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Old 29th April 2014, 13:39   #31
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Default re: Why your "remote locking" immobilizer is useless

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Originally Posted by EFF-EIGHT-BEE View Post
Nice and informative thread tsk1979! I want to ask about the immobilizer used in Figo, is it the one with chip embedded or remote locking type?
Ford uses PATS (Passive Anti-Theft system) an RFID based system, similar to Maruti's iCats.
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Old 29th April 2014, 14:23   #32
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Default Re: Why your "remote locking" immobilizer is useless

Guys,

There's no such thing as a theft-proof car. Every anti-theft device - be it your keys or immobilizer or gear lock - merely acts as a deterrent. A determined thief will get to your car if he really wants to. Install all the security devices you can get, park safely and if that doesn't work....use your insurance!

Want proof? An armoured S600 - belonging to no less than the Mercedes CEO - was famously stolen in 2004. That top-of-the-line S Class was loaded to the brim with gadgets, technology & security.
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Old 29th April 2014, 14:51   #33
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Default Re: Why your "remote locking" immobilizer is useless

There are a lot of jugads people do to prevent theft. In youtube while searching for a similar thing I came to see a video which says about a small hidden toggle switch that triggers a relay which controls the injector power supply, I have seen people did a similar thing to control the starter motor, but this can be bypassed. How to find the powersupply that powers the injectors? I think canbus will make it more difficult also as there will not a be a separate line for this.
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Old 29th April 2014, 15:03   #34
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Default Re: Why your "remote locking" immobilizer is useless

I have also seen people wiring their horns with a pull-push switch, hooked to ignition point. If the switch is not pushed off before switching on the ignition, the horns will sound and alert you. Of course, the location of the switch is kept a secret and is put to on position before locking the car.
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Old 29th April 2014, 15:10   #35
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Originally Posted by ::CMS:: View Post
There are a lot of jugads people do to prevent theft. In youtube while searching for a similar thing I came to see a video which says about a small hidden toggle switch that triggers a relay which controls the injector power supply, I have seen people did a similar thing to control the starter motor, but this can be bypassed. How to find the powersupply that powers the injectors? I think canbus will make it more difficult also as there will not a be a separate line for this.
There is another option which I follow. When ever I have to park my car at some unsafe place I just remove the fuse for ignition and for fuel. So first of all if somebody tries to start the car the starter motor won't work and if somebody tries to push start the car won't get fuel. Ofcourse I put gear lock as well.

nIk

Last edited by tsk1979 : 29th April 2014 at 15:21.
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Old 29th April 2014, 15:17   #36
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Default Re: Why your "remote locking" immobilizer is useless

Mother of all...remove the distributor cap! I don't think thieves will carry spare distributor caps to steal your car!
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Old 29th April 2014, 15:20   #37
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Default Re: Why your "remote locking" immobilizer is useless

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Mother of all...remove the distributor cap! I don't think thieves will carry spare distributor caps to steal your car!
Now a days thieves are even carrying spare ECUs to bypass immobiliser or any similar locks
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Old 29th April 2014, 15:56   #38
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Default Re: Why your "remote locking" immobilizer is useless

Hi All,

6 months back Innova of a delhi high Court Judge was stolen. The thief replaced the ECU, which was programmed to a different RFID, carried by thief.

Its another story that after few hours, Police could find his Innova in Meerut in dismantled condition.

God knows how but Police could manage to recover the Innova but the owner refused to take the vehicle as its state had been changed to old from what he had, a relatively new one.

Last edited by Wanderers : 29th April 2014 at 16:07.
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Old 29th April 2014, 19:04   #39
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Default Re: Why your "remote locking" immobilizer is useless

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Originally Posted by saket77 View Post
Mother of all...remove the distributor cap! I don't think thieves will carry spare distributor caps to steal your car!
Newer cars do not have distributors. ECM fires ignitor coils based on CPS sensor
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Old 29th April 2014, 19:15   #40
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Default Re: Why your "remote locking" immobilizer is useless

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Originally Posted by svsantosh View Post
OT, but can relate to this on a funny note

Last week, my octogenarian neighbor stopped by my newly got 90' M800-AT. He too was a fellow M800 owner, (just back from shopping). He was in awe of the rare AT i got and wanted to take a peek inside. I said 'uncle please wait, let me run up to get the keys', to which he said 'son you are too young' - popped in his M800 key and opened my M800 door and sat inside to look at the Auto shift.

I was speechless!
My dad's RX 100 had a worn out key. He was was getting absent minded, and more than once got on the wrong RX 100. However he always knew his bike'e engine note, so would figure out when he was on the wrong bike.

