Go Back   Team-BHP > Under the Hood > Technical Stuff


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 10th July 2014, 23:19   #61
BHPian
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 80
Thanked: 87 Times
Default Re: ABS - Learning and experiencing

Quote:
Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
Good question, bravo6. Recently, I completed training with an Australian company to become a trainer in Low Risk Driving. The best way of driving, i.e. the point where you would be driving at the lowest risk, would be when you are in a state of chronic unease.
Define "unease." What someone might find uneasy in Australia (regarding driving) can be considered "normal" in India. You wouldn't expect people in developed nations to jump red lights, but here we see it happen everday, and we are used to it. Even when we have a green light, we check all around to make sure if it's safe to proceed. We don't panic; we're not uneasy; we are desensitized by this constant occurence. And we deal with it appropriately.

Now put a foreigner behind the wheel and ask him how comfortable he is driving in such conditions.

Quote:
Wrong. You are only driving safely, or low-risk, when your stopping distance is secure and safe despite whatever speed you are driving at. Again, how you can judge that is what I teach.
You're reading this out of context. This was regarding "if you drive properly in the city, you drive properly on the highway" argument. In city, it is safe to maintain a smaller gap from the vehicle in front of you when driving slow. If you do the same on the highway, do you still consider it safe?

Quote:
No. Have you considered accelerating to get out of an unpredictable scenario?
On my bike, all the time. On a wider, heavier, slower accelerating car, not always possible.

Also, accelerating works best when there is no sudden change of direction. Like trying to avoid being rear-ended by the bus behind who didn't see the hump ahead. Accelerating helps avoid obstacles behind you, braking helps with those in front of you.

Quote:
If you were running towards me and I tossed a balloon (or a coconut) at your face, you would not only stop dead in your track, but also duck to avoid being hit by the balloon. That's instinct. At the wheel, the same instinct takes over in the form of the brake pedal and the steering wheel - you try to stop and swerve, all at the same time. Hard-wiring that into a driver's brain is the easiest of all driving procedures. Looking at me to understand whether I will actually toss the coconut at you or I am just play-acting - that is the tougher part!
If your house caught fire, running around screaming and waving around your arms about does not put out the fire. You have to call the fire fighters. Or at the very least, fight the fire yourself.

Survival instincts are ingrained into us for a reason, and they have definitely help us in certain situations.

But they are often detrimental when it comes to driving. If I chuck a coconut at you when you're driving, your primary instinct is to duck even though you know the windshield will protect you. Once you duck behind the dashboard, you can no longer see where you're headed. Isn't this a greater risk when driving?

These instincts certainly helped our race survive this long. But they are not optimum when it comes to driving.

Sedan drivers buying SUVs learn not to turn too sharply.

Those who adapt survive. Those who don't become a statistic.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
My personal most scary experience: when I was on short final and somebody else was trying to land on the very same runway coming from the opposite side!
Wow! That must have been quite an experience!!

Now, if that is the rate of mishaps inspite of having an ATC to prevent you from flying in to other planes, and a ground crew to keep the runways/taxiways clear, you calculate how much riskier it is out on the roads.

--------------------------------------------------------

Edit: All this aside, if an educated group of car enthusiasts can't accept the proven fact that technology can improve their safety, how is a layman supposed to accept wearing seatbelts improves his chance of survival?

How can you blindly disregard something as not being possible without even trying it? Perhaps I'm trying to teach an old dog new tricks.

Last edited by bravo6 : 10th July 2014 at 23:30.
bravo6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th July 2014, 00:47   #62
Distinguished - BHPian
 
SS-Traveller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 6,617
Thanked: 10,778 Times
Default Re: ABS - Learning and experiencing

