Go Back   Team-BHP > Under the Hood > Technical Stuff


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 28th April 2014, 12:52   #1
Team-BHP Support
 
tsk1979's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 22,953
Thanked: 15,644 Times
Default Why your "remote locking" immobilizer is useless

Many modern cars come with an electronic key, i.e. chip embedded in key. So when you insert key, vehicle won't start, unless you have an electronic key.

However, many old vehicles, and some new vehicles use a different remote. They have a remote operated central locking system, which comes with an immobilizer. So if your battery goes dead, or you do not open with remote but use key to open vehicle, the vehicle will not start.

Seems like a good anti theft?
Well no.

When our Safari remotes(minda) started going bad, I started looking solutions. I can call minda and they will program the key for 900 INR all inclusive.

But there is another soution
1. Find the freq of my remote 313MHz or 415MHz(commonly used frequencies)
2. Buy a learning remote
3. Use!

These remotes cost less than 10 USD when bought from ebay china sellers.

So all the thief has to do is stand around when you unlock your car, and train their remote.
So there goes the immobilizer out of the loop. All that is now needed is to get a duplicate key.

Considering hanky panky done at workshops, there is a good chance the unscrupulous employees can duplicate your keys + also duplicate your remote, and then drive of with your vehicle.

Solution? Get a gearlock, and give your vehicle to workshop with lock disengaged and no key. They can duplicate your key and remote, but they cannot duplicate what they do not have.

I hope more manufacturers come with electronic keys
1. more difficult to clone - Your car need not be theft proof, only more theft proof than the next car
2. Even if your remote battery dies, you still can use your car normally. No more running around looking for a remote battery. I carry 2 spare batteries always + a small screwdriver because its a known fact murphy can strike anywhere!
tsk1979 is offline   (30) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 28th April 2014, 13:22   #2
BHPian
 
MetalBuff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Mumbai, Florida
Posts: 457
Thanked: 254 Times
Default re: Why your "remote locking" immobilizer is useless

Quick thought - Why can't the key for a gear lock be created out of nothing? Isn't the process similar to what is followed in an event when someone misplaces the key to their house door OR their suitcase/ briefcase and the likes?

Have seen and heard about these learning remotes but, didn't ever imagine these to be so dirt cheap!

-Shivang Gandotra

Last edited by MetalBuff : 28th April 2014 at 13:27.
MetalBuff is offline   (2) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 28th April 2014, 13:23   #3
Team-BHP Support
 
tsk1979's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 22,953
Thanked: 15,644 Times
Default re: Why your "remote locking" immobilizer is useless

Quote:
Originally Posted by MetalBuff View Post
Quick thought - Why can't the key for a gear lock be created out of nothing? Isn't the process similar to what is followed in an event when someone misplaces the key to their house door OR to the suitcase/ briefcase and the likes?

Have seen and heard about these learning remotes but, didn't ever imagine these to be so dirt cheap!

-Shivang Gandotra
Again, lets come to the point. Your vehicle should not be 100% secure. It should be more secure than the next vehicle.
So there are two vehicles in workshop
Vehicle 1 - Duplicate key and immobilizer and you are done
Vehicle 2 - Go through the hanky panky of creating a key for gear lock too

Which vehicle will the potential thief choose?
tsk1979 is offline   (6) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 28th April 2014, 13:32   #4
BHPian
 
MetalBuff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Mumbai, Florida
Posts: 457
Thanked: 254 Times
Default re: Why your "remote locking" immobilizer is useless

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
Again, lets come to the point. Your vehicle should not be 100% secure. It should be more secure than the next vehicle.
So there are two vehicles in workshop
Vehicle 1 - Duplicate key and immobilizer and you are done
Vehicle 2 - Go through the hanky panky of creating a key for gear lock too

Which vehicle will the potential thief choose?

I totally subscribe to the point that's being made however, installing a gear lock isn't fool proof. Will this be a deterrent? Definitely!

-Shivang Gandotra
MetalBuff is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 28th April 2014, 13:51   #5
Distinguished - BHPian
 
saket77's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Ranchi
Posts: 3,189
Thanked: 4,212 Times
Default re: Why your "remote locking" immobilizer is useless

This news is worse for people who just have a central/ remote locking solution with no immobilizer in the car. All that is needed is to unlock the car & drive away with the locally made key. Bad news!
saket77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th April 2014, 14:07   #6
Senior - BHPian
 
msdivy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 1,445
Thanked: 837 Times
Default re: Why your "remote locking" immobilizer is useless

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
But there is another soution
1. Find the freq of my remote 313MHz or 415MHz(commonly used frequencies)
2. Buy a learning remote
3. Use!

These remotes cost less than 10 USD when bought from ebay china sellers.
The remote locking signals are encrypted. True, the encryption might not be great but they are not bad either. Just scanning the frequency (like TV remote) won't help. The signals have to be decrypted. No idea how the learning remote works - they might try most commonly used techniques or might be specific to a car model. So not sure if these remotes work on all cars.
msdivy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 28th April 2014, 14:25   #7
Distinguished - BHPian
 
sudev's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Gurgaon
Posts: 3,510
Thanked: 2,385 Times
Default re: Why your "remote locking" immobilizer is useless

Interesting....And since locks can also be broken....

So tsk1979 you should patent a two step authentication process for cars of today. On the key being used it request a input from cars around. The car sends a random string which is used by key to send back encrypted string. Other cars get input that is invalid after decryption. This way a third party listener would not be able to access original information stored on the car key!!

Or bio-metric locks? Or voice activated one?
sudev is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 28th April 2014, 14:29   #8
Team-BHP Support
 
.anshuman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Good-Gaon
Posts: 7,708
Thanked: 8,929 Times
Default re: Why your "remote locking" immobilizer is useless

Which all vehicle come with Remote Locking Immobilizers? Safari Storme? Scorpio?

What kind of Immobilizer is used in Mahindra Thar?
.anshuman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th April 2014, 14:35   #9
Team-BHP Support
 
tsk1979's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 22,953
Thanked: 15,644 Times
Default re: Why your "remote locking" immobilizer is useless

Quote:
Originally Posted by sudev View Post
Interesting....And since locks can also be broken....

So tsk1979 you should patent a two step authentication process for cars of today. On the key being used it request a input from cars around. The car sends a random string which is used by key to send back encrypted string. Other cars get input that is invalid after decryption. This way a third party listener would not be able to access original information stored on the car key!!

Or bio-metric locks? Or voice activated one?
Two factor encryption is already used in computer world to prevent MTM attack. So not really patentable I guess
tsk1979 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th April 2014, 15:55   #10
Distinguished - BHPian
 
saket77's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Ranchi
Posts: 3,189
Thanked: 4,212 Times
Default re: Why your "remote locking" immobilizer is useless

I have heard about rolling codes used in remote lock systems. Also, I wondered that how come in a parking lot with so many vehicles around, only one specific vehicle unlocks. There is surely something more than just the frequency band.
saket77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th April 2014, 16:15   #11
Senior - BHPian
 
rohanjf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Adelaide
Posts: 1,190
Thanked: 684 Times
Default re: Why your "remote locking" immobilizer is useless

I am not accustomed to remote locks, so my question may sound dumb (my Palio didn't come with remote lock, so I still use the key to lock/unlock the door and to start the car, for almost six years now).

Question: with these "unsafe" remote locks, wouldn't it still be possible to open the doors of the car, even if the owner has installed such foolproof mechanisms as gear lock to prevent car theft?

Then the thieves may not be able to steal the car, but they sure can rob it.
rohanjf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th April 2014, 16:56   #12
Senior - BHPian
 
srishiva's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Bengaluru
Posts: 3,576
Thanked: 816 Times
Default re: Why your "remote locking" immobilizer is useless

I am not sure if they use the common IR remote codes used for TV etc in cars. Its based on encrypted transmission.

Not sure if what is mentioned here is just speculation without the actual knowledge about how car remotes work.
srishiva is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th April 2014, 17:06   #13
Senior - BHPian
 
el lobo 6061's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Navi Mumbai
Posts: 1,497
Thanked: 978 Times
Default re: Why your "remote locking" immobilizer is useless

@tsk1979, Tata, Mahindra & Mitsubishi cars have always been the easiest to steal. Nothing new.

I'm not a technical person, but I believe the above theory wont work VW laser cut keys which have a floating code and are paired to ECU?

Manufacturers like Tata, Mahindra & Mitsubishi will never give VW type keys as they cost 15K each as they always believe in keeping their cost low no matter what.
el lobo 6061 is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 28th April 2014, 17:13   #14
Team-BHP Support
 
tsk1979's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 22,953
Thanked: 15,644 Times
Default re: Why your "remote locking" immobilizer is useless

Quote:
Originally Posted by srishiva View Post
I am not sure if they use the common IR remote codes used for TV etc in cars. Its based on encrypted transmission.

Not sure if what is mentioned here is just speculation without the actual knowledge about how car remotes work.
As Sudev mentioned, unless you are going for encryption "both ways" encryption won't protect against a learning RF remote.

How does encryption work in normal remotes.
First you have to understand that for any remote operation you need
1. Carrier base signal - This can be 313MHz or 415MHz - Common frequencies
2. A code

The car unit will receive a code, and then it will validate the code against the code in its firmware. If it matches, it will open the locks.

Now, cheap central locking systems use a fixed code.
Eg. my car code can be 1101111000011100111.
So if my learning remote learns that code, it can be used to unlock my car.

However, a high end system can have a rolling code which changes based on some parameter.
Its like those key fobs which banks give you with a 6 digit pseudo random number.

For example, Audi remote uses this cannot be copied this way
http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/e...doc/21143b.pdf

But I am sure that basic run of the mill security systems do not have this.

Another thing. Rolling codes can be simple and complex systems.
For example, there are learning remotes which can learn even rolling codes
eg
As mentioned in the PDF, this learning remote learns KEELOQ code hopping sequence.

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Rolli...712650134.html

Last edited by tsk1979 : 28th April 2014 at 17:15.
tsk1979 is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 28th April 2014, 17:15   #15
Senior - BHPian
 
svsantosh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Hosur
Posts: 3,309
Thanked: 1,389 Times
Default re: Why your "remote locking" immobilizer is useless

OT, but can relate to this on a funny note

Last week, my octogenarian neighbor stopped by my newly got 90' M800-AT. He too was a fellow M800 owner, (just back from shopping). He was in awe of the rare AT i got and wanted to take a peek inside. I said 'uncle please wait, let me run up to get the keys', to which he said 'son you are too young' - popped in his M800 key and opened my M800 door and sat inside to look at the Auto shift.

I was speechless!
svsantosh is offline   (17) Thanks Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Remote locking system - Key fobs not working ukamath Technical Stuff 15 21st August 2017 23:15
"Cayenne" we "XC-eed" in our "Endeavour" to "Safari"? Taking powerful metal off-road SS-Traveller 4x4 Excursions 55 10th November 2016 22:56
Alto Xcite - Upgrade Manual Central Locking to Remote Central locking Laxminarayan Technical Stuff 1 28th December 2009 15:02
Central locking versus remote locking mb_jg Technical Stuff 40 2nd January 2009 20:08


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 12:44.

Copyright 2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks