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Old 15th June 2014, 12:46   #106
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Default Re: XUV500 diagnosed with broken spot welds. Re-weld or replace the frame?

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Originally Posted by humyum View Post
Some pages back, I had posted quite a similar opinion which I don't think anyone bothered to read. Whatever you have said in your post sums everything up really well. Asking for a new car in such a case is just asking for too much.

Why such thoughts ? Is it because we are in India so "sab kuch Chalta hai Attitude"

I posted this before too
http://www.thecarconnection.com/news...in-a-few-cases
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Old 15th June 2014, 13:09   #107
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Default Re: XUV500 diagnosed with broken spot welds. Re-weld or replace the frame?

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Originally Posted by humyum View Post
Sorry, not true. In many old cars where rusting is an issue, panels are removed and new ones spot welded back, it's as good as new. Nothing is going to permanently impact a modern day vehicle as long as the worksmanship is A 1. My 12 year old sister can do a spot weld if given a choice, its that easy.
Are we assuming that he would get A1 workmanship at a service-center?

Quote:
For your information, heres how it's done -->
...
Thanks for the link. Have done basic welding myself as part of first year engg.

Quote:
Oh please, comparing accident vehicles to just a SINGULAR spot weld not in place is just WRONG. Structurally compromised vehicle , sounds so over dramatized.
If it is not a big deal, why is M&M even offering to change the entire shell?


Quote:
Broken spot 'weld' not 'welds', its singular. Yes the A pillar in an even of a collision does take a lot of hit, but there is nothing the new car will have different from this car apart from the factory doing the same thing what the workshop will redo in his car. NO difference.
It is plural. Quoting the opening post for your easy reference. Please note, besides the spot-welds, it is also talking about cutting the A-pillar and welding it back.

Quote:
....the problem has finally been diagnosed as broken spot welds on the LHS A Pillar.
....
Now They are asking me to allow them either:
1. Cut the pillar, re-weld the broken spot welds, then weld the pillar back and repaint etc. but no assurance that more welds wont come off in the future.
One key aspect that we are missing here is that the owner did not do anything wrong and there is no reason why he should accept a copy which is not OK. This is not a "made-to-cost" entry-level vehicle after all. What you are saying seems like the classic "chalta-hain" and "jugaad-fix" line of thinking prevalent in majority of India.

I do believe that you are underplaying the issue. But that's OK, I respect your opinion.

Last edited by SDP : 15th June 2014 at 13:10.
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Old 16th June 2014, 09:17   #108
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Default Re: XUV500 diagnosed with broken spot welds. Re-weld or replace the frame?

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Originally Posted by SDP View Post
The opening post mentions the investigation that M&M has done for this issue and also lists the solution options offered by them. Unfortunately, given that its a monocoque construction, any cutting and re-welding is going to permanently impact the structural integrity of the vehicle. Its general knowledge among auto-enthusiasts that when buying a used car, accident repair cars should be avoided like the plague. The reason is precisely the compromised structural integrity because of which in case of another accident, the vehicle would be less safe than when it was in its original state.
Coming back to the case, the first option is exactly that and the result is going to be a structurally compromised vehicle ...which is not caused by a accident by the owner, but caused by a manufacturing defect.

The second option about replacing the entire body frame is again not in favour of the OP as the fit and finish when the vehicle is assembled at the service center would be significantly inferior to a factory fit & finish. Creaking sounds, rattling, dangling wires/pipes and what not. There is no logical reason why the OP should settle with all of that for no fault of his.

There is no third option offered by M&M yet.

Sorry, have to disagree here. A monocoque SUV with broken spot-welds on one of the most precarious points of the body (i.e. the A-pillar) is a BIG deal. We are not talking about a infotainment system that automatically restarts once in a while or a faulty bonnet-sensor which triggers a false door-open alarm... for all that there is the dedicated niggles thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by humyum View Post
Sorry, not true. In many old cars where rusting is an issue, panels are removed and new ones spot welded back, it's as good as new. Nothing is going to permanently impact a modern day vehicle as long as the worksmanship is A 1. My 12 year old sister can do a spot weld if given a choice, its that easy.

Oh please, comparing accident vehicles to just a SINGULAR spot weld not in place is just WRONG. Structurally compromised vehicle , sounds so over dramatized.

The second option should not be in favor by the OP not because of the fit and finish issues etc etc but because it's like replacing the entire chassis for a slight cross member brush that your vehicle might have taken during a trip to Ladakh or an engine replacement because the cause being head gasket failure.
Just what I was thinking when I was reading the post yesterday morning. To compare this incident to an accident case scenario isn't correct. In an accident, there is a lot more damage which can occur. Comparing that with missing spot welds doesn't make sense to me atleast. Agreed that the missing spot welds are in a very important part of the vehicle and a BIG deal. I don't know what the real rationale behind the offer from M & M to replace the entire body frame. It might just be a good gesture, but as it turns out, they have even refused to do that as well. If they did that the fit and finish will be an issue and there is no reason kk21 should suffer that. But I feel he deserves to have the highest Mahindra service engineers assigned to this job and go with option 1. If they feel the car must be replaced, then he should pursue a replacement. We need to give them another chance at this. My biggest issue at the moment with Mahindra is that they seem to be slow and silent on this issue, which is annoying. I'd have appreciated a much better involvement from them for an issue like this, given the fact that their service centers are not regarded as providing good services.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SDP View Post
One key aspect that we are missing here is that the owner did not do anything wrong and there is no reason why he should accept a copy which is not OK. This is not a "made-to-cost" entry-level vehicle after all. What you are saying seems like the classic "chalta-hain" and "jugaad-fix" line of thinking prevalent in majority of India.

I do believe that you are underplaying the issue. But that's OK, I respect your opinion.
I feel the XUV is a "made to cost" vehicle because there is no other SUV in that price range with all the bells and whistles with a quality that is far less than the competition. I realize a lot of us are going to come back to me with how brands like Audi and Mercs have worse issues. But honestly I believe XUV is definitely built to a cost with compromise in quality in several areas. I recently saw a vehicle on lease transfer for my colleague and we were shocked to find out it had a leaking roof which wasn't corrected in 3 attempts by the service personnel!!

Also, I completely respect your opinion as well. It did make me think for a bit and I understand all of us are trying to get the best possible solution for OP, but my intention is to just share my opinion in making this fair for both parties. We can't be just one sided. In a situation like this I feel we need to listen to what both parties have to say. If Mahindra doesn't step up in resolving this matter in time and in an efficient and good workmanship, then my support goes out to kk21 in asking for an unconditional replacement. Mahindra will also go down in my books as the worst manufacturer. I have been strongly contemplating moving to XUV as my next vehicle (from Honda City) and the outcome of an incident like this will seal my decision on it.

Last edited by sudeepg : 16th June 2014 at 09:29. Reason: Forgot to include additional comment
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Old 16th June 2014, 10:25   #109
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Default Re: XUV500 diagnosed with broken spot welds. Re-weld or replace the frame?

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Originally Posted by sudeepg View Post
...
I feel the XUV is a "made to cost" vehicle because there is no other SUV in that price range with all the bells and whistles with a quality that is far less than the competition.
Hope you are aware of the margins that manufacturers make on SUVs. As GTO would put it, the margins are F-A-T.
So M&M pricing the XUV lower than the competition need not necessarily mean lower quality. It could as well mean lower margins.

Quote:
...I recently saw a vehicle on lease transfer for my colleague and we were shocked to find out it had a leaking roof which wasn't corrected in 3 attempts by the service personnel!!
Most likely a result of a case similar to what we are discussing where the owner should have asked for a replacement rather than relying on the workmanship of the incompetent service center.

Quote:
....But honestly I believe XUV is definitely built to a cost with compromise in quality in several areas.
...
I have been strongly contemplating moving to XUV as my next vehicle ....
You lost me there buddy! I have not seen someone who is convinced about a vehicle's poor quality and is contemplating it as the next vehicle.
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Old 16th June 2014, 10:40   #110
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Default Re: XUV500 diagnosed with broken spot welds. Re-weld or replace the frame?

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Originally Posted by SDP View Post
You lost me there buddy! I have not seen someone who is convinced about a vehicle's poor quality and is contemplating it as the next vehicle.
LOL, Not to let this go off topic, I'll keep this response as simple as possible. Let me clarify. People have different needs at different stages of life, mine is no different. I had a Santro when I was a bachelor and it fit my needs. A family and kid meant a bigger car to carry stuff and people. Now, needs are changing again slowly since we need a bigger car for travelling with other family members, so the need for a bigger car. My budgets are limited and always buy second hand cars. I am most willing to go with a manufacturer given their issues IF they are willing to resolve the technical issues in a timely and competent manner. There was a time I never considered Mahindra, but since their response to XUV issues, I had begun considering it as my next move given my needs. Innova is a strong contender, but its beyond my purchase ability.

Last edited by sudeepg : 16th June 2014 at 10:46. Reason: Correction in post
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Old 16th June 2014, 11:44   #111
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Default Re: XUV500 diagnosed with broken spot welds. Re-weld or replace the frame?

Hello kk21,

Are you 100% sure that the 'tak-tak' noise is caused by a broken spot weld? Is the dealer sure that this is the cause or are they just assuming it to be the problem? I am not a BIW Engineer but there is a simple solution to this issue. These kind of noises are normally caused because of movement/rubbing of the sheet metal panels at the upper end of the A pillar. As this is an area where multiple sheet layers are used to strengthen the frame and an area of high flex, it is normal for the sheet panels to make contact if there is insufficient sealer between them.

Simple solution would be to:
1. Drive the vehicle without the A pillar and headliner trim and locate the source of the noise along the A pillar.
2. Use a small flat screw driver to seperate the panels that are making contact. It is often a single point so you may have to try seperating the panels at various locations along the A pillar until you hit the right spot. (If the noise is from the left A pillar, it would be ideal to do this while the vehicle is being driven on a road that replicates the noise)
3. Apply some paint over the areas where you have made the separation as the screw driver could have chipped the existing paint out.

I am aware that this may sound like a 'jugaad' method but it is a quick fix. Also there is no impact to structural strength or value of the vehicle by fixing it this way.
Please try this method along with your ASS before going in for something major.

I am not familiar with Mahindra chassis but as the XUV is a monocoque, i would assume its contruction would be similar to other monocoques.

All the best

Last edited by Lakshman1645 : 16th June 2014 at 11:45. Reason: Spelling mistake
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Old 16th June 2014, 11:57   #112
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Default Re: XUV500 diagnosed with broken spot welds. Re-weld or replace the frame?

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Originally Posted by Lakshman1645 View Post

Simple solution would be to:
1. Drive the vehicle without the A pillar and headliner trim and locate the source of the noise along the A pillar.
Hope, you were trying to explain something in a different context, but drive a vehicle without the A pillar to detect a noise?
The pillars are an integral part of the structure and its not something that can be bolted on-off!

Last edited by jeeva : 16th June 2014 at 11:58.
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Old 16th June 2014, 12:10   #113
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Default Re: XUV500 diagnosed with broken spot welds. Re-weld or replace the frame?

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Originally Posted by jeeva View Post
Hope, you were trying to explain something in a different context, but drive a vehicle without the A pillar to detect a noise?
The pillars are an integral part of the structure and its not something that can be bolted on-off!
Sorry i meant drive the vehicle without the A pillar trim and headliner trim.
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Old 16th June 2014, 12:11   #114
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Default Re: XUV500 diagnosed with broken spot welds. Re-weld or replace the frame?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lakshman1645 View Post
1. Drive the vehicle without the A pillar and headliner trim and locate the source of the noise along the A pillar.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeeva View Post
Hope, you were trying to explain something in a different context, but drive a vehicle without the A pillar to detect a noise?
The pillars are an integral part of the structure and its not something that can be bolted on-off!
He was asking kk21 to remove the *trim* not the pillar itself.
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Old 16th June 2014, 14:23   #115
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Default Re: XUV500 diagnosed with broken spot welds. Re-weld or replace the frame?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lakshman1645 View Post
Hello kk21,

Are you 100% sure that the 'tak-tak' noise is caused by a broken spot weld? Is the dealer sure that this is the cause or are they just assuming it to be the problem?
Well, Mahindra engineers themselves have determined that the cause of the noise is the broken spot welds. See this opening thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by kk21 View Post
Hi Friends

This problem has been there pretty much since the beginning - apart from various other rattles/squeaks/creaks - most of which ASS were able to rectify at some point or the other - but this problem took more than a year and finally a visit by someone from Mahindra Pune to get diagnosed.
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Old 16th June 2014, 18:11   #116
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Default Re: XUV500 diagnosed with broken spot welds. Re-weld or replace the frame?

Well, I guess the OP should just accept one of the two solutions offered and close the matter for good. Why? you ask. Because its not my car and I am not going to drive it!!

Sarcasm apart, The OP clearly did not get what he paid for and Mahindra should replace the car to deserve his money.

Last edited by veyron_head : 16th June 2014 at 18:13.
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Old 16th June 2014, 19:11   #117
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Default Re: XUV500 diagnosed with broken spot welds. Re-weld or replace the frame?

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Originally Posted by kk21 View Post
the problem has finally been diagnosed as broken spot welds on the LHS A Pillar.
Hi kk21, quick question - have you seen the broken spot welds?

If yes - can you share some pictures of the same? If not - could you ask the service centre to share the pictures of the same? Guess - this will give idea to everyone & help with solutions?
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Old 16th June 2014, 19:58   #118
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Default Re: XUV500 diagnosed with broken spot welds. Re-weld or replace the frame?

As we are discussing on topic related to spot welding strength, I would like to add few points here. Welding quality control has some limitations in automobile manufacturing field. Most of the quality control are destructive testing, that means the operator can not check quality of the welding process on every piece. So normally this test is done in predefined intervals. That also not on actual bodies but on some specimens made from similar material. So there is always a chance for a defect to come in between two tests. The higher end manufacturers (Ferrari/Lamborghini and those similar league) may be using radiography to asses the quality, but again it's not feasible in mass production set ups.

The other option available is to record the current flow during the spot welding. It will generate a report like a cardiogram and look for any abnormal current fluctuations. But there will be hundreds of spots on a body and it will not be practical to generate report of every spot welding on all bodies. Probably companies may be generating reports for critical welding joints.

So the practical approach is only visual inspection (spot counts, appearance etc)

Now coming to this specific case. The reasons for the spot welding could be gap between the panels, accumulation of some foreign materials at the joint and improper current flow due to welding electrodes are not in proper shape. The capital investments for spot welding equipment are very high and a variety of spot welding equipment are required for welding complete body. So normally MIG Welding (Metal Inert Gas Welding) is being used for after market repairing process. This process is quiet easy and quality of the process is also at par with spot welding.

In our fellow members case, a particular spot might have came out. The dealership guys could not find out the problem in the beginning. So the problem might have spread to nearer areas due to normal vibrations generated while running.

Anyways I will our fellow member will get a satisfactory solution from the company.
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Old 16th June 2014, 20:39   #119
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Default Re: XUV500 diagnosed with broken spot welds. Re-weld or replace the frame?

Quote:
Originally Posted by maheshramaling View Post
Hi kk21, quick question - have you seen the broken spot welds?

If yes - can you share some pictures of the same? If not - could you ask the service centre to share the pictures of the same? Guess - this will give idea to everyone & help with solutions?
That would really be very helpful. Now, seeing how monocoques are manufactured, layers of metal are put together on top of one another and spot welded. Now as long as they dont seperate, they welds can be done after wards and theyll be in perfect alignment. No issues. And spot welding isnt some rocket science. If its only one or a couple of welds, please have it done under supervision. As for replacement, its asking too much. In a minor accident, panels go through much larger stresses than we are talking here, and we all drive cars after they had a minor accident, a fender bender. Dont we?

As for mahindra asking to replace the shell, it baffles me.
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Old 17th June 2014, 10:30   #120
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Default Re: XUV500 diagnosed with broken spot welds. Re-weld or replace the frame?

KK21, no updates from 12th June. Please let us know if the discussion with top-bosses has resulted into something concrete yet.
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