Quote:
Originally Posted by bravo6 View Post
Define "unease." You wouldn't expect people in developed nations to jump red lights, but here we see it happen everday, and we are used to it. Even when we have a green light, we check all around to make sure if it's safe to proceed. We don't panic; we're not uneasy; we are desensitized by this constant occurence. And we deal with it appropriately.
That (the part in bold), exactly, is chronic unease. You do not take a green light for granted, whether in Australia or India. If you were desensitized (or panicked) by this constant occurrence of jumping red lights in India, you would either
1. come to a dead stop at every green light first, as if it is a stop sign (that's total panic), or
2. shoot through a green or red, regardless of other traffic (total desensitization).
Quote:
Originally Posted by bravo6 View Post
What someone might find uneasy in Australia (regarding driving) can be considered "normal" in India.
On the contrary, what they find 'normal', I was uneasy with at first. Once their drivers enter a rotary, they drive right around without regard to the traffic approaching from other exits - which Der Alte succinctly described...
Quote:
Originally Posted by DerAlte
In developed countries, ALL systems are created for predictability, since predictability keeps everyone safe. In India we take pride in the unpredictability in India!
...but here I was with my baggage of driving in India, hesitating at every exit and being too slow, as a result holding up traffic.

On the other hand, I decided to try out civilized driving in Delhi a few times. Approaching a roundabout at 50 km/h, with traffic already going round the circle, I braked in and stopped like I would in any other country with civilized traffic. The traffic on the circle STOPPED! A Scorpio approaching at 50 km/h and braking to a stop before entering the circle, is unheard of in India! So not one of the cars dared to challenge a white SUV in the heart of Delhi as far as right of way was concerned.

Be that as it may, I believe we have now gone completely off-topic on this thread, and need to hit the brake pedal, whether ABS-equipped or not, to steer this thread back on course.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bravo6 View Post
Edit: All this aside, if an educated group of car enthusiasts can't accept the proven fact that technology can improve their safety, how is a layman supposed to accept wearing seatbelts improves his chance of survival?

How can you blindly disregard something as not being possible without even trying it? Perhaps I'm trying to teach an old dog new tricks.
Where did anyone say that?
SS-Traveller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th July 2014, 06:14   #63
Distinguished - BHPian
 
sudev's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Gurgaon
Posts: 3,510
Thanked: 2,385 Times
Default Re: ABS - Learning and experiencing

This is going OT as far as issue of to practice or not is concerned. I believe in test practice.

Another issue I am observing here - and in general - mostly people think high speed highway scenarios and ABS. Please believe that ABS can be a help even within city markets on wet days. A scenario more likely to happen than most are willing to believe.
sudev is online now   (2) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 11th July 2014, 09:02   #64
Distinguished - BHPian
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Delhi
Posts: 3,062
Thanked: 6,203 Times
Default Re: ABS - Learning and experiencing

Quote:
Originally Posted by bravo6 View Post
Define "unease." What someone might find uneasy in Australia (regarding driving) can be considered "normal" in India. You wouldn't expect people in developed nations to jump red lights, but here we see it happen everday, and we are used to it. Even when we have a green light, we check all around to make sure if it's safe to proceed. We don't panic; we're not uneasy; we are desensitized by this constant occurence. And we deal with it appropriately.

Now put a foreigner behind the wheel and ask him how comfortable he is driving in such conditions.

Survival instincts are ingrained into us for a reason, and they have definitely help us in certain situations.

Wow! That must have been quite an experience!!

Now, if that is the rate of mishaps inspite of having an ATC to prevent you from flying in to other planes, and a ground crew to keep the runways/taxiways clear, you calculate how much riskier it is out on the roads.
.
I'll make an attempt to give a foreigners perspective at the risk of offending or being moderated. Its not my intention to offend, but to give my perspective/opinion/experience/perception. Whether that's true or not is for everybody to judge by themselves

I am a foreigner and I've been in India for two years now. I'm on the road in various parts of India during the week in a car and in the weekend as well, but also on my Royal Enfield Bullet.

It's not so much that I'm uncomfortable in Indian traffic at all. Dealing with Indian traffic for me is just being very cautious, much more then say when I drive in Europe or the USA. From very early on my approach is that just about any Indian driver is a selfish lunatic, no offense. That in itself leads to very predictive behaviour.

I think, no offense, India isn't so much used to a chaotic traffic at all, rather India appears to be completely desensitized to the horrific accident statistics. Hate to say it, but I find a "life is cheap" attitude in India. Not just in road accidents, but in many other aspects of Indian society.

I have yet to see any consistent and structureal approach to adress the horrific traffic accidents. It doesn't even appear to be on anybodies political agenda. It appears to me as the status quo and nobody seems to care and it thus nobody seems to be bothered to change anything at all. Save for some car enthousiast debating ABS, air bags and such.

On the flying experience, this was at a so-called non-towered airport. So no ATC. Pilots need to adhere to stringent procedures which include broadcasting your position and intentions at various stages of the approach. On this particular airport there was no requirement to have a radio. But, you also need to decide what the most suitable runway is. Without a radio the only way to do so is to look for the air sock on the airport indicating the wind direction. This guy didn't even do that. So he came from the wrong direction with in fact a strong tail wind, which isn't a great thing either.

Jeroen
Jeroen is offline   (6) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 11th July 2014, 22:33   #65
BHPian
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 80
Thanked: 87 Times
Default Re: ABS - Learning and experiencing

Quote:
Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
Where did anyone say that?
That's the impression I got looking at the all the arguments against practising ABS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sudev View Post
This is going OT as far as issue of to practice or not is concerned. I believe in test practice.
Amen!

Quote:
Please believe that ABS can be a help even within city markets on wet days. A scenario more likely to happen than most are willing to believe.
And also when wheels are on different surfaces. Think left wheels on mud, right on tarmac.
bravo6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th July 2014, 18:00   #66
Senior - BHPian
 
joybhowmik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 1,313
Thanked: 1,905 Times
Default Re: ABS - Learning and experiencing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
From very early on my approach is that just about any Indian driver is a selfish lunatic, no offense. That in itself leads to very predictive behaviour.

Jeroen
At risk of going OT - all I can say about the aforesaid is that it is so true.
In a world which follows no rules... it is interesting to see how, people anticipate the chaos, and still manage to stay safe.


Regarding the debate itself, I am a lay person when it comes to ABS. All I know is that it saves lives, by allowing a driver to steer safely away from a dangerous situation when brakes can't make the vehicle come to a complete stop before it.

I think that's all that really matters about ABS.

Last edited by joybhowmik : 12th July 2014 at 18:05.
joybhowmik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th July 2014, 11:56   #67
BHPian
 
dre@ms's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: MADRAS
Posts: 577
Thanked: 170 Times
Default Re: ABS - Learning and experiencing

After going through 5 pages of discussion, I am still confused. Can some one summarize how to effectively use/engage ABS.
Braking hard steering to the left/right or hold on with the steering ??
dre@ms is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th July 2014, 12:09   #68
Distinguished - BHPian
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Delhi
Posts: 3,062
Thanked: 6,203 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dre@ms View Post
After going through 5 pages of discussion, I am still confused. Can some one summarize how to effectively use/engage ABS.
Braking hard steering to the left/right or hold on with the steering ??

Brake hard, keep your foot on the brake pedal. Usually you can feel and hear the ABS system working. The main advantage is that whilst braking in an ABS equipped car you can keep good steerage in most situations. So if you need to steer left or right to avoid a collision, whilst also full on the brake, ABS will let you do that.

Jeroen
Jeroen is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 16th July 2014, 12:13   #69
BHPian
 
dre@ms's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: MADRAS
Posts: 577
Thanked: 170 Times
Default Re: ABS - Learning and experiencing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
Brake hard, keep your foot on the brake pedal. Usually you can feel and hear the ABS system working. The main advantage is that whilst braking in an ABS equipped car you can keep good steerage in most situations. So if you need to steer left or right to avoid a collision, whilst also full on the brake, ABS will let you do that.

Jeroen
If I am understanding it right, if the hard braking doesn't avoid a collision, then I need to steer either left/right to avoid. If not, just brake hard and let ABS do its thing.
dre@ms is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th July 2014, 12:15   #70
Distinguished - BHPian
 
SS-Traveller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 6,617
Thanked: 10,778 Times
Default Re: ABS - Learning and experiencing

Quote:
Originally Posted by dre@ms View Post
...I am still confused. Can some one summarize how to effectively use/engage ABS.
Braking hard steering to the left/right or hold on with the steering ??
Brake very hard in an emergency. Try pushing the pedal through the floor.

Ignore the vibrations felt when braking very hard.

If your instinct / judgment says the car won't stop before hitting the obstacle ahead, steer around the obstacle if necessary & possible. ABS allows you to do that.

That is all.
SS-Traveller is offline   (5) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 16th July 2014, 12:24   #71
BHPian
 
dre@ms's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: MADRAS
Posts: 577
Thanked: 170 Times
Default Re: ABS - Learning and experiencing

Quote:
Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
Brake very hard in an emergency. Try pushing the pedal through the floor.

Ignore the vibrations felt when braking very hard.

If your instinct / judgment says the car won't stop before hitting the obstacle ahead, steer around the obstacle if necessary & possible. ABS allows you to do that.

That is all.
Many thanks for the info. I was one ignorant fellow who boasted about ABS/EBD, Airbags in my car but not knowing when it would kick in or how to use it. Now I am confident and can teach others too.
dre@ms is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th July 2014, 16:59   #72
Senior - BHPian
 
DerAlte's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 8,076
Thanked: 2,876 Times
Default Re: ABS - Learning and experiencing

Quote:
Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
... Ignore the vibrations ...
The first time I had experienced it, I almost jumped out of my skin! Was driving a Passat Kombi in a heavy snowfall and looking for parking in a parallel parking zone, and had to brake to check if my car will fit into a slot. Brake, and car would slide a wee bit and go brrrrrr at even 5Kmph.
DerAlte is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 16th July 2014, 19:54   #73
Distinguished - BHPian
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Delhi
Posts: 3,062
Thanked: 6,203 Times
Default Re: ABS - Learning and experiencing

Quote:
Originally Posted by DerAlte View Post
The first time I had experienced it, I almost jumped out of my skin! Was driving a Passat Kombi in a heavy snowfall and looking for parking in a parallel parking zone, and had to brake to check if my car will fit into a slot. Brake, and car would slide a wee bit and go brrrrrr at even 5Kmph.
I know the feeling. And some people might actually panic and reduce pressure on the brakes which deactivates the ABS. So lets' not go back into organizing a ABS test. But I would urge everyone to at least try your ABS once, if you haven't experienced it. Just make sure you are doing it in a safe place with nobody behind you. You don't need to go very fast. Just stomp on the brakes as hard as you can and experience the jutter.

Jeroen
Jeroen is offline   (2) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 16th July 2014, 20:35   #74
BHPian
 
sudeep.pandya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Chhindwara(M.P)
Posts: 183
Thanked: 299 Times
Default Re: ABS - Learning and experiencing

My observations and experience of 5 years with ABS -

I have at least saved 3 dogs till date with the help of ABS. OTOH I feel I have become more confident and do higher speeds than I used to do before because of the assurance I have in my mind. *I AM* a very safe driver and almost drive in a forgiving mode to other fellas.

Following are my takings -

- ABS helps you to ascertain the limits of the car (As and when required)
- It is a real time thingy and you get to know when the tyres are skidding.
- And if things are not in your hands, slam it hard, keep praying and maneuver.
- I experimented with keeping one side on slush and other side tarmac, the braking was dismal. It took its own sweet time to stop. (thats negative)


All in all, its more of an advantage and understanding your ABS is very important than just keeping it for some day emergencies.

My take - If you have got a new car, take it out for a spin and try to understand the braking behaviour of your car.
sudeep.pandya is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th January 2016, 12:19   #75
BHPian
 
dpkbehera's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Hyderabad, Pune
Posts: 311
Thanked: 205 Times
Post Re: ABS - Learning and experiencing

An excellent article..Infact the Car Dealers should take a lead and educate/train the customers about important features about a car especially those related to safety. ABS was just a buzzword for me till i came across this article. And i completely agree with the below mentioned opinions i.e.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sudeep.pandya View Post

My take - If you have got a new car, take it out for a spin and try to understand the braking behaviour of your car.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
Brake very hard in an emergency. Try pushing the pedal through the floor.

Ignore the vibrations felt when braking very hard.

If your instinct / judgment says the car won't stop before hitting the obstacle ahead, steer around the obstacle if necessary & possible. ABS allows you to do that.

That is all.
dpkbehera is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Experiencing Wildlife and Nature - Kaziranga National Park nandita_bayan21 Travelogues 10 5th January 2015 14:36
Experiencing a bit of Enchanting Bali and Malaysia Lukeskywalker Travelogues 28 30th December 2013 12:17
Experiencing the Monsoon - On the Horse Face and on top of KA - A Trekkalog addyhemmige Travelogues 125 23rd February 2011 12:03
Learning to brake on a car with ABS adnaps Technical Stuff 35 8th February 2010 15:31


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 03:08.

Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks