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Old 11th February 2014, 09:58   #16
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Default Re: Technology @ Auto Expo 2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by thoma View Post
I am guessing that the specification was either wrongly or loosely* mentioned as inline. The specifications from Toyota UK site mentions it as a flat boxer engine.

Attachment 1206960
Yes indeed - the GT86 does use a 4-cylinder boxer engine, and not an inline one. Toyota got their own specifications wrong!
Quote:
The 86's engine, known by the Toyota code 4U-GSE and Subaru code FA20, is a naturally aspirated four-cylinder engine that uses Subaru's horizontally opposed boxer engine layout that runs on 98 RON (premium unleaded) fuel. Toyota added their D-4S injection system which uses both direct and port injection. The engine has a 12.5:1 compression ratio and a bore and stroke of 86 mm (3.4 in) that results in 200 horsepower (149 kW; 203 PS) at 7,000 rpm and 151 lbft (205 Nm) of torque at 6,000 rpm.
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* I didn't completely understand the 2nd para of the wiki explanation ["Another widely used form of flat engine consists of a straight engine with two, three, four or more cylinders canted 90 degrees into the horizontal plane, however this is not generally considered significantly different from other straight engines"]
Tilt an inline engine on its side and mount it in the engine bay - you've got the crankshaft on one side, and the cylinders on the other. As opposed to this, the flat engine has the crankshaft in the middle, with pistons on both sides. Hope this helps explain.
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Old 11th February 2014, 10:27   #17
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Default Re: Technology @ Auto Expo 2014

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Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
Tilt an inline engine on its side and mount it in the engine bay - you've got the crankshaft on one side, and the cylinders on the other.
Okay, I get this now. I was confused by the language "Another widely used form of flat engine". And doesn't it also mean the tilted inline engine can be called a flat engine?
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Old 11th February 2014, 10:35   #18
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Default Re: Technology @ Auto Expo 2014

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...doesn't it also mean the tilted inline engine can be called a flat engine?
No. A flat engine has pistons on either side of the crankshaft - the 90* tilted inline engine does not.
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Old 11th February 2014, 13:00   #19
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Default Re: Technology @ Auto Expo 2014

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Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
No. A flat engine has pistons on either side of the crankshaft - the 90* tilted inline engine does not.
Quote:
And doesn't it also mean the tilted inline engine can be called a flat engine?
Agree, but I was speaking about the wiki wording "Another widely used form of flat engine consists of a straight engine with cylinders canted 90 degrees into the horizontal plane" when I meant it, not the real fact.

How they (whoever put the wiki info) loosely termed a straight engine as a flat engine just because it was laid flat instead of vertically. Or, is it right in calling them both flat as well as straight?
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Old 11th February 2014, 15:09   #20
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Default Re: Technology @ Auto Expo 2014

Moderator note: Fixing Quotes. Please use Quotes and do Preview post before Submitting.

Great info and thanks for the same. A minor clarification on the Ecoboost engine post. Would the following

Quote:
Attachment 1206322
[/center]
Another interesting feature of this engine is the timing belt (not chain), which runs immersed in the engine oil itself. A belt is expected to be made of materials that should degrade on exposure to oil.
[center]Attachment 1206321
read better as follows.

...A belt is normally made of materials that are expected to degrade on exposure to oil...

Thanks for the extremely informative posts once again.

Last edited by Jaggu : 11th February 2014 at 15:45.
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Old 12th February 2014, 17:54   #21
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Default Timing belts for lower friction: Better, longer, in oil

Ecoboost is not the first engine to run a timing belt bathed in oil. In 2008 Ford came out with a 1.8litre CRDi engine with an oil bathed timing belt. Timing belts are coming back. Very interesting indeed!

A nice short article on timing belt immersed in oil, the PDF is attached.

Timing Belt in Oil.pdf
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Old 12th February 2014, 19:59   #22
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Default Re: Timing belts for lower friction: Better, longer, in oil

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Originally Posted by Sankar View Post
A nice short article on timing belt immersed in oil, the PDF is attached.

Attachment 1207436
Thanks for the article, Sankar.

HNBR (hydrogenated nitrile butadeine rubber) being the matrix substance bonding the glass fibres in such oil-immersed belts, yes indeed, it would be resistant to degradation on contact with hydrocarbons like petrol/diesel/mineral oils.

A quick bit of curiosity, however. What oil does Ford recommend for the EcoBoost engine? Is it synthetic, or any mineral/semi-synthetic oil meeting specifications will do?
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Old 12th February 2014, 21:44   #23
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Default Re: Technology @ Auto Expo 2014

@SS, any pictures of the left side of the Eicher engines. That's what piqued my interest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
On the 3-cilinder balancing act; not sure, but I suspect that the fact it has such a short crankcase has something to do with the ability to only use an unbalanced flywheel.
I think the rocking couple has been compensated by a unbalanced flywheel, and an equally unbalanced crank pulley 180 out of phase with the flywheel.
If so, two thoughts spring to mind. Massive dynamic imbalance, and forces/ wear on main bearings 1 and 4.

Would also have been interesting to see Ford's implementation of a variable displacement pump.

Regards
Sutripta

Last edited by Sutripta : 12th February 2014 at 22:05.
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Old 12th February 2014, 23:52   #24
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Default Re: Timing belts for lower friction: Better, longer, in oil

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Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
Thanks for the article, Sankar.

A quick bit of curiosity, however. What oil does Ford recommend for the EcoBoost engine? Is it synthetic, or any mineral/semi-synthetic oil meeting specifications will do?
Ford recommends SAE 5W-30 fully synthetic ford engine oil for the Eco boost engine (as per the user manual).
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Old 13th February 2014, 09:57   #25
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Default Re: Technology @ Auto Expo 2014

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Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
@SS, any pictures of the left side of the Eicher engines. That's what piqued my interest.
Unfortunately, no. Those are all the pics I had.
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Old 13th February 2014, 20:09   #26
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Default Re: Timing belts for lower friction: Better, longer, in oil

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Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
A quick bit of curiosity, however. What oil does Ford recommend for the EcoBoost engine? Is it synthetic, or any mineral/semi-synthetic oil meeting specifications will do?
Its synthetic and Ford created a new oil Spec for Ecoboost 1.0 litre (not sure if its applicable for other Ecoboosts) engine; its the Ford WSS-M2C948-B spec launched in 2012. I don't think many other oils meet this spec apart from Castrol Magnatec Professional E 5W20 and 5W30 oils. If i had an Ecoboost i wouldn't run any other oil that doesn't meet this spec no matter how superior in the Ecoboost because of the oil bathed belt and because one can't say how the polymer will react to non-spec oils or additives.
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Old 13th February 2014, 22:26   #27
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Default Some random thoughts on Auto Carnival 2014

Random, disjointed thoughts-

First of all, a huge thanks to SS. Would not have gone otherwise. (Transport, passes, company).
Since I went with SS, and SS has already covered it, I've very little to add.

Fail to understand why people would bring their babies (in strollers!) to the fair.

Fail to understand why auto (and bike) manufacturers would spend what they do on these tamashas, and not keep ONE knowledgeable person/ engineer around to answer questions. (One of them (presumably oversmart marketing guy) even tried pulling something which is not uncommon on this forum:- 'Sir, that is proprietary information which I'm not authorised to disclose'.)

A couple of these companies need to fire their image consultants. Immediately.

Hazardous checking ground clearance of vehicles.

The emerging trend for automobiles in India is to strap pedal bikes on the roof.

Most of the cutaway models were barricaded. Exactly the right distance to render my reading glasses useless. To me, these were as blurred as some of SS's pictures. Incidentally given the crowds, the jostling, the lack of proper access, that SS managed to get the pictures he did is astonishing.

MM had a NEF engine on display. Apparently 3.3L. No other details available.

DOHC engines are soon going to outnumber SOHC engines. Expected.

Tata Nano Twist: Still undecided about the information we got. Legit numbers/ figures quoted, or numbers pulled out of thin air just to get rid of us.

Was impressed by the people at the Eicher stall. Reasonably knowledgeable, and enthusiastic. (Though would like confirmation, or otherwise, of the cam drive mechanism from block to head)
Wonder why RE could not take part of the Eicher stall.

Saw the crowds and skipped the premium German stall entirely.
Wished had done the same for Maruti, Harley and Triumph. (Entered, saw nothing but people).
Strangely the Moto Guzzi's had relatively few gawkers. (I found them gorgeous!)

Hero too impressed. Not in terms of products themselves per se, but in terms of their evolution. They are not going to go down without a fight. (Am assuming that the products showcased are their own work, and not bought out/ commissioned third party work. (Shall not treat EB as third party))

There was a Toyota person at the Electric/ hybrid stall. Seemed like a punishment posting!

Regards
Sutripta
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Old 14th February 2014, 22:05   #28
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Default Re: Technology @ Auto Expo 2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
I think the rocking couple has been compensated by a unbalanced flywheel, and an equally unbalanced crank pulley 180 out of phase with the flywheel.
If so, two thoughts spring to mind. Massive dynamic imbalance, and forces/ wear on main bearings 1 and 4.
Since this is a ground up design, the bearing design should've hopefully taken this into consideration

I'm more interested to see how successful this strategy is? Ie how does the NVH compare with
  • Other 1.0 3 cyl w& w/o balance shaft
  • 1.6 liter 4cy (which is what its meant to replace)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
pinion, the intercooler being water-cooled leaves an Achilles' heel for the engine under Indian service conditions. We are not finicky about coolant quality and change intervals, and owners / drivers / FNGs are known to add plain tap water (usually alkaline / hard water) to top up the radiator. This can corrode the intercooler, leading to coolant / water ingress into the engine, with predictable results. ]
Generally speaking, cars have been getting more and more sophisticated to the point where any kind of messing around esp old world practices pose high risk for failure
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Old 16th February 2014, 18:15   #29
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Default Re: Technology @ Auto Expo 2014

The Toyota GT-86 uses a 2.0l flat four boxer engine producing 200hp and definitely not an inline four engine. This is a case of ignorance and human error.
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Old 7th March 2014, 22:04   #30
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Default Re: Technology @ Auto Expo 2014

While the discussion moved on to the FT86, just thought I must add some input.

The Toyota FT8 & Subaru BRZ (both identical twins) are actually jointly developed by Toyota & Subaru.
Toyota & Subaru have both actually have put in each of their finest skills & stuff to come up with this platform. That's including sharing of the iconic Subaru Boxster Engine.

While in the Middle-East, I had the opportunity to drive the Toyota FT86 and while I could not floor it on the spin, it's one great sports coupe. I feel this car, "IF PRICED RIGHT" is going to be the best Sports cars around on Indian roads.

A rather lesser know fact is that the FT86/BRZ Engine is actually tuned by Yamaha. I could be wrong and I cannot correctly recall if I had actually seen a Yamaha Engine Label inside the Engine bay. It's a great car, but is not taking off sales-wise elsewhere in the planet. And I know for sure it's the pricing, like in most cases, dealers (or could be Toyota) thought enthusiasts might just jump on this iconic sports car without much worrying about the price tag!

It's surely not one of those cars Toyota is going to assemble in India.
Getting it to India via the CBU route will probably make it even harder in terms of pricing.

It's not a car that can be compared to the Skyline GTR or the Lexus LFA.
It's brilliantly, placed in a the upper range of "the reachable & can buy someday Sportscars". Something like the Skoda RS, Polo GT but not yet near the Mitsubishi EVO.

Nonetheless, it's a great car! I would surely love to own one, someday in under 25 Lakhs! Dream figure is under 20 Lakhs.
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