Go Back   Team-BHP > Under the Hood > Technical Stuff


Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 11th August 2014, 15:32   #1
Senior - BHPian
 
amit_mechengg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Pune
Posts: 2,406
Thanked: 1,538 Times
Default In-Gear Acceleration (3rd & 4th) of common hatchbacks and sedans

Quote:
Originally Posted by hothatchaway View Post
^^^The SA drove the car himself right after I did and so did a couple of other folks at the dealership and the SA confirmed to me there was a problem with the TD car. I do not believe the car could be that bad to drive. I wonder what the issue could be, maybe an enlightened soul can chip in

As for the 75HP, I didnt find the drive to be bad at all, unless of course you are looking at outright sprints. Didnt know that the 75 hp turbo spools earlier, hope the 90HP makes up for that with a stronger midrange, now only if I could have that TD!
Well you can again take a test drive of the 90 hp. I bet you will be impressed. The 1st and 2nd gear seems dud. The tact is dont stretch beyong 2000 rpms in 1st and 2nd gear and slot to the 3rs as soon as possible.

The 90hp motor has a bigger turbo and provides good mid and high end performance. 3rd gear onwards it has very good in gear acceleration. See the below charts of Linea. Punto will score a bit better being lighter.

The punto and linea are far better when they are on the move. If you observe not daily we drive for drag. So just bragging about 0-100 and neglecting all other good factors isnt too justified.
Also 90 % of the time we are on the move in 2nd/ 3rd gear onwards. This is where there is no issue with punto.

See the below charts for in-gear acceleration.
Attached Images
  
amit_mechengg is offline   (14) Thanks
Old 11th August 2014, 20:37   #2
BHPian
 
nim_peter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Pune
Posts: 184
Thanked: 98 Times
Default Re: 2014 Fiat Punto Evo : A Close Look

^^ Finally someone put the stats to show the strong zone of FIAT cars People exaggerate a lot here on the turbo lag and low end performance. Till last week I've never driven a Punto 90hp and I actually believed that it was a dud. But it did take me by surprise how quick it was. Maybe it's my driving style, I normally shift at high revvs and it seem to work with Punto 90. Within no time I was hitting triple digit speeds, never felt it was slow. I think aggresive drivers will easily find a way around the turbo lag with the timing of the gear shift and the choice of gears. I may be wrong as I've driven very few Diesel cars. But coming from a GTX owner, Punto 90hp is not bad.
nim_peter is offline  
Old 11th August 2014, 21:38   #3
Team-BHP Support
 
Vid6639's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 14,464
Thanked: 19,350 Times
Default Re: 2014 Fiat Punto Evo : A Close Look

Quote:
Originally Posted by amit_mechengg View Post
See the below charts for in-gear acceleration.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nim_peter View Post
^^ Finally someone put the stats to show the strong zone of FIAT cars People exaggerate a lot here on the turbo lag and low end performance.
Sorry to be a party pooper and raid on your parade, but you guys do know that from the entire list posted, there are only 2 cars still in production and those are the Fiat Linea and the Ford Fiesta Classic.

There is no VW Vento, Honda City i-DTEC, New Fiesta, New Verna, Nissan Sunny, New Polo 1.5 TDI or the Swift, Dzire, Ertiga etc etc....

Quote:
Originally Posted by DRIV3R View Post
There shouldn't be any problem as such in a brand new car otherwise, unless the car was smoking a lot under acceleration.
Why is it so hard to accept that that the car had a problem and a car which does not have a problem performs much better.

The car having a problem has been confirmed by the Sales advisor as well as employees of the Fiat dealership after several test drives.

And here we have people trying to justify why the car was not performing well and giving solutions as to how to drive the car.

In reality the car is not so bad to drive as hothatchaway experienced. The turbo lag is acceptable and not dead as he faced. Fiat dealership guy has confirmed car had issue.

If you guys are still trying to say that the car is supposed to be really bad to drive and only a true experienced driver can get it to move I'm sorry but that's ridiculous.

Let's stop discussion on this incident and move on!

Last edited by Vid6639 : 11th August 2014 at 21:52.
Vid6639 is offline   (22) Thanks
Old 11th August 2014, 22:34   #4
BHPian
 
nim_peter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Pune
Posts: 184
Thanked: 98 Times
Default Re: 2014 Fiat Punto Evo : A Close Look

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vid6639 View Post
Sorry to be a party pooper and raid on your parade, but you guys do know that from the entire list posted, there are only 2 cars still in production and those are the Fiat Linea and the Ford Fiesta Classic.

There is no VW Vento, Honda City i-DTEC, New Fiesta, New Verna, Nissan Sunny, New Polo 1.5 TDI or the Swift, Dzire, Ertiga etc etc....
Hi Vid, I agree. There are some big names in the list, but nobody complained. I'm not disagreeing on the performance, it is slow, but not to the extent people are mentioning here. Like I mentioned before, just going thru the posts here I too was under the impression it is terribly slow, till I drove one last week. It is not fast, I won't call it slow either.
nim_peter is offline  
Old 11th August 2014, 22:53   #5
Team-BHP Support
 
Vid6639's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 14,464
Thanked: 19,350 Times
Default Re: 2014 Fiat Punto Evo : A Close Look

Quote:
Originally Posted by nim_peter View Post
it is slow, but not to the extent people are mentioning here. Like I mentioned before, just going thru the posts here I too was under the impression it is terribly slow, till I drove one last week. It is not fast, I won't call it slow either.
But who said it was slow? The poor chap who got a faulty car that probably had a loose turbo hose during transit or incorrect PDI.

The issue was confirmed by Fiat showroom employees and was an issue with that particular car ONLY. He then went and drove the 75HP and found it ok.

Then everyone here tried to stand up that the car did not have an issue but is actually that slow and needs some experienced driver to drive it correctly.
Vid6639 is offline   (1) Thanks
Old 12th August 2014, 08:40   #6
Senior - BHPian
 
amit_mechengg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Pune
Posts: 2,406
Thanked: 1,538 Times
Default Re: 2014 Fiat Punto Evo : A Close Look

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vid6639 View Post
Sorry to be a party pooper and raid on your parade, but you guys do know that from the entire list posted, there are only 2 cars still in production and those are the Fiat Linea and the Ford Fiesta Classic.

There is no VW Vento, Honda City i-DTEC, New Fiesta, New Verna, Nissan Sunny, New Polo 1.5 TDI or the Swift, Dzire, Ertiga etc etc....
Here you go sir.

City 20-80 = 13.30, 40-100=14.98
Vento 20-80=11.30, 40-100= 10.50
Verna 20-80= 13.00, 40-100= 15.10

Not a slow couch considering the puny 1.3mjd pulling 1290 kg of sheet metal
amit_mechengg is offline   (1) Thanks
Old 12th August 2014, 09:46   #7
Distinguished - BHPian
 
nkrishnap's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 3,489
Thanked: 4,093 Times
Default Re: 2014 Fiat Punto Evo : A Close Look

Quote:
Originally Posted by amit_mechengg View Post
Here you go sir.

City 20-80 = 13.30, 40-100=14.98
Vento 20-80=11.30, 40-100= 10.50
Verna 20-80= 13.00, 40-100= 15.10

Not a slow couch considering the puny 1.3mjd pulling 1290 kg of sheet metal
Now this makes for a fair comparison with the existing ones on sale. Collating the Linea along with these details and sorting it by least times.

30 - 80 in 3rd gear

Vento - 11.30 secs
Linea - 11.86 secs
Verna - 13.00 secs
City - 13.30 secs

40 - 100 in 4th gear

Vento - 10.50 secs
Linea - 13.64 secs
City - 14.98 secs
Verna - 15.10 secs

There is no disputing the fact that the Vento diesel is the performance king in the segment. The Verna has a lot more power on paper but the roll on figures suggest it is a lot slower. City being the lightest car with 100 PS is slower as the roll on figures suggest which is quite disappointing after the 100PS marketing.

