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Old 8th July 2014, 21:13   #46
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Default Re: ABS - Learning and experiencing

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Originally Posted by bravo6 View Post
Going by the topic title, all this discussion isn't really helping us learn or experience the pros of ABS. What say we meet up in an isolated/traffic-free road and actually practise steering while braking hard? Only then can we instinctively do the same in an emergency.
Bang on. Yes there is urgent need to get a practice setup done and experience braking and steering.
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Old 8th July 2014, 22:21   #47
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Default Re: ABS - Learning and experiencing

How about we organize city meets at an isolated road away from traffic then? We could try different braking techniques (pressing/not pressing clutch), ABS enabled vs disabled, braking with one side on the dirt, braking and swerving to avoid a balloon, etc, measure the stopping distance in each case and draw our conclusions from the results.
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Old 9th July 2014, 08:53   #48
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Default Re: ABS - Learning and experiencing

@bravo : I would do so in Delhi NCR and know just the pace to do this at. Later in cooler weather.

@MODS : if enough people come forward to organize this may be TBHP can start a topical thread "ABS Experience TEST Meets"
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Old 9th July 2014, 15:43   #49
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Default Re: ABS - Learning and experiencing

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Originally Posted by sudev View Post
... there is urgent need to get a practice setup done and experience braking and steering.
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Originally Posted by bravo6 View Post
How about we organize city meets at an isolated road away from traffic then? We could try different braking techniques ...
No one does that, not even in Safety (Safe Driving) Training.

Whether to steer away from trouble - with and without braking - or keep on in a straight line is an individual decision at the last moment. No amount of training can influence that. That decision is an instantaneous decision based on a. personal preference for swerving, or not (just like some people cannot ride amusement park rides) and b. perception of what is better in that situation - swerve or go straight.

This decision making cannot be induced in training, nor will there be any memory. No matter how much one familiarizes oneself with the behaviour of the car on different road surfaces, one will not have time to consider that at the time of emergency braking. All one will do is to react to how the vehicle behaved and how to control the resultant instability. The difference is "calm mind" and "panic behaviour" - that would need a different kind of training. For example, if the car in front has skidded, if I have a calm mind generally, I will wait for that car's skid to be sufficiently large to actually to decide whether to swerve or not. In some cases, the car in front would have skidded out of my path so that I can continue, albeit cautiously. OTOH, if I am the panicking type, I would have most likely followed the other car, got into a skid myself, and banged into the other car, or the verge, or the shoulder.

In such situations, there is only ONE type of braking - brake as hard as one can. If one has the habit of swerving, one will swerve even without ABS (resulting in the rear moving out in a skid). If there is ABS, one will still swerve despite the jarring vibration on the brake pedal. OTOH, if one prefers braking in a straight line, the swerving action won't come naturally. So how does one train for collision avoidance by swerving? This is independent of road conditions.
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Old 9th July 2014, 20:16   #50
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Default Re: ABS - Learning and experiencing

Very educative threads. One query - Going through the videos and internet, i am of the understanding that we should have ABS on all four wheels. However, there are many popular models which provide ABS only on front wheels. How effective it is to have ABS only in front wheels? I think the purpose of allowing user to use steering is met, but is it as effective as having ABS on all four wheels?
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Old 9th July 2014, 21:04   #51
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Default Re: ABS - Learning and experiencing

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No one does that, not even in Safety (Safe Driving) Training.
That's the sad part. We can be overtly optimistic sometimes and assume everything will turn out good. We are taught how to drive a car at highway speeds, but not how to make an emergency stop.

Quote:
Whether to steer away from trouble - with and without braking - or keep on in a straight line is an individual decision at the last moment. No amount of training can influence that. That decision is an instantaneous decision based on a. personal preference for swerving, or not (just like some people cannot ride amusement park rides) and b. perception of what is better in that situation - swerve or go straight.
I'm cruising along a highway at 80kmph. A tractor suddenly cuts across a gap in the median (obscured by plants) of a highway, sees me in the fast lane, and comes to a complete stop, should I just brake hard and not turn just to follow my preference inspite of not having enough distance to stop? Or switch lanes and avoid the tractor? Driving scenarios are not fixed; one reaction (braking hard; swerving) is not applicable in all scenarios.

A combination of the above two reactions, however, can get you out of almost any tricky situation. In the tractor example above, you would first brake hard to reduce speed, check the left lane while braking, bleed off the brakes, change lanes.

We are limited by our perception of where the combined limits of us and our vehicles lie. Only practise can help you figure out how much is too much.

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This decision making cannot be induced in training, nor will there be any memory. No matter how much one familiarizes oneself with the behaviour of the car on different road surfaces, one will not have time to consider that at the time of emergency braking.
One of the first things you do when riding/driving on the racetrack is to unlearn your existing habits, which usually is panicking. This applies to how hard you brake, how hard you turn and how choppy your throttle control is. I guarantee you that if you practise enough, you will learn. And once learnt, you can instinctively do it without thinking about it. Calmly.

Once you know the grip levels your vehicle offers on track (clean surface), you will learn that on any other surface it is always less than this, and you subconsciously won't overdo stuff (Imagine a SUV swerving too hard and rolling over).


Quote:
All one will do is to react to how the vehicle behaved and how to control the resultant instability. The difference is "calm mind" and "panic behaviour" - that would need a different kind of training.
Exactly! We can unlearn our wrong insticts: braking too much and locking up; excess steering input and losing the rear. Even something as simple as checking the mirrors before switching lanes becomes an instinct after some time. If you are already used to a scenario, you will not panic. You will calmly manoeuvre away from the obstacle. If our minds couldn't get used to situations, we would have a heart-attack each time something/someone jumped into our way.

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For example, if the car in front has skidded, if I have a calm mind generally, I will wait for that car's skid to be sufficiently large to actually to decide whether to swerve or not. In some cases, the car in front would have skidded out of my path so that I can continue, albeit cautiously. OTOH, if I am the panicking type, I would have most likely followed the other car, got into a skid myself, and banged into the other car, or the verge, or the shoulder.
There! That's the kind of presence of mind I'm talking about. You can use it in almost any situation. We all have a bit of it; all we need to do is expand upon it. And the only way to do that is to practise.

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In such situations, there is only ONE type of braking - brake as hard as one can. If one has the habit of swerving, one will swerve even without ABS (resulting in the rear moving out in a skid). If there is ABS, one will still swerve despite the jarring vibration on the brake pedal. OTOH, if one prefers braking in a straight line, the swerving action won't come naturally. So how does one train for collision avoidance by swerving? This is independent of road conditions.
If you have ABS and you're not prepared to do both, you simply aren't taking full advantage of it. Like not wearing seatbelts when you have airbags.

Whether it's a cow/dog/sheep/horse/tractor/lorry/pothole/child/bike you only have two options at your disposal to help avoid them: braking and swerving. Each of them on their own may not always be sufficient. ABS lets you do both at the same time. Once you learn it, you can use it forever.


@BLR folk: Too much theory here. Who's game for a practical class?

Edit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simhi View Post
However, there are many popular models which provide ABS only on front wheels.
Could you please tell us which models they are?

Last edited by bravo6 : 9th July 2014 at 21:08.
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Old 10th July 2014, 06:27   #52
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Default Re: ABS - Learning and experiencing

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However, there are many popular models which provide ABS only on front wheels....
That is new one for me. Need to find out whats what. Assumed - wrongly? - that ABS is all wheel affair.
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Old 10th July 2014, 06:50   #53
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Default Re: ABS - Learning and experiencing

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Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post
No one does that, not even in Safety (Safe Driving) Training.
Whether to steer away from trouble - with and without braking - or keep on in a straight line is an individual decision at the last moment.
...the swerving action won't come naturally. So how does one train for collision avoidance by swerving? This is independent of road conditions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bravo6 View Post
...you subconsciously won't overdo stuff (Imagine a SUV swerving too hard and rolling over).
We can unlearn our wrong insticts: braking too much and locking up; excess steering input and losing the rear.
@BLR folk: Too much theory here. Who's game for a practical class?
Research shows that where driver training courses concentrate on skill factors, they may in fact increase systematic desensitization of fear in risky situations. A by-product of the exposure to the skid, the speed and the tight situation from which one must escape in the course, is that the fear response to such a situation is reduced. Thus the driver is more likely to enter the situation.

However, in a panic situation, a driver, whether skilled in advanced driving or not, WILL try to shove that B-pedal through the floor as well as steer away from the obstacle - it's natural instinct - and this is where ABS comes into use as an effective measure to prevent skids as well as improve stopping distances on most surfaces.
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That is new one for me. Need to find out whats what. Assumed - wrongly? - that ABS is all wheel affair.
Going by history from Wikipedia...
Quote:
Chrysler, together with the Bendix Corporation, introduced a computerized, three-channel, four-sensor all-wheel[7] ABS called "Sure Brake" for its 1971 Imperial. It was available for several years thereafter, functioned as intended, and proved reliable. In 1970, Ford added an antilock braking system called "Sure-track" to the rear wheels of Lincoln Continentals as an option; it became standard in 1971. In 1971, General Motors introduced the "Trackmaster" rear-wheel only ABS as an option on their rear-wheel drive Cadillac models and the Oldsmobile Toronado. In the same year, Nissan offered an EAL (Electro Anti-lock System) as an option on the Nissan President, which became Japan's first electronic ABS.

In 1972, four wheel drive Triumph 2500 Estates were fitted with Mullard electronic systems as standard. Such cars were very rare however and very few survive today.
...ther have been 'rear-wheels-only' systems, but never 'front-wheels-only' systems.
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Old 10th July 2014, 08:32   #54
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Default Re: ABS - Learning and experiencing

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Originally Posted by bravo6 View Post


Edit: Could you please tell us which models they are?
Sorry for the confusion. With my limited knowledge I thought that ABS is applicable with disc brake only. However, following thread clarified my understanding

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...ur-wheels.html (Does ABS require disk brakes on all the four wheels?)
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Old 10th July 2014, 09:26   #55
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Default Re: ABS - Learning and experiencing

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Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post
Whether to steer away from trouble - with and without braking - or keep on in a straight line is an individual decision at the last moment. No amount of training can influence that.

This decision making cannot be induced in training, nor will there be any memory. No matter how much one familiarizes oneself with the behaviour of the car on different road surfaces, one will not have time to consider that at the time of emergency braking. All one will do is to react to how the vehicle behaved and how to control the resultant instability. The difference is "calm mind" and "panic behaviour" - that would need a different kind of training. .
Quote:
Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
Research shows that where driver training courses concentrate on skill factors, they may in fact increase systematic desensitization of fear in risky situations. A by-product of the exposure to the skid, the speed and the tight situation from which one must escape in the course, is that the fear response to such a situation is reduced. Thus the driver is more likely to enter the situation.

However, in a panic situation, a driver, whether skilled in advanced driving or not, WILL try to shove that B-pedal through the floor as well as steer away from the obstacle - it's natural instinct .
A a general rule, I would say you can learn anything, but it does require the appropiate training. In the past I've spend some time on various driver courses. If you spend a few days practicing different braking techniques under different circumstances you are more likely to respond better in an emergency situation.

It's the same on how for instance fire fighting crews or cockpit crews get trained. You run them through many different scenario's, many times, you provide them with a number of standardised responses. But in the real world they are likely to encounter a different scenario. Based on their training they will be able to deal with it more appropiately. Partly because their training ensures they won't panick, and partly because they will have been in similar situations before.

The biggest problem with emergency stops is that none of us gets enough practice. Unless you practice anything on a regular basis its unlikely to really stick, at least when it comes to these sort of skills that need to kick in during an emergency. So my 'brake training" of many years ago has most likely no practical meaning at all, because it was a one off, many years ago.

I'm not convinced that drivers will steer around an object at all. I am pretty convinced that nearly everybody will slam on the brakes though.

The fact that some training might invite some people to take bigger risk is probably true. But apperently that sort of behaviour is equally true for when we started equipping cars with all sorts of active and passive safety features. Anything that makes us feel safer, is likely to us a (false) sense of invulnerability as well.

Small analogy with general aviation: It has been proven, (FAA research) in general aviation that it is not experience that makes a safe pilot. A pilot that just passed his check ride and has accumulated say 45 hours has the same statistical chance of being in a fatal accident as a pilot that has logged, say 15.000 hours. What makes a safe pilot and reduces his/her statistical chance on accident is his/her approach to overall safety. Part of that is very specific training, but mind set is more important.

Although I've never seen any research into the same for cars I believe it's probably the same.

Jeroen
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Old 10th July 2014, 18:21   #56
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Default Re: ABS - Learning and experiencing

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... We are taught how to drive a car at highway speeds, ...
Where? Which driving school? Do you realize no driving school in India teaches ANYONE where to be on the road, nor proper road behaviour, at any given time or any situation? It is only in other countries (are you not from India?) that one has to drive properly on the highways - with proper road behaviour - to be eligible for a license.

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... I'm cruising along a highway at 80kmph. ... one reaction (braking hard; swerving) is not applicable in all scenarios. ...
Correct. I wrote about the minimum requirement - braking hard. Whether you swerve or not is an instantaneous decision no amount of training will condition you for. If you drive properly in the city, you will drive properly on the highway. This is not a matter of training, this is a matter of personal sensitivity, civic consciousness and discipline. THOSE things can be taught, not the other stuff. Unfortunately they aren't. That is why a person who has grown up breaking rules while driving 2-wheelers, continues to be a nuisance to others when driving a car (in India). Maybe now you can understand why the tractor happens to be in your path on the highway.

In developed countries, ALL systems are created for predictability, since predictability keeps everyone safe. In India we take pride in the unpredictability in India!

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Originally Posted by bravo6 View Post
... Only practise can help you figure out how much is too much. ...
IF the same surprise elements can be reproduced while doing practice, sure. BUT unless you create it for yourself, no one else will - willingly. Sure, you can drive for many Kms on an empty road for practice - the only thing you will learn is how your car behaves - NOT YOUR BRAIN. Brain reacts in a completely different way.

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... One of the first things you do when riding/driving on the racetrack is ...
Not a relevant example in our discussion, isn't it? Have you taken racetrack training?

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Originally Posted by bravo6 View Post
... We can unlearn our wrong insticts: braking too much and locking up; excess steering input and losing the rear. ...
... Too much theory here. Who's game for a practical class? ...
Now who is talking theory here?

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Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
Research shows that where driver training courses concentrate on skill factors, they may in fact increase systematic desensitization of fear in risky situations. ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
A a general rule, I would say you can learn anything, but it does require the appropiate training. ...
Let us not flog "Practice makes perfect" to death. It is not valid in certain situations.

Test drivers - who test cars with experimental components, sub-systems, systems, or software - are given special training (not general 'safe driving' training) because they have to drive on public roads. That special training is about HOW TO handle a failure situation - where something has failed in the car. Such failures are unexpected, so they are only trained how to handle a failure in the car - ANY Car, any time, *anywhere*, whether in the city or on the highway no matter whether it has ABS or XYZ or not. To start with, they are experienced drivers with proper driving training. They are given separate training to condition their minds to surprises, but that is not on the road.

What one cannot do is create that element of surprise that can condition the brain. In self defense and hand-to-hand combat yes, but not at all in road driving. It is like NO amount of track training can teach you how to overtake a faster runner in a 100m race. If that element of surprise is missing in your training, you are just learning how to drive and control your vehicle. So who provides training with the surprise element? No one - it is quite an impossible task.
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Old 10th July 2014, 19:15   #57
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Default Re: ABS - Learning and experiencing

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Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post
...no driving school in India teaches ANYONE where to be on the road, nor proper road behaviour, at any given time or any situation...
...a person who has grown up breaking rules while driving 2-wheelers, continues to be a nuisance to others when driving a car (in India).

In developed countries, ALL systems are created for predictability, since predictability keeps everyone safe. In India we take pride in the unpredictability in India!
How true. A driving trainer in India is not trained to be a trainer! If he can drive, he can teach someone else to drive! Just like that.
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Brain reacts in a completely different way.
Let us not flog "Practice makes perfect" to death. It is not valid in certain situations.
Again, true. Let's say we teach someone about handbrake turns. Six months down the line, ask him to do a handbrake turn, and he can't do it properly any more - because he's had no opportunity to practice handbrake turns on public roads, and he doesn't have access to a racetrack or public road. So what Jeroen says is absolutely correct...
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Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
Unless you practice anything on a regular basis its unlikely to really stick, at least when it comes to these sort of skills that need to kick in during an emergency. So my 'brake training" of many years ago has most likely no practical meaning at all, because it was a one off, many years ago.
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Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post
If that element of surprise is missing in your training, you are just learning how to drive and control your vehicle.
How we all wish someone can just train Indian drivers to drive and control their vehicles - that is all!
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Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post
So who provides training with the surprise element? No one - it is quite an impossible task.
There are special trainers who do that - they teach what is known as pursuit training, as well as driving for high-risk clients. But they are very few and far between - I only know of one (and hope to acquire some skills from him someday soon!)
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Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
...their training ensures they won't panick...
Yes. Once they are aware of certain consequences, the element of surprise would be eliminated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
I'm not convinced that drivers will steer around an object at all. I am pretty convinced that nearly everybody will slam on the brakes though.
Without some training, they wouldn't even slam on the brakes. Case in point: the valet with the Lamborghini (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/c...w/38098557.cms) didn't - so he went into a wall.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
The fact that some training might invite some people to take bigger risk is probably true. But apperently that sort of behaviour is equally true for when we started equipping cars with all sorts of active and passive safety features. Anything that makes us feel safer, is likely to us a (false) sense of invulnerability as well.
What is called 'risk compensation' - something I was taught some time ago! Forget the ABS and ESC and forward collision avoidance system; drive a car like any other car!
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Although I've never seen any research into the same for cars I believe it's probably the same.
It is. Will send you some links soon.
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Old 10th July 2014, 21:45   #58
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Default Re: ABS - Learning and experiencing

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Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
they may in fact increase systematic desensitization of fear in risky situations
When you are travelling with your family, in case of an emergency, would you prefer react while panicking, or address the situation calmly?


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Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
The biggest problem with emergency stops is that none of us gets enough practice. Unless you practice anything on a regular basis its unlikely to really stick,
Agreed. A weekend drive on Mysore Road should keep you sharp.

Quote:
I'm not convinced that drivers will steer around an object at all. I am pretty convinced that nearly everybody will slam on the brakes though.
Hence the need to learn and experience the advantage of ABS firsthand. You don't learn till you try it yourself.


Quote:
A pilot that just passed his check ride and has accumulated say 45 hours has the same statistical chance of being in a fatal accident as a pilot that has logged, say 15.000 hours. What makes a safe pilot and reduces his/her statistical chance on accident is his/her approach to overall safety. Part of that is very specific training, but mind set is more important.
Ah you must be a pilot
One major difference between flying and driving though: whilst accelerating to take off speed, you'll never have another land vehicle trying to make it across the runway before you do! No other flight would try to beat you to the start of the runway either! You can get hit even when you are parked on the road side.


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Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post
Where? Which driving school?
Meant parents, uncles, aunties, friends, relatives, etc who offer to share their vast knowledge of driving, but are mum when it comes to braking.

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Correct. I wrote about the minimum requirement - braking hard.
Minimum? Are you saying you wouldn't do everything you can to avoid a crash?

Quote:
Whether you swerve or not is an instantaneous decision no amount of training will condition you for.
Yes, but the question is *can* you swerve if the need arises?


Quote:
If you drive properly in the city, you will drive properly on the highway. This is not a matter of training, this is a matter of personal sensitivity, civic consciousness and discipline. THOSE things can be taught, not the other stuff.
You seem to overlook the physics part: at higher speeds, you have less time to react, and need more stopping distance. No matter how disciplined/"civilized" you are, if you don't take the physical limitations in to account, you are not driving safely.


Quote:
Maybe now you can understand why the tractor happens to be in your path on the highway.
That is perhaps a philosophical question, and not one that I can do anything about. What I can do is to drive around such morons and live to see another day.

Quote:
In developed countries, ALL systems are created for predictability, since predictability keeps everyone safe. In India we take pride in the unpredictability in India!
I think we're getting closer to the issue here: there might be a thousand possible, unpredictable scenarios that you could come across. For every single one of them, your response is the same: brake hard; steer if needed. Now do you see the point?

Quote:
IF the same surprise elements can be reproduced while doing practice, sure. BUT unless you create it for yourself, no one else will - willingly. Sure, you can drive for many Kms on an empty road for practice - the only thing you will learn is how your car behaves - NOT YOUR BRAIN. Brain reacts in a completely different way.
It appears you have skipped the part about driving while avoiding balloons and hence all this confusion.(cones can cause some damage to the car too)

Quote:
What one cannot do is create that element of surprise that can condition the brain. In self defense and hand-to-hand combat yes, but not at all in road driving.
Alright off the top of my head, here's the drill we can use to practise:
  • You drive at a certain, constant speed, in a straight line.
  • Two guys, one on each side of the road are holding a balloon.
  • As you draw closer, one of them randomly throws the balloon into your path
  • Your mission is to avoid killing the balloon
  • The balloon throwing is timed so that it gradually becomes harder and harder to avoid it by braking alone, and you would have to steer away as well.
After a few dozen times of doing it, you will instinctively be able to brake and steer at the same time.

And you will have plenty of opportunities on our streets to keep your skills sharp. Whether it's avoiding a balloon, a kid, a jaywalker, a two wheeler, lorry, etc, you have the basic skills to avoid them all (laws of physics permitting of course).
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Old 10th July 2014, 22:26   #59
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When you are travelling with your family, in case of an emergency, would you prefer react while panicking, or address the situation calmly?
Good question, bravo6. Recently, I completed training with an Australian company to become a trainer in Low Risk Driving. The best way of driving, i.e. the point where you would be driving at the lowest risk, would be when you are in a state of chronic unease. You are not in a state of panic, nor are you in such a relaxed state that you simply ignore evidences of impending emergency - and that, is exactly what I teach - evidence-based driving.
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Originally Posted by bravo6 View Post
...at higher speeds, you have less time to react, and need more stopping distance. No matter how disciplined/"civilized" you are, if you don't take the physical limitations in to account, you are not driving safely.
Wrong. You are only driving safely, or low-risk, when your stopping distance is secure and safe despite whatever speed you are driving at. Again, how you can judge that is what I teach.
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Originally Posted by bravo6 View Post
...there might be a thousand possible, unpredictable scenarios that you could come across. For every single one of them, your response is the same: brake hard; steer if needed. Now do you see the point?
No. Have you considered accelerating to get out of an unpredictable scenario?
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Originally Posted by bravo6 View Post
...you will have plenty of opportunities on our streets to keep your skills sharp. Whether it's avoiding a balloon, a kid, a jaywalker, a two wheeler, lorry, etc, you have the basic skills to avoid them all (laws of physics permitting of course).
If you were running towards me and I tossed a balloon (or a coconut) at your face, you would not only stop dead in your track, but also duck to avoid being hit by the balloon. That's instinct. At the wheel, the same instinct takes over in the form of the brake pedal and the steering wheel - you try to stop and swerve, all at the same time. Hard-wiring that into a driver's brain is the easiest of all driving procedures. Looking at me to understand whether I will actually toss the coconut at you or I am just play-acting - that is the tougher part!
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Old 10th July 2014, 22:47   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bravo6 View Post
One major difference between flying and driving though: whilst accelerating to take off speed, you'll never have another land vehicle trying to make it across the runway before you do! No other flight would try to beat you to the start of the runway either! You can get hit even when you are parked on the road side.
Unfortunately, runway incursion happen on a fairly frequent basis. Mostly other planes taxing across the runway when they shouldn't, but occasionally car/trucks that shouldn't be there. And like roads, lots of wildlife crossing the runways. On more then one occasion I had to go around for a deer or a coyote. Remember the Tenerife disaster. A KLM Boeing 747 took off, whilst a Panam Boeing 747 was on the runway taxing. To date the aviation accidents with the most casualties.

Or how about this very recent one:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28200666 Not an accident, but too close for comfort.

And yes parked planes do get hit by other planes as well.

My personal most scary experience: when I was on short final and somebody else was trying to land on the very same runway coming from the opposite side!

Last edited by Jeroen : 10th July 2014 at 22:49.
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