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Old 28th February 2014, 20:13   #91
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Default Re: My Mahindra XUV5OO goes DEAD. Update: Engine Replaced

I met the technical person at Anant Cars, Bangalore along with a friend of mine who is also a XUV owner and knows technical stuff.

We spoke about the issue in detail, their analysis was that the issue is a oil pump failure. I would rather not call it a failure because, the low oil pressure popped up only a couple of times, its an intermittently failing oil pump. Because of this failure, there was some scoring of the connector rod bearing and the crankshaft bearings. Although we could not look at the dis-assembled crankshaft bearings, a peep through the lower part of the engine did not show any damage.

So the plan of action is to replace the oil pump, which is fused to timing case in this engine, conrod bearing and crankshaft bearings. The orders have been placed on Thursday and there is some delay in procuring one of the parts. They are expecting the parts to arrive by Monday a couple of days work before they can test the engine and then do a test run.

My friend asked them to publish the results of compression tests and the expected standard readings of such a test. We have also asked them to test and publish turbo boost pressure numbers.

I think the delivery of the vehicle is at the least another week away. Will update when I have my vehicle back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mycarhasablower View Post
since you were prompt in turning off your engine when oil pressure was low, the damamge will be minimal. the scoured bearings if replaced , the engine should be fine
That is pretty much the assessment of my friend and others I have spoken to about this issue in details

Quote:
Originally Posted by mycarhasablower View Post
in the Mhawk,the oil pump is built into the timing chain cover. i think this feature is rare or maybe even unique.
You are right, I don't know about what other engines do

Quote:
Originally Posted by mycarhasablower View Post
Now since the car had already done 10000 kms, its unlikely this impurity was left behind during manufacturing. possibly during service. But if that is what happened, i would just call it bad luck, cuz mistakes happen.
They said that they analyzed the oil in the sump and did not find any impurities or debris there, I think its a freak case of an oil pump failing intermittently. They key was turning the engine off when I saw the warning lamp

Quote:
Originally Posted by mycarhasablower View Post
Enjoy your new engine though, you are lucky it was a mahindra
Yes glad its M&M, they owned up the issue, I dread if it was one of those Europeans

Last edited by shrk_18 : 28th February 2014 at 20:15.
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Old 2nd March 2014, 20:28   #92
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Default Re: My Mahindra XUV5OO goes DEAD. Update: Engine Replaced

Quote:
Originally Posted by shrk_18 View Post
So the plan of action is to replace the oil pump, which is fused to timing case in this engine, conrod bearing and crankshaft bearings.
Check esp for scoring on crank and cam journals, and scuffing on the cam lobes. If so, ask them to replace the part. Do not accept a ground down (it will be like new, sir) part.

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Sutripta
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Old 3rd March 2014, 10:27   #93
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Default Re: My Mahindra XUV5OO goes DEAD. Update: Engine Replaced

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
Lub oil analysis might give a good idea on wear and tear of components when an engine is still running. Im not sure what it will tell you after such a massive break down as we have here. You can just look at the individual components and get a good idea. I have no idea what an oil analysis would tell about the oil pump itself. Not sure you would be able to analyse any particular wear of the oil pump itself. Mind you that wear could also be on the external parts of the pump in which case the oil wont show anythign.

As you say turbo's have very narrow tolerances. The smallest of mishaps will result in a catastrophic failure. So in y opinion if a turbo rins fine, there is nothing to worry about. At least from a bearing and or lubrication point of view. Its all or nothing. Either it works fine or it doesn't. Not much in between.

Jeroen
Hi Jeroen,
I agree with your above observations regarding conclusions to be drawn from L.O. analysis. Routine analysis samples need to be drawn from a running engine (together with running data) for best results or else from scrapings off the L.O. filter (in cases where problems are suspected). Taking samples from a stopped engine is unlikely to give conclusive results.

Also, most automotive T/chargers (IHI, Mitsubishi, Garrett etc) run on journal bearings where even though bearing clearances are fine they are not as restricted as those running on frictionless (roller or ball) bearings such as those from ABB. Because of very low friction and inertia the t/c rotor keeps running for sometime after the engine stops. Which is why M&M -as well as most other manufacturers - have standing advice for owners to idle the engine for a while (a minute or so after a long high speed run) before stopping. This helps in maintaining boundary lubrication during the running down period.

I am an unabashed admirer of M&M's in house R & D capabilities (witness the twin-scroll t/charger on the Quanto as well as the downsizing of their 4-cyl unit to a 3-cyl configuration for the same car) and I felt that my faith in the company was not misplaced, by the step taken by the ASC in replacing the entire engine in the present unfortunate case.
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Old 3rd March 2014, 12:51   #94
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Default Re: My Mahindra XUV5OO goes DEAD. Update: Engine Replaced

Shreyas, as discussed please tell them to check the FIP and the injector system. And since you didn't undergo any oil change ( before this happened) , it can be assumed that there is no debris, metal shavings, etc in the oil pump. Issue is then why did it fail. I am also yet to receive an explanation on the reason of failure. Please keep us posted on the happenings.

I have deliberately not updated this thread, after the heart transplant of Airavaat, reason, I wanted to be fully sure that things are ok. What I came to know was that they have changed the slave cylinders of the clutch to the newer design.

Initial feeling is that the its a "new vehicle". Clutch is much lighter, gear shifting is feeling different. The sound of the engine, that I was so used to is different. I have deliberately kept him under 2K RPM. The pull is nice, the turbo is kicking in nicely. I am happy as of now. There was a grinding, screeching noise from the front right wheel ( the legendary niggle). The brake pads and rotors were filed by sand paper now it has reduced a bit.

I would like to thank the guys from ROYAL MOTORS, like Subhajit, Shariful, Biswajit, for doing a nice job. And yes Special thanks to Sandipan Chowdhury of M&M for all the support. Continue the good work.

A special thanks to TBHP! and everyone like SST, Sutriptada, Arjab to name a few, for standing by my side.

Coming Back couple of Do's and Dont's when Tsunamis like a seized engine hits you :

a) MOST IMPORTANT : Be Cool ( I know its a tall order, but force yourself)
b) Don't be Rude with the guys in the service center, they are equally worried as you are. But if someone tries to do monkey business, be polite but firm.
c) Get to know the hierarchy of the organisation. Trust me someone will listen.
d) Spread the word around. ( U know how to do that. Don't you?)

Anyone , any help on XUV's please feel free to inbox me.

Regards
Sid
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Old 3rd March 2014, 13:41   #95
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Default Re: My Mahindra XUV5OO goes DEAD. Update: Engine Replaced

Great gesture from Mahindra & Mahindra to own up the issue first and then address it this efficiently. Not many would have done that. Way to go

But certainly don’t want a series of XUV engine failures reported here.




P.S: Recently I had the ABS control unit failed in my Scorpio. I was looking at a bill in the north of Rs.40,000 as my Scorpio was 4.5 years old and out of warranty period, but was replaced at F O C including labour.

Last edited by M35 : 3rd March 2014 at 13:45. Reason: Format correction
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Old 4th March 2014, 10:21   #96
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Default Re: My Mahindra XUV5OO goes DEAD. Update: Engine Replaced

Quote:
Originally Posted by me_sid View Post
Shreyas, as discussed please tell them to check the FIP and the injector system. And since you didn't undergo any oil change ( before this happened) , it can be assumed that there is no debris, metal shavings, etc in the oil pump. Issue is then why did it fail. I am also yet to receive an explanation on the reason of failure. Please keep us posted on the happenings.
Hi Sid,

Thanks for all your help through this. Yes I have asked them to check all those things and they have promised to do so.

I saw the "low oil pressure" light once just before my second service and had complained to them about it then. They could not find anything then. They did the 2 service and also I had them change the oil. My last change was, when the service schedule was time based and not km based yet. So it was almost 9,000 km. But the light came on again about 500-600km after the second service. So I don't think this is related to oil change patterns. I suspect this is just a batch of faulty oil pumps. Mine is a July 2012 vehicle, which one is yours?

Regarding the status, the parts have arrived and work has begun. They are supposed to do all the tests, road tests and give the vehicle by Friday or Saturday.
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Old 10th March 2014, 15:51   #97
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Default Re: My Mahindra XUV5OO goes DEAD. Update: Engine Replaced

Hi Shreyas,

So whats the latest update on your XUV. Have you received the vehicle? If yes whats the list of job done. Can you please let us know.

Regards
Sid
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Old 11th March 2014, 08:29   #98
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Default Re: My Mahindra XUV5OO goes DEAD. Update: Engine Replaced

Quote:
Originally Posted by shrk_18 View Post
Regarding the status, the parts have arrived and work has begun. They are supposed to do all the tests, road tests and give the vehicle by Friday or Saturday.
As I understand, the internal damages to me_sid's and shrk_18's engines are likely to be quite similar as the root cause in both cases seems to be lubrication failure. However, M&M have replaced me_sid's engine completely but are carrying out a major overhaul of shrk_18's engine. IMHO, an engine fully disassembled and overhauled at an A.S.S. may not be as good as a new engine assembled and tested at the manufacturer's factory. There are many parts inside an engine where the damaging effects of lubrication failure may not be immediately apparent but may show up later and thereby reduce the effective life and performance of the engine.

Now that multiple incidents of XUV engine failures are being reported, M&M should make their stand quite clear. I strongly feel that if an engine suffers lubrication failure during the warranty period due to manufacturing / design flaws, the complete engine assembly should be replaced free of cost as was done in me_sid's XUV.


Quote:
Originally Posted by M35 View Post
Recently I had the ABS control unit failed in my Scorpio. I was looking at a bill in the north of Rs.40,000 as my Scorpio was 4.5 years old and out of warranty period, but was replaced at F O C including labour.
Could you please elaborate the circumstances under which they replaced your ABS unit FOC even though your Scorpio is well out of warranty? Did they offer this on their own or did you force them by escalating the matter?
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Old 11th March 2014, 12:17   #99
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Default Re: My Mahindra XUV5OO goes DEAD. Update: Engine Replaced

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Originally Posted by debuda View Post
Could you please elaborate the circumstances under which they replaced your ABS unit FOC even though your Scorpio is well out of warranty? Did they offer this on their own or did you force them by escalating the matter?
During early days of ownership [in the third year], my Scorpio did get front two ABS sensors replaced FOC under goodwill warranty, as they were not covered under the extended two year Mahindra shield.

Since then, it was working fine but then it was last July, the ABS warning sign began to show up. I had a couple of visits to the A.S.S to address the issue and they seemed to have done something to resolve it. In August I left India and the car was sparingly used in my absence.

In December, when I came to know that the ABS warning began to show up again, I decided to contact Mahindra. Within 24 hours or so I received an email from the Area Customer care Manager and then from the SM at Mahindra A.S.S, Trissur, asking if my car could be made available for a detailed inspection. The vehicle was picked up and later dropped back after having the issue resolved FOC permanently.

I didn’t have to escalate the issue any further. Since I was not in India, all the communications were being done through the CC@ Mahindra area office Manager first and then the SM were prompt and professional throughout.

The explanation for having it replaced FOC is worth mentioning here. The vehicle was in the 4th year of warranty period when it was reported with the issue first time in July. I am not sure the ABS control unit is covered under the two year extended warranty or not. It isn't not, then it was done as a goodwill gesture, which I am sure not many would have done.

The entire ordeal has been documented in my ownership thread:http://http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/long-term-ownership-reviews/130670-mahindra-scorpio-sle-m-hawk-5th-year-70-000-kms-3.html#post3323998

P.S:
  • I was not charged for the Pick up and Drop service either.
  • Last month during my recent visit to India, my Scorpio was driven for more than 3,000km with ABS working absolutely fine with NO glitches whatsoever.

Last edited by M35 : 11th March 2014 at 12:22. Reason: spell check
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Old 18th March 2014, 20:11   #100
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Default Re: My Mahindra XUV5OO goes DEAD. Update: Engine Replaced

Quote:
Originally Posted by me_sid View Post
Hi Shreyas,

So whats the latest update on your XUV. Have you received the vehicle? If yes whats the list of job done. Can you please let us know.

Regards
Sid
Apologies for the late reply, was busy at work. List of jobs done,
  • Crankshaft bearings
  • Connector Road bearings
  • All the relevant oils, oil seals
  • Coolant
  • All other dependent activities that involve dismounting and remounting the engine

I have an image of the bill with the list of job done, I can't access it right now and will post it as soon as I have it. My observation so far is that, the engine seems butter smooth. Another thing that I have noticed off late is that the engine is cooler for the same distance as before, when it felt little hotter. Is that a sign of an intermittently working oil pump?

I would also like to add that M&M shared the data from compression test results and it looked good. Turbo numbers also looked fine. I consulted my friend who helped me all along this ordeal and he also confirmed the same

Although it shouldn't have happened, I am glad it is M&M as they owned up the issue and drove it to resolution. I am happy with the support I received from the area customer care manager for Anant Cars in Bangalore Arun Nair and the team at Anant Cars for having done a good job.
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