More recently, friend of mine locked himself out of his '03 WagonR. He was able to open it with a splendor key
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Old 29th April 2014, 20:56   #41
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So how much time does a learning remote take to learn a code ? Does it need one momentary signal, or does it need the source remote to be working for x number of seconds (hold the button on the source remote pressed for x seconds) ?
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Old 29th April 2014, 23:07   #42
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Default Re: Why your "remote locking" immobilizer is useless

Let me share what I know about this security system and how easy it is to hack it.

As stated previously here, cars like the innova, swift etc which have the immobilizer system, work on the basis of a transponder which is installed in the key and the sensor for the same which is located near the ignition keyhole. Its not easy to duplicate this transponder as it requires specialized and expensive tools and more importantly physical access to the key. Which is easier said than done.

So the thieves have figured out that the key is matched to the ecu and a simple way to get around the whole thing is to get an ECU and a matched key, gain access to the engine bay and then replace said ECU with the matched one and simply drive off.

But in the case of more expensive cars like BMW, Mercedes and Audi there are two very hi tech forms of theft which is used.

1. The first method involves taking advantage of a flaw in the keyless start feature which is present in these vehicles, There are a lot of articles online (just search for "Hi tech car theft") which go into very minute detail, but ill keep it simple for easy understanding. Basically, the keyless start system also comes with a keyless unlock which requires you to simply touch a button on the door handle or on the sensor behind the handle. So in order for this system to work seamlessly, an encrypted signal is sent in frequent intervals which when detected by the key is responded to with a verification code which in turn unlocks the vehicle. The signal sent by the car covers a maximum radius of around 1.5 meters around the car, but the signal sent by the key can cover nearly 300 meters. So what these people do is use a simple device that amplifies the signal sent by the car to nearly a kilometer in radius so that the remote may send back the verification code and the car would think that the key is in the vicinity, once this is done, the doors can be unlocked and the same process is repeated inside the car to make the car think that the key is present inside the vehicle. This flaw was detected as early as two years back when several surveilence videos emerged of thieves simply walking by a car and unlocking it just by touching the handle or even by simply standing there. There were several cases of such people simply driving off with vehicles but none, if not a very few of them involved newer german luxury cars. Here is where the second technique comes into play.

Heres a video of this particular method which appeared on an American news channel.
New High tech car theft device showing up in the US


2. This process is used almost exclusively with BMW's and that too newer ones, there are videos of the 1M being stolen, a 530D being stolen all on youtube, in fact in an interview with the owner of the 5 series on a news channel, he said that the insurance company refused to believe that such a high tech car could be stolen at all in this day and age. But it was the surveillance camera footage that saved him. Back to the topic, this process involves three steps,
a. gaining access to the interior of the car without setting off the shock sensor and the interior movement sensor.
b. Plugging in a specialized handheld tool into the OBD port of the vehicle and programming a blank key to match the vehicle.
c. Dropping the car into neutral after turning it into acc mode to roll the vehicle from garage/parking lot to a safer spot and then simply driving it off.

Heres the picture of the said device.

Name:  bmwkeyprogrammer.jpg
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Video of a brand new BMW 1M being stolen in the UK.


Here are some links which give further info on the same.

BMW's can be stolen in 3 minutes or less

Keyless BMW's prove to be very easy to steal
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Old 30th April 2014, 07:58   #43
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Default Re: Why your "remote locking" immobilizer is useless

Tanveer you have done it again....touching a hidden nerve. This is getting interesting.
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Old 30th April 2014, 10:32   #44
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Default Re: Why your "remote locking" immobilizer is useless

I think instead of these high tech security, its better to adapt some custom ways or jugaad so that the thief will not be able to do his homework. There is no 100% foolproof method, theft delaying is the best option and force the thief to leave the vehicle. Also hidden tracking facility will help in case the thief is able to steal the vehicle.

Last edited by GTO : 30th April 2014 at 11:33. Reason: Typos
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Old 30th April 2014, 11:14   #45
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Default Re: Why your "remote locking" immobilizer is useless

Quote:
Originally Posted by arun_m5 View Post
Let me share what I know about this security system and how easy it is to hack it.
Excellent post.
Lemme share my experience.
I did official review of Cruze which has push start and touch and open system.
As an experiment, we kept key near car, and then drove off, with the key not in car. Even driving 1km away, the car did not shut down.
So this exists in many hi-tech cars, not just BMWs etc.,

But amplifying the signal sure is a neat trick.
I guess, it proves one thing. That lock making and lock picking is a cat and mouse game.
A better lock will only come when the best lock is broken.
That said, I will repeat what I said earlier. Your car need not be theft proof. It just has to be more theft proof than the next one
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