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Old 16th June 2014, 20:14   #1
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Default Body Repair: How to remove & reinstall Rivets?

Hello,

My 4.5 years old Laura TSi received a dent on the front left door and the running board. I have been exploring competent and reasonable workshops in Pune to get this repaired. Don't want to claim insurance and don't want to take it to the Skoda service center for obvious reasons.

One workshop looked reasonable and gave me an estimate of 7K. They told me they will remove the door trim, try to put their hands in and hammer out the dent. I was told this is the standard way, so I agreed. But I told them that I will stand there all day and watch them doing it. They agreed. They removed the door trim and then this is how it looked:

Body Repair: How to remove & reinstall Rivets?-front_door3.jpg

This is some intermediate metal sheet that's riveted. You can see the speaker is also riveted. They were going to cut the rivets using a chisel and a hammer when I stopped them.

Then a debate followed:
They: Aisa hi hota hai sir, "ribit" ko hathoda mar kar katna padta hai (this is how it's done, sir, rivets have to be cut by force)
Me: Why? There must be some way, and how will you fit it all back?
They: Sir, baad mein "ribit" nahin baithega, screw marna padega (Sir, rivets can't be installed, we will screw it all)
Me: kuch to hota hoga (there must be some way) - while googling away to glory on my cell phone
They: sir, factory mein machine hota hai (Sir, factory has a rivet gun or something like that)

I got frustrated, asked them to search for some guy/workshop who can remove and install rivets with proper tools and then call me. I put the door trim in the boot and drove out.

Some questions:
1. What is the right way to remove and install a rivet?
2. Rivets versus screws versus nut/bolts: what's better? Is there any real advantage of using rivets over screws? Is it worth sticking to rivets?
3. All those who upgrade their speakers in India: how do they remove the existing speakers? Chisel out the rivets damaging the door trim/plastic housing in the process? And how do they install new speakers? Rivets or no?
4. Any good competent workshop in Pune who can deal with rivets? And of course do a good job of repairing the dented Skoda door?

I found this while googling (via briskoda):
http://workshop-manuals.com/skoda/oc...embly_carrier/

It says:
- Drive out rivet stems -arrows- with extractor ( 3 mm).
- Bore out rivet heads (drill 10 mm)."


So looks like there is some way other than chisel and hammer!
Who can do this in Pune?

Thank you!

Last edited by anandpadhye : 16th June 2014 at 20:26.
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Old 16th June 2014, 22:41   #2
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Default Re: Repairing the dent on front door - Skoda Laura (Octavia 2) - Rivets : why and how

Quote:
Originally Posted by anandpadhye View Post
Some questions:
1. What is the right way to remove and install a rivet?
2. Rivets versus screws versus nut/bolts: what's better? Is there any real advantage of using rivets over screws? Is it worth sticking to rivets?

Hammering out the dent is one way, but there are other options that would not require removing this panel.

Have a look at this thread for example : http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/mumbai...li-mumbai.html
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Old 17th June 2014, 07:53   #3
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Default Re: Repairing the dent on front door - Skoda Laura (Octavia 2) - Rivets : why and how

http://www.wikihow.com/Remove-Rivets

Hope this helps.
Best and easiest way is to drill it out using a drill whose dia is approximately the size inner pin dia. Please ensure the following:

1).If the drill dia is too big it will drill out the original sheet metal.
2).After the drilling finishes, the drill machine does not travel too much horizontally inside as it can damage any component on the other side.
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Old 17th June 2014, 08:33   #4
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Default Re: Repairing the dent on front door - Skoda Laura (Octavia 2) - Rivets : why and how

Quote:
1. What is the right way to remove and install a rivet?
To remove a rivet, you need to drill a crew through the center post, thats the only way you can remove a rivet cleanly

Quote:
2. Rivets versus screws versus nut/bolts: what's better? Is there any real advantage of using rivets over screws? Is it worth sticking to rivets?
No,no real advantage ofusuing rivets over screws. I suggest using nuts and bolts over self taping screws

Quote:
3. All those who upgrade their speakers in India: how do they remove the existing speakers? Chisel out the rivets damaging the door trim/plastic housing in the process? And how do they install new speakers? Rivets or no?
When I installed speakers in my friends car,it too had an entire panel which was riveted. We drilled out the rivets, Traced out the template onto an MDF board, then cut it out, then used a flush trim bit and a router to make it of the exact size. Following that, a speaker adapter was fit onto the template we cut out. This entire board was fit using nuts and bolts, not screws.

Last edited by GTO : 17th June 2014 at 12:25. Reason: Adding quotes :)
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Old 17th June 2014, 18:16   #5
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Default Re: Body Repair: How to remove & reinstall Rivets?

Quote:
Originally Posted by anandpadhye View Post
They were going to cut the rivets using a chisel and a hammer when I stopped them.
This is the brute-force approach that is better avoided.

They just need to use the right tool for the job -- which in this case is a drill with a correctly sized bit to match the OD of the rivet, or slightly bigger.

Assuming you're approaching this from the left side (in the image), once you drill till the green line i've marked, the cap of the rivet (on the left) will come free and the rest of it will fall out the other end (on the right):

Name:  pop_rivet.jpg
Views: 18849
Size:  110.8 KB
source

(Just noticed - the aluminum thing inset in the picture above is an unused pop-rivet, though its oriented opposite to the diagram).

Quote:
Originally Posted by anandpadhye View Post
2. Rivets versus screws versus nut/bolts: what's better? Is there any real advantage of using rivets over screws?
Pop-rivets (and nuts+bolts) have the advantage of not needing thickness in the material they fasten themselves to. Rivets are faster/simpler when access to the other side of the material is not possible - since they can be applied from one side. Screws require some thickness in the material so their threads can work well.

To explain it simply: you can pop-rivet two sheets of paper together, but you cannot screw them together.


Quote:
Originally Posted by anandpadhye View Post
Is it worth sticking to rivets?
It shouldn't be that difficult to find a workshop with a pop-rivet tool to re-assemble this.

cya
R

Last edited by Rehaan : 17th June 2014 at 18:20.
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Old 18th June 2014, 13:42   #6
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Default Re: Body Repair: How to remove & reinstall Rivets?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NetfreakBombay View Post
Hammering out the dent is one way, but there are other options that would not require removing this panel.

Have a look at this thread for example : http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/mumbai...li-mumbai.html
While reviewing this, some thoughts/questions:
1. Will spot heating the metal will reduce it's strength? Just look at those bubbles on Zen Estillo's panels. Looks like the steel is molten! Won't that make the panel fragile?
2. Estillo's sheet metal is very thin. Laura's panels are quite thick. Will that matter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by norhog View Post
http://www.wikihow.com/Remove-Rivets

Hope this helps.
Best and easiest way is to drill it out using a drill whose dia is approximately the size inner pin dia. Please ensure the following:

1).If the drill dia is too big it will drill out the original sheet metal.
2).After the drilling finishes, the drill machine does not travel too much horizontally inside as it can damage any component on the other side.
Yes, saw this one. So chisel is not the preferred way, for sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HimuraKenshin View Post

No,no real advantage ofusuing rivets over screws. I suggest using nuts and bolts over self taping screws


When I installed speakers in my friends car,it too had an entire panel which was riveted. We drilled out the rivets, Traced out the template onto an MDF board, then cut it out, then used a flush trim bit and a router to make it of the exact size. Following that, a speaker adapter was fit onto the template we cut out. This entire board was fit using nuts and bolts, not screws.
OK, thanks. On some forums, this seems to be a non-conclusive debate. Someone also mentioned that they use rivets simply to save time on the assembly line, however others think there are some real advantages (like Rehaan mentioned below).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rehaan View Post
This is the brute-force approach that is better avoided.


Pop-rivets (and nuts+bolts) have the advantage of not needing thickness in the material they fasten themselves to. Rivets are faster/simpler when access to the other side of the material is not possible - since they can be applied from one side. Screws require some thickness in the material so their threads can work well.

To explain it simply: you can pop-rivet two sheets of paper together, but you cannot screw them together.


cya
R
Thanks Rehaan. This is interesting - thickness of the material and access to the other side. The workshop guy also said something interesting - rivets are like stapler pins.

So I will visit a couple of workshops and see how they do this thing and then choose where to get this done.

Thanks all.
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Old 18th June 2014, 15:05   #7
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Default Re: Body Repair: How to remove & reinstall Rivets?

Quote:
Originally Posted by anandpadhye View Post
Hello

4. Any good competent workshop in Pune who can deal with rivets? And of course do a good job of repairing the dented Skoda door?

Who can do this in Pune?
Dear Mr Anand,
You can contact fellow bhpian (wickedwheels)James Savio Borges who has garage in Ravet and do body work as well. He has riveting machine and did riveting on quite a few vehicles.
James - 9890727069

Regards,
Shubhendra Singh
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Old 18th June 2014, 15:29   #8
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Default Re: Body Repair: How to remove & reinstall Rivets?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rehaan View Post
This is the brute-force approach that is better avoided.

They just need to use the right tool for the job -- which in this case is a drill with a correctly sized bit to match the OD of the rivet, or slightly bigger.

Assuming you're approaching this from the left side (in the image), once you drill till the green line i've marked, the cap of the rivet (on the left) will come free and the rest of it will fall out the other end (on the right):

(Just noticed - the aluminum thing inset in the picture above is an unused pop-rivet, though its oriented opposite to the diagram).

Pop-rivets (and nuts+bolts) have the advantage of not needing thickness in the material they fasten themselves to. Rivets are faster/simpler when access to the other side of the material is not possible - since they can be applied from one side. Screws require some thickness in the material so their threads can work well.

To explain it simply: you can pop-rivet two sheets of paper together, but you cannot screw them together.

It shouldn't be that difficult to find a workshop with a pop-rivet tool to re-assemble this.
Excellent explanation. One small thing to add, is that when using rivets you don't need to worry about threading the holes either.
It's a very easy technique, don't know about India, but in any toolshop in Europe you can buy a poprivet tool for just a few Euro's.

On cars, espcially you might also find plastic rivets. Essentially the very same principle, the rivets even look the same, with a similar tool to place them. Often used on upholsterday and bits of pieces on the dash, panels etc.

Jeroen
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Old 19th June 2014, 11:17   #9
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Default Re: Body Repair: How to remove & reinstall Rivets?

Quote:
Originally Posted by anandpadhye View Post
... they use rivets simply to save time on the assembly line, however others think there are some real advantages (like Rehaan mentioned below).
Note that speed is also a very 'real' advantage on an assembly line!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
It's a very easy technique, don't know about India, but in any toolshop in Europe you can buy a poprivet tool for just a few Euro's.
I was gifted one of these, but not sure where it was purchased from - though I'm sure they are available here too.
Name:  poprivetgun.jpg
Views: 18032
Size:  21.6 KB

@anandpadhye - naturally the industrial versions will be different, in order to auto-load and not require manual force to operate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
On cars, espcially you might also find plastic rivets. Essentially the very same principle, the rivets even look the same, with a similar tool to place them. Often used on upholsterday and bits of pieces on the dash, panels etc.
Some of the bigger ones even have the advantage of being re-usable. If you push in the center portion, the 'rivet' detaches itself. The center portion then pops out again for re-attachment.

Something like this:
Body Repair: How to remove & reinstall Rivets?-pushfitplasticrivet8mmhole21mmcollarblack111p.jpg
source

cya
R

Last edited by Rehaan : 19th June 2014 at 11:21.
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Old 19th June 2014, 11:27   #10
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Default Re: Body Repair: How to remove & reinstall Rivets?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rehaan View Post
I was gifted one of these, but not sure where it was purchased from - though I'm sure they are available here too.

Some of the bigger ones even have the advantage of being re-usable. If you push in the center portion, the 'rivet' detaches itself. The center portion then pops out again for re-attachment.

R
Great picture of the tool, I've got one just like that.

Great picture of the plastic "rivets". I have them everywhere in several of my cars. They tend to be a lot bigger than the metal/aluminiu, rivets. They're often used to hold upholstery/panels in place in cars.

Jeroen
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Old 19th June 2014, 14:01   #11
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Default Re: Body Repair: How to remove & reinstall Rivets?

Quote:
Originally Posted by anandpadhye View Post

My 4.5 years old Laura TSi received a dent on the front left door and the running board.
Dear Anand, I happened to come across a Laura which was being repaired for a dent on the front right door and it's lower part. The technician told it is really tough to remove the rivets but there is always a way out. Here are some pics that may help you.

Body Repair: How to remove & reinstall Rivets?-photo1383.jpg

Body Repair: How to remove & reinstall Rivets?-photo1385.jpg

Body Repair: How to remove & reinstall Rivets?-photo1386.jpg

Body Repair: How to remove & reinstall Rivets?-photo1384.jpg

Thanks
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Old 20th June 2014, 11:11   #12
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Default Re: Body Repair: How to remove & reinstall Rivets?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shubhendra View Post
Dear Mr Anand,
You can contact fellow bhpian (wickedwheels)James Savio Borges who has garage in Ravet and do body work as well. He has riveting machine and did riveting on quite a few vehicles.
James - 9890727069

Regards,
Shubhendra Singh
Thank you for the contact. Will contact him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rehaan View Post
Note that speed is also a very 'real' advantage on an assembly line!
Yes, and local workshops seem to have all the time in the world :-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ad3952n View Post
Dear Anand, I happened to come across a Laura which was being repaired for a dent on the front right door and it's lower part. The technician told it is really tough to remove the rivets but there is always a way out. Here are some pics that may help you.
Wow. Thank you so much. This really helps. I am looking at my picture and yours and see that it's exactly the same (of course, it's the same car, but they have also opened the door trim and the internals also look the same). I see they did not even attempt to remove the rivets, instead they seem to have clipped off two of the plastic caps to gain access to the outer door metal and they inserted screw driver to hammer out the dent! Interesting. I guess the effectiveness will depend on the position and size of the dent. In my case, the guy was sure that he needs to remove the speaker to gain access. But now I will take a closer look at those black plastic caps. Thanks again.

Last edited by anandpadhye : 20th June 2014 at 11:29.
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Old 21st June 2014, 13:31   #13
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Default Paintless Dent Removal

I continued to look for workshops and bumped into a "Paintless Dent Removal" option (posted by a lot of owners on other forums as well as on team-bhp). And this is right here in Pune (Mr. Sudhir Gaikwad). I called him and he asked me to send pictures of the dent on whats app! I did that and he got back saying:
- will remove the black marks using a cream and brush
- will be able to remove 90% of the dent on the door
- won't be able to repair the dent on the running board
- work will be done at my place (he always work on customer's premises)
- estimate: Rs. 1500

I liked the candid and prompt feedback and decided to give this a try before doing anything drastic. We decided to meet today at 8AM and he was at my place at 7:40AM ! We took the power supply from my house (1st floor) and he started the work.

This is how it went:

The overall dent:
Body Repair: How to remove & reinstall Rivets?-img20140619wa0002.jpg

A closer look at the dent:
Body Repair: How to remove & reinstall Rivets?-cam00090.jpg

Removing the black marks using some cream:
Body Repair: How to remove & reinstall Rivets?-cam00092.jpg

Body Repair: How to remove & reinstall Rivets?-cam00094.jpg

Starting to pull the dent:
Body Repair: How to remove & reinstall Rivets?-cam00099.jpg

The result:
Body Repair: How to remove & reinstall Rivets?-cam00105.jpg

Body Repair: How to remove & reinstall Rivets?-cam00108.jpg


He requested me not to take pictures when he actually pulled the dents out as that's his USP, so I agreed.

Overall, he could remove 80% of the dent, the side strip posed a challenge, some areas around it could not be restored fully. Also, as per him, when the door received the hit, the metal hit some parts inside (like the glass winder) and hence a couple of small spots around the side-strip got dented from inside. He used a plastic hammer to even them out, but said that only spot welding will restore them fully. Final result is quite acceptable, original paint is intact, and it's no more an eyesore when you look at the car casually. A closer look surely reveals the uneven surface at places. But I can definitely live with this and take my own time to study this whole dent-painting ecosystem, find a competent and reasonable garage that believes in minimizing wastage, has the right tools and most importantly, calls rivets "rivets" and not "ribbits"

Cheers!

Last edited by anandpadhye : 21st June 2014 at 13:36.
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Old 21st June 2014, 14:28   #14
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Default Re: Paintless Dent Removal

Quote:
Originally Posted by anandpadhye View Post
Final result is quite acceptable, original paint is intact, and it's no more an eyesore when you look at the car casually. A closer look surely reveals the uneven surface at places. But I can definitely live with this
Great that it worked for you. For removing this unevenness, you can take it to a paint shop that will: fill putty , make surface even and then apply a layer of paint.

This would cost approx 1.5 - 3k depending on brand / grade of paint used.
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Old 21st June 2014, 14:32   #15
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Default Re: Paintless Dent Removal

Quote:
Originally Posted by NetfreakBombay View Post
Great that it worked for you. For removing this unevenness, you can take it to a paint shop that will: fill putty , make surface even and then apply a layer of paint.

This would cost approx 1.5 - 3k depending on brand / grade of paint used.
But directly filling in putty without removing the unevenness will be similar to that of pothole-filling right?

The unevenness will be there inside the layer of putty and paint, or are you talking about first making the surface even from inside(this again comes down to removing the rivets) and then doing the putty and painting?

-Bhargav
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