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Old 14th February 2014, 17:18   #46
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Default re: My Mahindra XUV5OO goes DEAD. Update: Engine Replaced

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Originally Posted by arjab View Post
Sid..,

Looks like the HLA's (hydraulic lash adjusters) have failed in your engine.
Most probably it would be Cylinders 3, 4, & 2??

Root cause of HLA failure is usually FIP (Fuel Injection Pump) failure. FIP failure can potentially be a combination of mechanical and electrical - but usually in Mahindra's case 9/10 it will be electrical.
Dear Arjab,

How is FIP failure related to HLA damage ?
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Old 14th February 2014, 17:24   #47
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Default re: My Mahindra XUV5OO goes DEAD. Update: Engine Replaced

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Originally Posted by Vikas Arora View Post
Glad to know that M&M has agreed to replace complete engine.
I am not sure that we can make out as of now if MnM has agreed to replace the engine.
According to the OP, the call is yet to be taken by the company on this matter.

Regards,
Saket
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Old 14th February 2014, 17:28   #48
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Default re: My Mahindra XUV5OO goes DEAD. Update: Engine Replaced

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Originally Posted by hvkumar View Post
Unfortunately, cars have become ugly computers today unlike the beautiful mechanical creatures they were once upon a time. Pardon me for saying this, but in an old-fashioned mechanical car, something like this was unthinkable. And even the vagabond of a road-side mechanic could have done his 10 Rupee stuff, instead of having to battle nincompoops who sit in ASCs who have no understanding of neither car engineering nor customer service.
That is so true! This is the main thing that played in my mind and and I decided to pick up a Thar Di over a Thar Crde. No ECU, No Sensors. Simple, Desi, Diesel Gaddi!
A friend of mine, with water wading in his mind, bought a snorkel for his Thar Crde and later realized that the accelerator sensor is placed lower than the air filter.
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Old 14th February 2014, 17:46   #49
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arjab - I have the same question as interc00led. What is the connection between fuel injection pump and HLA failure? Frankly, I can't think of any. Furthermore, XUV does not have conventional fuel injection pumps. Common rail engines have a single high pressure fuel pump which maintains a high pressure in the fuel manifold (common rail) which is connected to all the injectors.
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Old 14th February 2014, 18:36   #50
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Default re: My Mahindra XUV5OO goes DEAD. Update: Engine Replaced

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Originally Posted by hvkumar View Post
...in an old-fashioned mechanical car, something like this was unthinkable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jassi_jeeper View Post
That is so true! This is the main thing that played in my mind and and I decided to pick up a Thar Di over a Thar Crde. No ECU, No Sensors. Simple, Desi, Diesel Gaddi!
What happened to me_sid's vehicle is classic mechanical failure, with no way that anything electronic could have safe-guarded anything that failed. Sabotage, spurious oil, unanticipated oil pump failure, call it what you will, this is something that can happen to just about ANY internal combustion engine of whichever era and whatever level of complication.

The way I look at the increasing electronics in our cars, if all of it helps to safeguard the vehicle from emitting too much of noxious/toxic gases into the atmosphere, if it helps achieve better fuel efficiency, and if it improves driver comfort, then I am all for it. The roadside mechanic may never be able to learn how to handle problems in electronics-laden cars, but if by learning about it myself I can ensure a higher probability of getting back home safely, I am willing to devote that little extra time to learn about what runs today's cars, and how.
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Old 14th February 2014, 19:04   #51
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Default re: My Mahindra XUV5OO goes DEAD. Update: Engine Replaced

Quote:
Originally Posted by me_sid View Post





I wouldn't be blaming the vehicle boss, It definitely has its fair share of niggles, but this is a freak incident for a otherwise extremely proven tried and tested engine. What's commendable is the way M&M tries to take care of the defects. Try others in the competition range and you would know the difference.


with you regarding Mahindra ASS, we got a Scorpio 2005 2.6 Dx ourselves run 1.5 Lkh, all problems have been attended to very well, It may be a freak incident as you said, but have more occured and we don't know is the question i was trying to raise. However good the after sales the Vehicle has to be reliable right. Please don't get me wrong after all BHPians only form a small percentage of the XUV owners in India, There may be more with the same Issues.

Last edited by terra85 : 14th February 2014 at 19:06. Reason: addition
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Old 14th February 2014, 20:27   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saket77 View Post
I am not sure that we can make out as of now if MnM has agreed to replace the engine.
According to the OP, the call is yet to be taken by the company on this matter.

Regards,
Saket
Saket if the M&M personnel calls me up and says that it has been decided that they will change the engine, within a certain time frame, then I do take it on the face value. Now if they don't, they are going against business ethos, which I doubt. And as I have said again & again its all about trust. Cause 'trust' me its not going to be only me, they would be creating a huge negative impact in the minds of others on two things, trust and reliability, to those who are going through this thread on a regular basis. It doesn't make any business sense. OP must also stands valid for reliability factor of a otherwise sparringly used and extremely well taken care of engine. BTW I just got a reconfirmation that the order has been placed by the dealer. Let me know if you have other information.
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Old 14th February 2014, 20:31   #53
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Default re: My Mahindra XUV5OO goes DEAD. Update: Engine Replaced

Great to know that you are geting a replacement. However when you get a new engine, i am sure it would have a new number. Just out of curiosity, would the new engine come with the same number or would it have a different number and if with a different number then wont you also have to take the trouble to re-endorse it on your RC Book.
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Old 14th February 2014, 21:29   #54
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Default re: My Mahindra XUV5OO goes DEAD. Update: Engine Replaced

Lots of questions, but guess we can only speculate. Would have loved detailed pictures.

If I were MM, I would love to get my hands on this engine as fast as possible. And from the CR point of view, turn this potential disaster into a PR coup by immediately changing the engine, no questions asked.

Take a look at
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/4x4-te...ml#post3348437 (MM550 XD3P : Timing Chain Failure)

Quote:
Originally Posted by arjab View Post
Sid..,

Looks like the HLA's (hydraulic lash adjusters) have failed in your engine.
Most probably it would be Cylinders 3, 4, & 2??

Root cause of HLA failure is usually FIP (Fuel Injection Pump) failure.
...
As the firing order is 1,3,4,2 usually the 1st cylinder escapes, and 3,4,2's HLA's get broken.
As others have mentioned, fail to grasp the connection between hydraulic tappets and FIP.
In addition, what is so special about cylinder 1. What if one says the firing order is 4, 2, 1, 3.

Regards
Sutripta
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Old 14th February 2014, 22:53   #55
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Default re: My Mahindra XUV5OO goes DEAD. Update: Engine Replaced

Quote:
Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
Here goes a zoomed-in view of me_sid's XUV cylinder head, and a quick lesson

Attachment 1207801


Now notice the little holes circled in red, inside the slots - these supply oil to lubricate the rotating camshafts and their bearings, maintaining a thin film of oil between the moving parts. That's why they are called 'hydraulic clamps' by M&M. At some point, the oil did not come through those holes and the surfaces ran dry, causing that kind of damage.


The circles in blue in the first pic are where the other ends of the fingers fit in, and there is a pressurized oil supply coming up through the little hole inside - this eliminates the requirement of clearance adjustments and 'tappet noise', since these are hydraulically self-adjusting fingers.
[/left]
[/center]
[/left]
[/center]
Nice illustration and explanation of the underlying issue dude. Also, I can see that the damaged slots/grooves where the camshaft is seated via bearings isn't showing the hole for oil passage i.e. I think the lack of lubrication probably heated, melted and sealed that passage which ultimately caused the valvetrain to give away.


Quote:
Originally Posted by debuda View Post
Anyway, as far as me_sidís XUV is concerned, the main suspect seems to be lubrication failure. If that is indeed the case, the following tell-tale signs should have been expected :
  1. Low oil pressure warning lamp should have come on.
  2. In all probability, there should be a DTC code for low oil pressure. If so, the ECU should have registered that DTC code. Iíd advise me_sid to check from the A.S.S. whether they found any such DTC code after connecting the OBD / laptop (usually, the OBD is capable of showing not only the current DTC codes but also historic ones).

Engine lubrication failures are usually quite catastrophic in that widespread damage takes place if the engine is operated for some time after oil failure. It appears that in this case the first failures took place in the valve actuating mechanism leading to some valves getting stuck in the open position. That, in turn, led to loss of compression in two cylinders and the engine stopped (and could not be restarted) preventing further damage.

Lastly, if there is no recorded DTC regarding low oil pressure and all other parts of the engine are found to be in pristine condition, it may be concluded that total lubrication failure is not the culprit. In that case, either a localized lubrication failure or material failure due to faulty assembly or defective parts could be suspected.
Your post cleared my query as to why the valvetrain components got affected first if the damage was caused by an insufficient supply of lubrication. In retrospect, the failure actually acted as a fail-safe to prevent further damage to other areas of the engine.

Also, could we safely deny the possibility that the guys at M&M's A.S.S cleared out any DTCs as a cover up which otherwise could've led to a conclusion that the failure was due to faulty/defective material and/or assembly?


Quote:
Originally Posted by interc00led View Post
Dear Arjab,

How is FIP failure related to HLA damage ?
+1. I'd like to know about this as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by saket77 View Post
I am not sure that we can make out as of now if MnM has agreed to replace the engine.
According to the OP, the call is yet to be taken by the company on this matter.

Regards,
Saket
IIRC, M&M has confirmed that they'll replace the engine on his XUV.

From me_sid's original post and following updates, I surmise that M&M has responded to the situation quite satisfactorily. I hope that they remain consistent throughout and you get 'AIRAVAT' back in action at earliest.
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Old 15th February 2014, 08:36   #56
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Default re: My Mahindra XUV5OO goes DEAD. Update: Engine Replaced

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Originally Posted by Desmosedici View Post
i am sure it would have a new number. Just out of curiosity, would the new engine come with the same number or would it have a different number...
Same number stamped on to the engine block at factory.
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Old 15th February 2014, 10:02   #57
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Default re: My Mahindra XUV5OO goes DEAD. Update: Engine Replaced

Quote:
Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
Same number stamped on to the engine block at factory.
You mean a replacement engine gets the same serial number as the original engine?

That's remarkable, I always understood engine serial numbers to be unique. Only way to trace them. Say, there has been two years between the built of the two respective engines. The newer engine, although identical on appearance might be fitted with different components/parts. During the life cycle of an engine, parts and bits often get changed.

So that's why you really need an unique serial number. Maybe I did not understand the question/answer correctly?

Jeroen
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Old 15th February 2014, 10:12   #58
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Default re: My Mahindra XUV5OO goes DEAD. Update: Engine Replaced

When the engine on my fiesta was replaced, it got the same number as the old one.
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Old 15th February 2014, 10:48   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by interc00led View Post
Dear Arjab,

How is FIP failure related to HLA damage ?
I have the same question as well. As far as I know , Hydraulic tappets get filled with Engine Oil(which acts as a hydraulic fluid) and then the cam lobes "push" down on them which in turn lifts the valves open.( Note: This is applicable for a Direct Overhead Cam Valvetrain, Indirect OHCs would have Cam followers like this XUV where HLA/HTs adjust the cam followers to maintain Zero valve clearance). So Oil pump failure would cause the HLA/HTs to not fill with oil hence the valves wont lift open(which is what happened in this case as far as I understood).

Fuel Injection Pump(basically a high tech plunger pump) does the job of pressurising the fuel which is sent to the fuel rail and into the combustion chamber/cylinder via the Injectors.

So as far as my understanding goes there shouldn't be any connection between FIP and HLA/HTs. Correct me if Im wrong.
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Old 15th February 2014, 12:35   #60
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Default re: My Mahindra XUV5OO goes DEAD. Update: Engine Replaced

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Now let me clarify my stance, being a seller of capital plant & equipment am aware that machines can fail, no matter how reliable or, how "bullet proof" their Sales pitch are. It doesn't make me sleepless, I however just raise my eyebrow on the reliability factor. To me the differentiator is how efficiently the case is being handled.
Dear Friend, I had been following your thread very closely, almost every hour to see if there is an update from your end. I was deeply concerned and eagerly anxious to know the outcome on how this issue will actually shape up the future of your car. Now that the issue has been identified and a resolution promised one can soon hope to see your beauty back of the road.

However, apart from all this your thread has a lot to learn. The best learning was to have a cool and calm approach in such situations. In spite of being on a strong platform like Team -Bhp you chose a balanced write up rather than bad mouth the manufacturer, criticising everyone out of frustration and so on. I appreciate this gesture of yours and love the way you handled the situation.

Quote:
If a change of profession paid enough for me to give up my primary profession, I'd happily migrate, Siddhartha. No one's offered anything like that yet!
Now here we have a person with dual specialisation among ourselves, I am a great fan of SS Traveller. I had missed his meet once on a slight confusion of Sat or Sunday. I have met a couple of fellow Bhpians who have spoken very high about him.

sid_me, You have mentioned that you spoke to SS Traveller for some inputs again highlights SST's humility for helping fellow Bhpians.

Best wishes
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