As Amit rightly pointed out, the mid range of the MJD (90 HP) is quite good for the roll on acceleration which comes to aid on the day to day to driving. The Punto being lighter than the Linea should only improve these numbers unless something is grossly wrong.

Time to figure out the roll on numbers for the hatchbacks to make the discussion more meaningful.
nkrishnap is online now   (5) Thanks
Old 12th August 2014, 10:21   #8
Senior - BHPian
 
Vik0728's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 1,738
Thanked: 2,150 Times
Default Re: 2014 Fiat Punto Evo : A Close Look

This probably is not the latest or the most accurate list folks, but I have researched a lot and come up with this list.

I have marked the ones with complete info in 'Bold'. Request the others to pitch in if I have missed out on any or have posted some wrong figures.

Polo GT TDI 0-100: 10.5
20-80(3rd): 8.3
40-100(4th): 9

Polo GT TSI 0-100: 10.8
20-80(3rd): 7.5
40-100(4th): 8.5


Polo 1.5 TDI:0-100: 13.6

20-80(3rd):
40-100(4th):

Swift 75hp 0-100: 13.87secs.
20-80(3rd):11.96
40-100(4th):14.72

Punto EVO 75hp 0-100: 15.84
20-80(3rd):12.57
40-100(4th):15.22

Punto EVO 90hp 0-100: 14.33
20-80(3rd):13.97
40-100(4th):14.72

Ritz D 0-100: 14.3
20-80(3rd): 12.52
40-100(4th): 15.36

Figo D 0-100: 16.2
20-80(3rd): 13.45
40-100(4th): 16.36


i20 D 0-100: 13
20-80(3rd): 15.51
40-100(4th): 19.01

Vento D 0-100: 11.30
20-80(3rd): 9.24
40-100(4th): 10.5

Rapid D 0-100: 11.44
20-80(3rd): 9.0
40-100(4th): 9.8

Linea Tjet 0-100: 11.05
20-80(3rd): 11.94
40-100(4th): 15.52

Linea MJD 0-100:
20-80(3rd): 11.86
40-100(4th): 13.64

Fiesta 1.5 D 0-100: 13.9

20-80(3rd):
40-100(4th):

Verna 1.6 D 0-100: 10.68
20-80(3rd): 13
40-100(4th): 15.1

City 1.5 D: 0-100: 12.5

20-80(3rd):
40-100(4th):
Vik0728 is online now   (12) Thanks
Old 12th August 2014, 11:20   #9
Senior - BHPian
 
adimicra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Hyderabad
Posts: 1,558
Thanked: 1,058 Times
Default Re: 2014 Fiat Punto Evo : A Close Look

^
Anyone who has driven the Swift and Punto (even the 90BHP 'Sports' model) will agree the Swift feels faster. May be it's because of the first 2 gears which are way too sluggish in the Punto. Plus, the Punto gearbox is pretty bad and rubbery and spoils the driving experience to some extent (not sure about the Evo, though there is no mention about any improvement in the gearbox)

About the figures posted above, I would take it with a pinch of salt as it has lot to do with the gearing. I remember, cars like Hyundai Santro have better or comparable figures to the Honda City? Does that mean Santro is as powerful/fast than the City?The reason is simple- shorter gearing. Cars with lower power typically tend to boost performance by shorter gearing.

Another thing to remember - these tests are typically done with only the driver in place. As you fully load the car with 5 people and luggage, the lack of power will become more evident.
adimicra is offline  
Old 12th August 2014, 11:57   #10
Distinguished - BHPian
 
nkrishnap's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 3,489
Thanked: 4,093 Times
Default Re: 2014 Fiat Punto Evo : A Close Look

Quote:
Originally Posted by adimicra View Post
^
Anyone who has driven the Swift and Punto (even the 90BHP 'Sports' model) will agree the Swift feels faster. May be it's because of the first 2 gears which are way too sluggish in the Punto. Plus, the Punto gearbox is pretty bad and rubbery and spoils the driving experience to some extent (not sure about the Evo, though there is no mention about any improvement in the gearbox)
There is no change in the gearbox as such, but the gear cables are upgraded for better shifting (though has not made much difference to the overall feel).

Quote:
About the figures posted above, I would take it with a pinch of salt as it has lot to do with the gearing. I remember, cars like Hyundai Santro have better or comparable figures to the Honda City? Does that mean Santro is as powerful/fast than the City?The reason is simple- shorter gearing. Cars with lower power typically tend to boost performance by shorter gearing.
Wouldn't the gearing matter to aid driveability? Shorter gearing means quicker accelration in each gear, but lose out on the max speed in each gear, but the roll on figures and the driveability will be good. The manufacturers try and balance the ratios out for driveability. It is quite evident that the i20 and the city lose out on this count. In my opinion comparing Santro and city is not right, comparing Santro in its segment matters. Taller ratios take more time to build up speed in the higher gears. Not sure why this has to be taken with pinch of salt. It is test that most reviewers conduct to guage the driveability.

Quote:
Another thing to remember - these tests are typically done with only the driver in place. As you fully load the car with 5 people and luggage, the lack of power will become more evident.
Wouldn't it be applicable to the cars morepowerful with taller ratios too, taller the ratio and heavier the load, the more time it takes to gain speed in higer gears? For example the i20 or the city will be slower with 5 people + luggage than the lone person driving it.
nkrishnap is online now   (2) Thanks
Old 12th August 2014, 12:07   #11
Senior - BHPian
 
adimicra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Hyderabad
Posts: 1,558
Thanked: 1,058 Times
Default Re: 2014 Fiat Punto Evo : A Close Look

^
Without going into further arguments, let me tell why this figures don't prove conclusively about driveabillity.

How many people do 20-80 in 3rd gear or 40-100 in 4th gear?
It may very well be that Honda IDtec is faster from 20-50 in 3rd gear but loses out on 50-80. Isn't that possible?
All depends on the overall driving experience. People change gear based on their convenience and driving style and then forms an opinion about the car's performance.
And based on my experience and most people (excluding Fiat fans or owners), Swift drives way better than the Punto. And no number can change that opinion.
adimicra is offline   (1) Thanks
Old 12th August 2014, 12:26   #12
Senior - BHPian
 
Vik0728's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 1,738
Thanked: 2,150 Times
Default Re: 2014 Fiat Punto Evo : A Close Look

Quote:
Originally Posted by adimicra View Post

About the figures posted above, I would take it with a pinch of salt as it has lot to do with the gearing.

Another thing to remember - these tests are typically done with only the driver in place. As you fully load the car with 5 people and luggage, the lack of power will become more evident.
Common adimicra you're not serious are you bro ?

As far as I know, even a Bugatti Veyron 0-100, 0-200, etc figures are calculated only based on a single occupant(driver). Nobody puts up these acceleration figures with cars fully loaded like baggage & passengers.

Regarding the gearing, the Evo & Linea seem to be right up there in the In-gear acceleration.

If you observe closely, the Linea MJD is faster compared to T-jet in 'Roll On' speeds!!

So I really wonder what makes Evo 'Feel' slower than it really is.

Last edited by Vik0728 : 12th August 2014 at 12:27.
Vik0728 is online now   (2) Thanks
Old 12th August 2014, 12:51   #13
Distinguished - BHPian
 
nkrishnap's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 3,489
Thanked: 4,093 Times
Default Re: 2014 Fiat Punto Evo : A Close Look

Quote:
And based on my experience and most people (excluding Fiat fans or owners),
Firstly stop disregarding every post made by somebody who owns a Fiat. Your are only fueling further posts which will deviate from the topic of discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by adimicra View Post
^
Without going into further arguments, let me tell why this figures don't prove conclusively about driveabillity.

How many people do 20-80 in 3rd gear or 40-100 in 4th gear?
It may very well be that Honda IDtec is faster from 20-50 in 3rd gear but loses out on 50-80. Isn't that possible?
All depends on the overall driving experience. People change gear based on their convenience and driving style and then forms an opinion about the car's performance.
You are conveniently generalizing on how people drive. Not everybody drives the same.

Shouldn't it be the other way round that the car is very slow from 20-50 but quicker from 50-80 due to better turbo spooling and better acceleration as the revs rise. There is a reason why people curse the turbolag, because it affects driveability. As far as I am aware, the turbo lag is evident in lower rpms and not higher. So the assumption of 20-50 being faster and 50-80 being slower seems incorrect.

Quote:
And based on my experience and most people (excluding Fiat fans or owners), Swift drives way better than the Punto. And no number can change that opinion.
On the feel aspect, its very subjective. Though OT let me give you an example, you ride without a helmet, even 40 feels faster. With helmet and earplugs, the same 40 kmph feels slower. The relativity of feeling quick is dependent on so many factors such as noise insultion, build etc.

I am not denying the fact that the swift beats the Punto Evo (both 75 and 90 HP) in straight line acceleration or on an open highway. The driveability on the MJD is a bit better due to the ratios and the tune selected. But it loses out grossly in the outright acceleration. The roll on figures brings this fact out. From my experience of driving the Linea for 40K kms and my friend's swift for majority of the 48K kms, bring in the ghats or hilly sections with variantions in incline, the swift clearly struggles in the lower revs due to the taller 1st and 2nd gear. The turbo lag can get very annoying.
nkrishnap is online now   (3) Thanks
Old 12th August 2014, 13:26   #14
Team-BHP Support
 
Vid6639's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 14,464
Thanked: 19,350 Times
Default Re: 2014 Fiat Punto Evo : A Close Look

Quote:
Originally Posted by adimicra View Post
How many people do 20-80 in 3rd gear or 40-100 in 4th gear?
It may very well be that Honda IDtec is faster from 20-50 in 3rd gear but loses out on 50-80. Isn't that possible?
All depends on the overall driving experience. People change gear based on their convenience and driving style and then forms an opinion about the car's performance.
With that logic there is no proper way to gauge performance of a car. 0-100kmph is also debatable since nobody goes flat out redlining every gear.

Similarly you said nobody does 20-80 in one gear.

I would say 20-80kmph and 40-100kmph are the 2 most important ones in indian driving conditions. To overtake you usually downshift to 3 or 4 in highway. And in city 3rd is the most important gear.

Quote:
And based on my experience and most people (excluding Fiat fans or owners), Swift drives way better than the Punto. And no number can change that opinion.
Yeah but that's a combination of weight, gearing, engine.

It's like the Honda's. They have great performance but roll on and city driveability is hampered. 0-100kmph is where they excel. Not because of gearing but the engine is tuned to deliver at high rpm's. Below vtec band it feels average.

Roll on tests are also more consistent. Where 0-100 depends on driver skill, road grip and tyres, roll on is simply reach 20kmph and slam the gas. At that speed traction is not a problem and you will get consistent numbers.
Vid6639 is offline   (9) Thanks
Old 12th August 2014, 13:37   #15
BANNED
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: bangalore
Posts: 522
Thanked: 462 Times
Default Re: 2014 Fiat Punto Evo : A Close Look

Quote:
Originally Posted by adimicra View Post
And based on my experience and most people (excluding Fiat fans or owners), Swift drives way better than the Punto. And no number can change that opinion.
In fact, it is the reverse. Swift can do better than Punto in the number game, but if I were to pick between the two, I'd pick the Punto. There is more to motoring than winning the number game.
blacksport is online now   (2) Thanks
Closed Thread


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
List of hatchbacks & sedans with High ground clearance? rock18 Technical Stuff 58 22nd June 2015 20:20
FEATURES comparison of select Hatchbacks & Sedans in Rs 5-6 (P) & 6-7 (D) Lakh Range jessie007 The Indian Car Scene 27 25th December 2014 17:22
FEATURES comparison of select Hatchbacks & Sedans in Rs 6-7 (P) & 7-8 (D) lakhs range jessie007 The Indian Car Scene 10 24th April 2012 14:13
Cruise in 3rd gear, or keep shifting between 3rd & 4th? syravi Technical Stuff 11 29th September 2011 10:44


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 12:15.

Copyright 2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks