Go Back   Team-BHP > Under the Hood > Technical Stuff


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 18th September 2014, 09:48   #31
Newbie
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Chennai
Posts: 15
Thanked: Once
Default Re: Clutch Plate - Reverse install with dual-mass flywheel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
Not sure which argument holds if we agree that the friction material expanse it also moves the clutch plate during the initial phase?
If we assume that both the friction material expands by 0.2 mm. The pp side friction material will have 1.2 mm movement and the clutch assembly 0.35 mm.

While reverse fitment, it'll still have 0.85 mm movement.

And 0.2 mm as the thickness expansion for friction material is too high. It can't go beyond this.
rathsubhajeet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th September 2014, 10:32   #32
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Delhi
Posts: 3,056
Thanked: 6,158 Times
Default Re: Clutch Plate - Reverse install with dual-mass flywheel

Quote:
Originally Posted by rathsubhajeet View Post
If we assume that both the friction material expands by 0.2 mm. The pp side friction material will have 1.2 mm movement and the clutch assembly 0.35 mm.

While reverse fitment, it'll still have 0.85 mm movement.

And 0.2 mm as the thickness expansion for friction material is too high. It can't go beyond this.
You've completely lost me. I havent said anything on measurements whilst reverse fitting a cluthc plate

You said and I quote:

Quote:
The friction material is attached to the clutch plate in such a way that while disengagement of clutch, during cushion deflection phase, only the pressure plate side friction surface has axial movement and not the entire clutch plate. Only after that the clutch plate starts to move and the clutch disengages
And I responded that such a such a scenario is physically impossible; the pressure plate does move during the cushin deflection phase and subsequently the clutch plates moves as well. I showed the math on how to calculate it. And I gave the link to an article substantiating that.

That's all.

Not sure what your number mean as part of the above debate, which is about whether the clutch plate moves or not during the intital phase.

I'm not sure I can follow your number either. But, earlier on I made it clear that I dont think clutch plates can/should be reversed fitted even if they look symetrical from the outside.

Jeroen

Jeroen

Last edited by Jeroen : 18th September 2014 at 10:34.
Jeroen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th September 2014, 15:34   #33
Newbie
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Chennai
Posts: 15
Thanked: Once
Default Re: Clutch Plate - Reverse install with dual-mass flywheel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
You've completely lost me. I havent said anything on measurements whilst reverse fitting a cluthc plate

You said and I quote:



And I responded that such a such a scenario is physically impossible; the pressure plate does move during the cushin deflection phase and subsequently the clutch plates moves as well. I showed the math on how to calculate it. And I gave the link to an article substantiating that.

That's all.

Not sure what your number mean as part of the above debate, which is about whether the clutch plate moves or not during the intital phase.

I'm not sure I can follow your number either. But, earlier on I made it clear that I dont think clutch plates can/should be reversed fitted even if they look symetrical from the outside.

Jeroen

Jeroen
What you are saying is that theoretically the pressure plate shouldn't move. I'm saying practically it does, but a very small distance. Same is the case with the clutch plate. The numbers which I quote, are worst case scenarios, and even in that condition, the reverse fitment leads to an additional wear.

If you have any more confusion, kindly post.
rathsubhajeet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th September 2014, 15:51   #34
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Delhi
Posts: 3,056
Thanked: 6,158 Times
Default Re: Clutch Plate - Reverse install with dual-mass flywheel

Quote:
Originally Posted by rathsubhajeet View Post
What you are saying is that theoretically the pressure plate shouldn't move. I'm saying practically it does, but a very small distance. Same is the case with the clutch plate. The numbers which I quote, are worst case scenarios, and even in that condition, the reverse fitment leads to an additional wear.
If you have any more confusion, kindly post.
Where did you get that from??? I'm saying and I quote:
Quote:
[the pressure plate does move during the cushin deflection phase and subsequently the clutch plates moves as well
What part of the pressure plate MOVING did you not get?

Yes, so sorry I'm totally confused. I get the feeling you don't get (or agree) to anything I'm posting? But I'm a teacher at heart so the fault of you not getting it must be mine. So here we go one more time, but it is the last time as there is only a finite number of ways of explaining something and writing it down. And my meager knowledge of how to epxlain things, does not go beyond this last post:

I'm saying:
- The pressure plate actually moves and therefor
- the friction material expands flilling the space between flywheel, clutch plate and pressure plate during cushion deflection phase
- Subsequently, the clutch plate actually moves as well, where as you actually said it did not

I dont understand your numbers at all, because we have been talking about what happens during the cushion deflection phase (as per your post) and movement is much less than the numbers you are suggesting, no matter what they represent.

I've always said you should not reverse fit a clutch plate to start with. Apart from wear on the friction parts there is wear and tear on many other parts potentially as well. But, please lets not go that way because most likely you or me are going to be hugely confused.

I suggest you go back to the article I hyperlinked for you. It opens on the relevant page. Plug in your numbers, and do the math. It will also give you the exact numbers on how much everything moves.

Good luck and dont reverse those cluthc plate. (but we seem to be in complete allignement on that one)

Last edited by Jeroen : 18th September 2014 at 16:14.
Jeroen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th September 2014, 16:18   #35
Distinguished - BHPian
 
SS-Traveller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 6,617
Thanked: 10,768 Times
Default Re: Clutch Plate - Reverse install with dual-mass flywheel

Quote:
Originally Posted by rathsubhajeet View Post
No supplier would ask his customer to do something which has even a minute chance of failure.
...
With SMF, some kind of fitment issues are always there.
What kind of failure are we predicting here? Minute as in how much? 10%? 0.001%?
And what kind of fitment issues? Please specify.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
I must be posting in Sansscript...
... but you probably mean Sanskrit. A lot of us old-timers here do understand Sanskrit, in a limited fashion or even completely! So go ahead, comprehension shouldn't be a problem!
SS-Traveller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th September 2014, 18:28   #36
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Delhi
Posts: 3,056
Thanked: 6,158 Times
Default Clutch Plate - Reverse install with dual-mass flywheel

Quote:
Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
... but you probably mean Sanskrit. A lot of us old-timers here do understand Sanskrit, in a limited fashion or even completely! So go ahead, comprehension shouldn't be a problem!

Actually, I realized that a few minutes after I made that comment and changed it to what is says now, as I did not want to offend anybody (as if I'm known for offending). It's a bit of an expression in Dutch as it is so far removed, literally, from Dutch.

So maybe linguistically speaking, the comprehension shouldn't be a problem, but certainly on a technical level, comprehension appears to be lacking. (All my fault I'm sure.)

You think technically speaking we would get better comprehension in Sanskrit?

Jeroen

Last edited by Jeroen : 18th September 2014 at 18:32.
Jeroen is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 18th September 2014, 19:28   #37
Senior - BHPian
 
SPIKE ARRESTOR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Deutschland
Posts: 2,674
Thanked: 740 Times
Default Re: Clutch Plate - Reverse install with dual-mass flywheel

Quote:
Originally Posted by rathsubhajeet View Post
Being bluntly honest, I don't know much about clutch. But I've spoken to a few suppliers and a few people in my firm, who know more than me. The trouble is I'm not quiet convinced by there explanations.
If you want authentic info on clutches, there is only one guy at M&M - Vallabha Rao, I dont know if he still works there. The design / system engineer there would not be able to tell you anything more than the clutch dia, torque capacity, friction material, FOS etc. as the clutch is bought from suppliers.

Quote:
Also, it is difficult for me to quote specific examples, as most of the products i work on are Proto-products, and I'm suppose to maintain information security.
If you are in Nibandhe's group, getting a few pictures should not be a big deal . This particular DMF that you are talking about, is for which vehicle?

Spike
SPIKE ARRESTOR is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 18th September 2014, 21:09   #38
Newbie
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Chennai
Posts: 15
Thanked: Once
Default Re: Clutch Plate - Reverse install with dual-mass flywheel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
Where did you get that from??? I'm saying and I quote:
=====
Good luck and dont reverse those cluthc plate. (but we seem to be in complete allignement on that one)
I mis read one of your posts and I did get the impression that you were saying that pressure plate does not move. Both of us are actually saying the same thing.

The only thing we don't agree is that weather Clutch Plate has axial movement during cushion deflection. What I'm trying to convey is that the design of cushion spring is such that, during correct fitment, the travel is less and during reverse fitment the travel is more.

Now if less is too less, then reverse fitment could cause additional wear. And please remember all of my explanations are during cushion deflection only. Beyond that, the clutch plate has similar behavior. It is difficult for me to explain how that works on this thread due to obvious limitation.

You are correct that the numbers which i gave are much higher than what actually is. And I gave them just for the sake of explanation. I've mentioned that in my post as well.

And I agree to a lot of what you are saying. Its just that, I'm unable to explain my side of the story to you. Maybe I'm not that good a teacher at heart.

We can close by agreeing not to fit the clutch in the wrong direction. That I can live with.

PS: Send the e-book brother
rathsubhajeet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th September 2014, 21:12   #39
Distinguished - BHPian
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Kolkata
Posts: 3,504
Thanked: 2,060 Times
Default Re: Clutch Plate - Reverse install with dual-mass flywheel

Quote:
Originally Posted by joybhowmik View Post
Riveting looks fairly symmetric to me based on ^^^.
Quote:
Originally Posted by joybhowmik View Post
the comment on symmetric riveting from prior observation about asymmetric riveting.
Where exactly have I said anything about symmetric/ asymmetric riveting.
And does the picture you posted look symmetric to you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rathsubhajeet View Post
Being bluntly honest, I don't know much about clutch. But I've spoken to a few suppliers and a few people in my firm, who know more than me. The trouble is I'm not quiet convinced by there explanations.
...
Which is also the reason I'm not posting pictures. I'll still try to find pics online and give a better explanation.
Even if you can't post pictures, pls. do take apart a clutch plate. You'll get answers to your initial question in a jiffy.

Regards
Sutripta
Sutripta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th September 2014, 21:17   #40
Newbie
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Chennai
Posts: 15
Thanked: Once
Default Re: Clutch Plate - Reverse install with dual-mass flywheel

Quote:
Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
What kind of failure are we predicting here? Minute as in how much? 10%? 0.001%?
And what kind of fitment issues? Please specify.
Personally I don't think it will fail. It may have slow degradation leading to poorer engagement quality. How much, is a big question, and I'm not in a position to answer that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
If you want authentic info on clutches, there is only one guy at M&M - Vallabha Rao, I dont know if he still works there. The design / system engineer there would not be able to tell you anything more than the clutch dia, torque capacity, friction material, FOS etc. as the clutch is bought from suppliers.


If you are in Nibandhe's group, getting a few pictures should not be a big deal . This particular DMF that you are talking about, is for which vehicle?

Spike
Vallabha Rao got shifted to brakes recently. I've not had a chance to speak to him.

I'm not in Nibandhe Sir's team, but getting pictures are not a big deal for me. I just don't want to post them on a public forum.
rathsubhajeet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th September 2014, 21:21   #41
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Delhi
Posts: 3,056
Thanked: 6,158 Times
Default Re: Clutch Plate - Reverse install with dual-mass flywheel

Quote:
Originally Posted by rathsubhajeet View Post
The only thing we don't agree is that weather Clutch Plate has axial movement during cushion deflection.

We can close by agreeing not to fit the clutch in the wrong direction. That I can live with.

PS: Send the e-book brother
My reaction to you was on your statement that the clutch plate has no axial movement during cushion deflection. Nothing else.

I don't have the e-book, just try the link, it will eventually download completely and then you can go through it in great detail and your concussion will be that the clutch plate does move during cushion deflection and you will be able to calculate it's movement down to the last decimal.

If you still don't agree, you need to complain to whatever creator of the universe you believe in, because we are talking very basic physics here. If you don't like it, you better move to a different universe with different physical laws that suit your theory.

Glad to see you can live with agreeing not to fit clutch in the wrong direction. Very big of you.

Jeroen
Jeroen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th September 2014, 21:23   #42
Newbie
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Chennai
Posts: 15
Thanked: Once
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post

Even if you can't post pictures, pls. do take apart a clutch plate. You'll get answers to your initial question in a jiffy.

Regards
Sutripta
I hope you are talking about the ability of a clutch to take shock load in one direction.

Could you give me a starting point for what to look for. I'll check and revert back for queries.

Thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
My reaction to you was on your statement that the clutch plate has no axial movement during cushion deflection. Nothing else.

I don't have the e-book, just try the link, it will eventually download completely and then you can go through it in great detail and your concussion will be that the clutch plate does move during cushion deflection and you will be able to calculate it's movement down to the last decimal.

If you still don't agree, you need to complain to whatever creator of the universe you believe in, because we are talking very basic physics here. If you don't like it, you better move to a different universe with different physical laws that suit your theory.

Glad to see you can live with agreeing not to fit clutch in the wrong direction. Very big of you.

Jeroen
In my last post I said less not zero. But if pp travel is much higher than clutch plate, we can say its zero, which is what I meant in the first time I posted about this.

After that I've clarified that travel is there but its less.

Last edited by Eddy : 18th September 2014 at 23:09. Reason: Please use the EDIT or MULTI-QUOTE buttons instead of typing one post after another on the same thread.
rathsubhajeet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th September 2014, 22:24   #43
Senior - BHPian
 
SPIKE ARRESTOR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Deutschland
Posts: 2,674
Thanked: 740 Times
Default Re: Clutch Plate - Reverse install with dual-mass flywheel

Quote:
Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
This particular DMF that you are talking about, is for which vehicle?
You missed a part of my question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rathsubhajeet View Post
I just don't want to post them on a public forum.
Never mind, I have another solution. You can always make a hand sketch of the assemblies- a clutch assembly hand sketch should not be that difficult, me thinks.

Spike
SPIKE ARRESTOR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th September 2014, 20:19   #44
Newbie
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Chennai
Posts: 15
Thanked: Once
Default Re: Clutch Plate - Reverse install with dual-mass flywheel

Quote:
Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
You missed a part of my question.
Its a Mahindra Product. Now if you are smart enough, you'll guess correctly.
rathsubhajeet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th September 2014, 21:20   #45
Distinguished - BHPian
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Kolkata
Posts: 3,504
Thanked: 2,060 Times
Default Re: Clutch Plate - Reverse install with dual-mass flywheel

Quote:
Originally Posted by rathsubhajeet View Post
Could you give me a starting point for what to look for. I'll check and revert back for queries.
In your minds eye, lock the hub, and try turning the periphery/ lining. Work out how the force (torque) is transmitted to the hub. Now reverse the direction in which you are rotating the periphery.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR View Post
You missed a part of my question.
Hi Prateesh,
Good to see you participating after a long time.
How did the project go?
Where are you joining?

I'm surprised that MM is considering a DMF. As if they have solved all the existing NVH problems, and are now polishing their masterpiece(s).
Or is it that one of the engines has such strong torque pulsations (Quanto?) that a DMF is one of the options being looked at.

Regards
Sutripta
Sutripta is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Is flywheel replacement a must, when getting a new clutch plate? csateesh Technical Stuff 26 16th October 2017 06:18
Driving the Ford Fiesta dual-clutch Automatic on the Buddh International Circuit benbsb29 Test-Drives & Initial Ownership Reports 31 19th April 2012 16:17
Dual mass flywheel? bhardwaja2 Technical Stuff 6 18th July 2010 03:21
Honda Announces the New Dual Clutch in Large-displacement Sport Bikes Parm Superbikes & Imports 1 9th September 2009 18:16
does a reverse woofer install really help noidaboy In-Car Entertainment 34 24th May 2009 09:25


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 06:46.

Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks