diesel and not oil. That is not the intended purpose with which the engine is built. That is also the reason why so much care is taken to keep away the oil from the combustion chamber. That is my POV on this.
You are correct of course that they weren't designed to burn oil. But at the same time, burning some oil doesn't really harm them either.

there are really only a few reasons for engines using oil, other than the obvious one, it just leaking out of the engine. You could have a problem with the head gasket. If you find oil in the cooling liquid then you must take action immediately. The other reason are worn valve seals. Not a big thing because it doesn't affect engine performance at all. But you would be surprised how much oil consumption it can cause. On Alfa Romeo's old and new types it is known issue. Lastly it could be related to the state of the piston rings. As long as you don't have any engine performance degradation, again, its not a big thing. Measure the compression and as long as all cilinders are not to far off from one another oil consumption isn't a big thing. Just because you have a problem with the piston rings, doesn't mean you have a loss of compression.

So, its always worthwhile investigating why an engine is using oil, it doesnt necessarily mean you need to worry immediately if it does. Do check the cooling reservoir and if your engine response/pick up feels less, get a compression test done.

My point of view is not only financials, it's also based on the lack of known (at least to me) negative effects on the engine.

The workshop tariff as quoted by me, is not exorbitant in the Netherlands. That's just the going rate. Very high compared to India, but that's just how it is in Europe.

An experienced car mechanic will be earning upwards of Euro 2500 gross per month. That is Euro 32.500 gross per year. (INR 2.800.000,-). By the time his boss has paid the various employer fees (pension, social security, health insurance, training etc) the cost for the employer will be approx 40% higher. On top of that the cost for the garage building, equipment etc. and that's how you end up with such a figure. Getting somebody to paint your house in the Netherlands would be at slighly lower tarif, but not by much!

Jerone
Jeroen is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 16th December 2013, 19:18   #14
Senior - BHPian
 
joybhowmik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 1,313
Thanked: 1,905 Times
Default Re: Maruti WagonR: Excessive oil consumption

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post

But in general you would not see any major problems by burning a litre of oil for every 1000 kilometer.

It is a rule of thumb, and it might be a bit European.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sagarpadaki View Post
Well , your POV on the oil quantity consumption is mainly vis vas the cost difference between buying a litre of oil vs overhauling the engine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
You are correct of course that they weren't designed to burn oil. But at the same time, burning some oil doesn't really harm them either.
Many cars in India use upto 4 maybe 5 litres of fresh oil at every change. In most cases, the mechanic draining the oil - drains it off to a pan - and no attempt is made to measure the volume of oil recovered from the engine. So, most of the time, the average Indian Joe, does not even know how much Oil the car really burnt up, unless the mechanic tells him - if at all.
However agree with Jeroen that it is a matter of degree.

Perhaps with some service intervals being 6 months or more, losing 1 litre of oil in 1000 km of running means the owner/driver has to be on top of things, and remember to do a top-up every 1~ 2 months depending on his runabout.

Even in India, doing a complete overhaul is expensive , so a top-up once in a while is OK.
joybhowmik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th December 2013, 09:09   #15
Senior - BHPian
 
extreme_torque's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 3,546
Thanked: 1,318 Times
Default Re: Maruti WagonR: Excessive oil consumption

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
Hi,
Leave it as is, but keep monitoring.
All plugs were identical?
Other than the usual, check crankcase ventilation.
What oil change regime are you following?

Regards
Sutripta
Sorry forgot to mentionin original post but I also got the crankcase ventilation checked. Again, no issues there as well.

I have only run 12k's since I bought the car in June this year but I plan to chnage it every 7500 kms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sagarpadaki View Post
You are right. This could be one of the likely reason . I had the same issue what the thread starter is experiencing now on my pulsar. No smoke nothing. Oil level used to drop 200ml within thousand kms. The valves had worn out and also the cylinder wall had a slight scouring .the oil was getting sucked through the scouring and getting burnt.
Is it then worthwhile to get the head opened and check the same?

Again, thanks for the help guys.
extreme_torque is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Hyundai Accent 1.5 GLS Engine Oil Consumption Peter Technical Stuff 35 10th February 2009 18:30
Second gen Gypsy (1000cc) compression ratio & oil consumption question xxaarraa Technical Stuff 1 19th November 2007 21:38
Oil consumption in a Baleno Floyd de Souza Technical Stuff 11 15th July 2007 16:55
Oil consumption after "flushing" rb2399 Technical Stuff 1 29th May 2007 21:23


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 04:47.

Copyright 2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks