Go Back   Team-BHP > Under the Hood > Technical Stuff


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 10th April 2014, 21:55   #16
BHPian
 
Catalyst_delhi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Noida/Coimbator
Posts: 339
Thanked: 148 Times
Default re: Mercedes E280 CDI: Jerky with heavy throttle inputs

Well I had this issue when my fuel filter got clogged in my old Ikon. Anything more than half throttle meant jerking. I had this issue also when Airfilter was really clogged in a Skoda automatic that I drove in the Netherlands. Apart from this it is wise to get the ECU codes read.
Catalyst_delhi is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 10th April 2014, 22:09   #17
Senior - BHPian
 
lurker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Tura
Posts: 1,308
Thanked: 641 Times
Default re: Mercedes E280 CDI: Jerky with heavy throttle inputs

I am now beginning to come around to the point, that most issues with turbos are due to lack of cleaning out the intercooler, EGR valve, Catalytic converter, all the hoses and pipes connected to the turbo. These are basically labour intensive, low margin jobs that any dealership fights shy of dealing with resulting in giving out huge estimates to it's customers. These have only shock value, but basically what they are saying is they couldn't be arsed to do an out of the routine run-of-the-mill job.

Only after cleaning out these parts can sensors and turbos be checked for fault. The turbos are precision parts and very rarely, unless you have abused your car, can there be something seriously wrong with them.
lurker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th April 2014, 22:14   #18
Senior - BHPian
 
SPIKE ARRESTOR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Deutschland
Posts: 2,680
Thanked: 750 Times
Default re: Mercedes E280 CDI: Jerky with heavy throttle inputs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naman_Ferrari View Post

I have a Mercedes-Benz E 280 CDI (2007 model) and from the past few months whenever I accelerate my car a little hard (more than half throttle), it starts jerking very badly as if it were continuosly shifting gears and sometimes the turbo-charger stops working causing a huge loss of power.
Asking you directly without looking out for google uncle, which transmission does this car have?

Does this problem happen at specific conditions (engine rpms / temperature etc.) ?

How are jerking + turbocharger shut off related (I mean the sequence of events) ?

Spike
SPIKE ARRESTOR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th April 2014, 22:37   #19
Team-BHP Support
 
Rehaan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Bombay
Posts: 22,381
Thanked: 22,610 Times
Default re: Mercedes E280 CDI: Jerky with heavy throttle inputs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
Please show me the evidence of fail safe mode and the engine reducing turbo boost? Just show me the relevant codes or pages of the work shop manual or codes and respective actions/
I think ajmat is referring to what is more commonly called "Limp Mode".

Watch this :




@ Naman - do read the first paragraph of MB Paul's reply here. He seems to know what he's talking about:
"Hi - limp mode faults can be caused by the turbo & the price sounds about right to replace it. The first step should be to have the car checked for fault codes to see what codes are stored, the turbo will often store a fault code relating to the boost regulator on the side of the turbo (only comes with a new turbo), over boost faults or back pressure sensor faults. Another common problem can be the inlet port shutoff motor - this can commonly fail due to oil leaking from the intake seal in the pipe that joints onto the inlet side of the turbo - check for oil leaking here, the motor is located directly under this & is a common problem.

There are other possibilities which is why a check for fault codes should be carried out first.
"
cya
R

Last edited by Rehaan : 10th April 2014 at 22:48.
Rehaan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th April 2014, 23:39   #20
Team-BHP Support
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 11,894
Thanked: 9,744 Times
Default re: Mercedes E280 CDI: Jerky with heavy throttle inputs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
Sorry, it is utter and total gibberish and you haven't got a clue. That is a bit rash but until you prove me wrong I don't think you have got a clue. What the hell is off boost? And yes, you are, most likely, complete and utterly wrong.

Jeroen
I dont think you have the right to be arrogant. Since I sold my car, all the relevant manuals went with it. I cannot give the exact documentation but I certainly know what I am talking about. I have helped quite a few Skoda RS owners on the forum and I certainly was not lucky, it was through a lot of problem solving.

Let me educate you

"Off boost" -which the turbo is not in operation


Let me show some examples of "fail safe" as applicable to the VW engines

http://www.cargurus.com/Cars/Discussion-t1522_ds51923

http://www.vwaudiforum.co.uk/forum/s...fail-safe-mode

http://community.cartalk.com/discuss...limp-mode-help

http://www.torquecars.com/audi/18t-tuning.php

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=1169842


and yes, Fail Safe = Limp Home.

I inadvertently use the term failsafe since I am involved in running millions of gigabytes of computing power. Fail safe means in my parlance, a situation where a system's design prevents or mitigates unsafe consequences of the system's failure similar to an engine working to safe parameters to avoid further damage

Some observations:
  • You say I am wrong but you have not proven me wrong.
  • Apart from asking for codes, have you at least taken a risk to ascertain or suggest what could be the cause?

Quote:
I'm fifty five years old and I have been proved wrong many times. It' called learning. I'm always willing to learn, but you are not offering any knowledge that adds to what I know. Just one liners that make no sense from where I'm sitting
I am not too far behind in age, I am happy to be proven wrong but you have not. If the one liners make no sense, maybe you ought to try and ask and learn, not disparage. I answered in order to try and help, not impart knowledge.

I work with very successful teams in my day job, our success comes from challenging and proving, not disparaging
ajmat is offline   (15) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 10th April 2014, 23:55   #21
Senior - BHPian
 
humyum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Leicester/Mumbai
Posts: 2,306
Thanked: 2,188 Times
Default re: Mercedes E280 CDI: Jerky with heavy throttle inputs

Quote:
Originally Posted by ajmat View Post
Quite possible that your car is slipping into failsafe mode hence turbo cutting off to restrict damage.
It sounds like poor fuel flow, might be time to change the injectors. A diagnostic check will reveal the fault code
True, I am sure you mean by fail saif = Limp mode. In this mode there would be signs of restricted fuel flow and hence feel like the turbo has lost its punch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
Sorry but that is utter gibberish!
Its not, what Ajmat said makes sense. Failsafe = Limp mode.
humyum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th April 2014, 07:32   #22
Distinguished - BHPian
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Delhi
Posts: 3,068
Thanked: 6,246 Times
Default re: Mercedes E280 CDI: Jerky with heavy throttle inputs

Quote:
Originally Posted by ajmat View Post
I dont think you have the right to be arrogant.
Let me educate you
I'm not arrogant, I'm factual

Quote:
Originally Posted by ajmat View Post
"Off boost" -which the turbo is not in operation
The turbo always spins, there is no such mode as the turbo not in operation. there is no education happening here yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ajmat View Post
and yes, Fail Safe = Limp Home.
Yes, I understand what you are referring too

Quote:
Originally Posted by ajmat View Post
You say I am wrong but you have not proven me wrong.
The facts are staring you in the face

Quote:
Originally Posted by ajmat View Post
[*]Apart from asking for codes, have you at least taken a risk to ascertain or suggest what could be the cause?
So lets get back to your original statement:

Quote:
Quite possible that your car is slipping into failsafe mode hence turbo cutting off to restrict damage.
It is correct that fail or limp home mode kicks in to prevent damage. What is gibberish is that the fail safe mode makes the turbo cut off. A turbo always spins, it always blows some air into your engine, even below boost threshold or when you are experiencing turbo lag the turbo is still spinning and blowing air in your engine. it never cuts off. So factually that statement is gibberish.

When the engine goes into limp home mode the engine management system will allow the engine only at reduced RPM and it might put a few other things on hold or reduce as well, e.g. throttle response. Essentially it will reduce the fuel to the engine, lowering the RPMs and hence the turbo will spin less and produces less boost or maybe even none, but it still spins!

Now an engine will go in limp home mode when one or more sensors detect a major deviation from its normal readings. On your Mercedes there are literally dozens of sensors that could have the engine go into limp home mode.

So there are dozens of possible reasons why you are experiencing this phenomena. It could be a faulty sensor, a dirty connection, some air leaks, or something wrong with the engine and or transmission. And yes, transmission faults show up in the OBD codes too.

I doubt that anything wrong with the turbo can cause real big jerks. Big jerks are more likely to be coming from something to do with the fuel / air system or the transmission, especially if it is an auto box.

It should show up on your dashboard that it is in fail or limp home mode. Even if it doesn't, get the codes checked.

I'm not offering or suggesting a cause, because at this point in time we simply don't have enough data to make even an educated guess. That is at least my opinion. The problem on this and many other forums is that everybody starts offering opinions on what it could be, without having all the facts. Here is where your car's OBD connection comes in. Any competent car mechanic will always hook any OBD equipped car up to an analyzer immediately. That what it is for. To assist you in making the correct diagnosis without guessing.

There is no risk in, it it the official (Mercedes) procedure.

Choose your own method on how to troubleshoot and do a proper diagnosis. But on a problem like this it starts with reading the OBD codes and honing in on the problem from there. Everything else is just guess hit or miss, no matter how many links you google.

Again, and I can't stress this enough, it needs to be taken to a workshop where they have Mercedes specific diagnosis equipment and a competent mechanic that knows how to interpret codes. The reason I'm saying this is that cars such as Mercedes have endless manufacturer specific codes and they won't show up on a generic code reader. Whatever faults you would find with a generic code reader would be relevant, but with manufacturer specific codes you tend to get much more granular information.

Jeroen
Jeroen is offline   (6) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 11th April 2014, 07:49   #23
Team-BHP Support
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 11,894
Thanked: 9,744 Times
Default re: Mercedes E280 CDI: Jerky with heavy throttle inputs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
I'm not arrogant, I'm factual



The turbo always spins, there is no such mode as the turbo not in operation. there is no education happening here yet.

Thanks, now you have taken to opportunity to correct me, I stand corrected in that the turbo always spins. What I meant to say is that the ECU does not permit the engine to rev and allow the wastegate to operate.

While you have just become factual, I suggest you state the facts and reasons instead of labelling without an apparent reason. That is arrogance, why not be constructive in the first place?
ajmat is offline   (2) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 11th April 2014, 15:15   #24
Team-BHP Support
 
Rehaan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Bombay
Posts: 22,381
Thanked: 22,610 Times
Default re: Mercedes E280 CDI: Jerky with heavy throttle inputs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naman_Ferrari View Post
The service centre told me that they have already tried fixing the software.
I am sorry I have no clue what codes are here but am I correct in assuming that whatever software they looked at is the same thing that you are talking about?
To clarify things for you:

Software : They could be talking about specific software/firmware that all the electronics in your car run (including the controller for the transmission, etc). This can sometimes fix/prevent problems, but it doesn't seem to have made a difference in your case. (Think of it like upgrading software from Android 4.2 to android 4.3 to fix bugs).

Error Codes / Scanner / OBD-port : Your car has a diagnostics port, to which a "scanner" can be plugged in. This scanner then shows you a read-out of error codes that the car has faced in recent time. You can then see what those specific error codes refer to (Eg : transmission overheating, intake sensor out of expected range, etc). Ideally, have a official Mercedes guy use his scanner, as it will show more details than a generic scanner. Once you figure out the issue, it can then be fixed.

cya
R
Rehaan is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 11th April 2014, 15:51   #25
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: mumbai
Posts: 1,108
Thanked: 87 Times
Default re: Mercedes E280 CDI: Jerky with heavy throttle inputs

I have used a E280cdi for 4 years. Never had any problems. This jerking or gear shifting problem on hard acceleration imo is since, the gearbox is electronically controlled and adjusts its shifts according to driving style, and, maybe the gearbox ecu is malfunctioning, but this should show on star diagnostics. I faced this once in a while when I suddenly from soft driving went on to hard driving, but the gear change programmed itself after a couple of shifts. The turbo malfunction can also give wrong signals to the gearbox ecu causing it to get confused in shifting. MB dealer Has to know it from diagnostics.
The E280cdi has been one of their very reliable models!!
scooby05 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th April 2014, 15:52   #26
Team-BHP Support
 
Jaggu's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 17,752
Thanked: 7,478 Times
Default re: Mercedes E280 CDI: Jerky with heavy throttle inputs

And to add to the above, with a merc specific scanner it usually will give you a description along with the code. In a generic scanner most often it might just be a code that is given and then you have to sit and figure out what it refers to. Sometimes codes might refer to multiple things in a generic scanner, where as OE scans can pin point faster.

Don't know how many of you visited the MB forum link by adnrodev in the prev page. Sounds like the same issue, turbo control module going kaput. But replacement for the child part seems to be difficult.
Jaggu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th April 2014, 16:17   #27
BHPian
 
Naman_Ferrari's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 113
Thanked: 46 Times
Default re: Mercedes E280 CDI: Jerky with heavy throttle inputs

Thanks for all the help guys!
I will visit the dealer and will talk to them about all that all of you have helped me with and get back to you soon.
Thanks again for all the help
Cheers!
Naman_Ferrari is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th September 2015, 01:31   #28
Awaiting Email Confirmation
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 311
Thanked: 66 Times
Default Re: Mercedes E280 CDI: Jerky with heavy throttle inputs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naman_Ferrari View Post
Thanks for all the help guys!
I will visit the dealer and will talk to them about all that all of you have helped me with and get back to you soon.
Thanks again for all the help
Cheers!
Did you get the problem fixed? My car (E280 CDI-W211) is having similar problems with power loss, jerking and juddering under hard acceleration (also goes into limp mode sometimes). There is also a whirring/humming sound constantly on the drive. An experienced indie has informed that pressure sensor could be malfunctioning. From MBworld, I could gather it to be the turbo actuator electronics malfunctioning. Merc ASS says it is pressure sensor and transmission oil pump. Don't know that the problem exactly is, but I hate that I'm not able to push this gem of a V6 motor.
Akki_5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th September 2015, 10:00   #29
BHPian
 
Raja's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Pune
Posts: 414
Thanked: 61 Times
Default Re: Mercedes E280 CDI: Jerky with heavy throttle inputs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akki_5 View Post
Did you get the problem fixed? My car (E280 CDI-W211) is having similar problems with power loss, jerking and juddering under hard acceleration (also goes into limp mode sometimes). There is also a whirring/humming sound constantly on the drive. An experienced indie has informed that pressure sensor could be malfunctioning. From MBworld, I could gather it to be the turbo actuator electronics malfunctioning. Merc ASS says it is pressure sensor and transmission oil pump. Don't know that the problem exactly is, but I hate that I'm not able to push this gem of a V6 motor.
Check the fuel pump and fuel filter.
I have an old W124 (Petrol) and my fuel pump is failing with similar symptoms.
Raja is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th September 2017, 01:51   #30
BHPian
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Somewhere India
Posts: 97
Thanked: 91 Times
Default Pajero Sport Jerky Acceleration

Recently after a hard driving session of around 3-4 hours over 200km a new problem has cropped up in my pajero sport. On pressing the accelerator the car would suddenly stop accelerating and engine braking would commence around 2000 rpm when the turbo is spooling and it happens in 2nd, 3rd and 4th gear and randomly increasing in instances now. It has run 87k with regular servicing due for a service soon. It is also using dieseltronic in P2 mode.

Things I have shortlisted as i see it more of a fuel line issue

1. Fuel Filter Choke
2. Fuel Pump Weak
3. Injector clog
V12Doc is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Merc E280 And 280 Cdi Launched !! CaliforniaKnight The Indian Car Scene 27 2nd November 2017 01:04
Merc E280 CDI Problem - Rear differential! Akki_5 Technical Stuff 35 23rd October 2011 15:52
Thalassery to Munnar in Mercedes E280 CDI rihan01234 Travelogues 2 1st January 2010 13:30
FlyingSpur & Dippy's Faceoff : BMW 530d v/s Merc E280 CDI FlyingSpur Test-Drives & Initial Ownership Reports 17 1st December 2008 17:53
E280 CDI, A6 3.0 TDI Quattro or 530d? kimiraikkonen77 Luxury, Imports & Niche 17 15th September 2006 06:51


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 00:12.

Copyright 2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks