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Old 12th September 2014, 23:27   #1
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Default Clutch Plate - Reverse install with dual-mass flywheel

The Clutch Plate is designed in such a way that the Flywheel and Pressure Plate Side can be easily identified. Certain Clutch also have Poka-Yoke to prevent wrong fitment. But, with most Dual Mass Flywheels, it is possible to fit the clutch in the reverse direction.

As a matter of fact, I've tried that on a vehicle and I couldn't find any performance related issues.

So my question is what would happen if the Clutch is fitted in the wrong direction? Will it affect the durability or engagement quality? And if there isn't any problem, why do Clutches have Poka-Yoke?
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Old 14th September 2014, 07:41   #2
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Default re: Clutch Plate - Reverse install with dual-mass flywheel

If the clutch design allows fitment either way then there is obviously no harm or performance degradation.
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Old 14th September 2014, 11:15   #3
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Default re: Clutch Plate - Reverse install with dual-mass flywheel

Quote:
Originally Posted by sudev View Post
If the clutch design allows fitment either way then there is obviously no harm or performance degradation.
Even in those clutches the Flywheel and the Pressure Plate can be identified. A symmetric design would be cost saving. I'm just curious why that is not done.

PS: One of the differences is the direction of heat vents on the friction material. If the clutch is fitted in the reverse direction, the heat dissipation would be less. But I'm not convinced if that is the reason.
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Old 14th September 2014, 22:42   #4
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Default Re: Clutch Plate - Reverse install with dual-mass flywheel

Design caters to a shock load in one direction only.

Regards
Sutripta
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Old 15th September 2014, 07:49   #5
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Default Re: Clutch Plate - Reverse install with dual-mass flywheel

Professori....please elaborate using the image. I really do not see any difference for direction in the design in this or similar ones. PROVIDED and GIVEN the fitments on both allow reversals.
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100% with you where design is not mirrored or faces are marked for directions and / or vent grooves are there.
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Old 15th September 2014, 08:08   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sudev View Post
Professori....please elaborate using the image. I really do not see any difference for direction in the design in this or similar ones. PROVIDED and GIVEN the fitments on both allow reversals.



100% with you where design is not mirrored or faces are marked for directions and / or vent grooves are there.

It all depends on how well those springs and their mountings can take a load in either direction. I have replaced a fair number of clutches over the year, but Im not sure if I ever have seen one that apparently could be fitted either way. The ones I've worked with always had a distinct fly wheel side. If you fitted them the wrong way, the clutch wouldn't work, lots of Did I fit my clutch backwards post on the forums.

Jeroen
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Old 15th September 2014, 09:04   #7
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Default Re: Clutch Plate - Reverse install with dual-mass flywheel

M800 - a long time ago...

Fitted the pressure plate back-to-front (was trying my hand as a newbie at it). Fitted fine. Clutch worked fine in terms of pedal movement and engagement, but gears wouldn't slot easily, especially first gear at standstill.

Realized that the clutch was not disengaging fully (though with clutch engaged, car ran fine).

The central bossed part of the friction plate was fouling with the pressure plate, preventing complete disengagement.
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Old 15th September 2014, 20:45   #8
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Default Re: Clutch Plate - Reverse install with dual-mass flywheel

Quote:
Originally Posted by sudev View Post
please elaborate using the image. I really do not see any difference for direction in the design in this or similar ones. PROVIDED and GIVEN the fitments on both allow reversals.
Sudevji,
The outer part of the clutch plate (carrying the lining) is not rigidly connected to the inner part (carrying the splined hub). If you take apart the clutch plate (you have to bust a lot of rivets) you will find it is not a symmetric design.

Having said that, if the op has come across a clutch plate which is visually identical front to back, and has no marking to distinguish flywheel end from GB end, I would be very interested in taking that apart.

Regards
Sutripta
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Old 15th September 2014, 21:50   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
Design caters to a shock load in one direction only.

Regards
Sutripta
Could you give a more technical description on this.

Thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
Sudevji,
The outer part of the clutch plate (carrying the lining) is not rigidly connected to the inner part (carrying the splined hub). If you take apart the clutch plate (you have to bust a lot of rivets) you will find it is not a symmetric design.

Having said that, if the op has come across a clutch plate which is visually identical front to back, and has no marking to distinguish flywheel end from GB end, I would be very interested in taking that apart.

Regards
Sutripta
You have rightly pointed out that the rivets attached to the friction liners are not symmetric, and no clutch in the world is visually identical on both side. That I know for a fact.

My understanding is that making this asymmetric will give different cushion deflection characteristics on a clutch. But that is very difficult to perceive in normal driving condition and might not lead to any clutch failure or degradation.

Last edited by theMAG : 16th September 2014 at 06:08. Reason: Back-Back posts. Please Edit the first post to add content < 20 minutes.
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Old 15th September 2014, 23:29   #10
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Default Re: Clutch Plate - Reverse install with dual-mass flywheel

Quote:
Originally Posted by rathsubhajeet View Post
You have rightly pointed out that the rivets attached to the friction liners are not symmetric, and no clutch in the world is visually identical on both side. That I know for a fact.

My understanding is that making this asymmetric will give different cushion deflection characteristics on a clutch. But that is very difficult to perceive in normal driving condition and might not lead to any clutch failure or degradation.
I'm not sure what a-symetrc riveting would look like. But if you take the rivets out and take the clutch apart I would dare say you are likely to see an asymmetric design on how the springs absorb drive line vibration.

Although if there are no marking and if both sides are identical I'm not sure if it would make any difference. As per Sutripta response would be nice to take it apart. But like I said earlier, I haven't come across such clutch plate yet.

Jeroen
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Old 16th September 2014, 01:10   #11
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Default Re: Clutch Plate - Reverse install with dual-mass flywheel

Sorry to ask a silly question, are the protrusions on the clutch plate on both the sides ? If the answer to this is yes, then don't worry, you can fix this any side you want.
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Old 16th September 2014, 21:26   #12
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Default Re: Clutch Plate - Reverse install with dual-mass flywheel

Quote:
Originally Posted by rathsubhajeet View Post
Could you give a more technical description on this.
A function of what the springs do, and how they these are setup.

Quote:
You have rightly pointed out that the rivets attached to the friction liners are not symmetric,
I have?

Quote:
My understanding is that making this asymmetric will give different cushion deflection characteristics on a clutch.
??


Quote:
But that is very difficult to perceive in normal driving condition and might not lead to any clutch failure or degradation.
Might not = never will?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
I'm not sure what a-symetrc riveting would look like. But if you take the rivets out and take the clutch apart I would dare say you are likely to see an asymmetric design on how the springs absorb drive line vibration.
+1

Regards
Sutripta
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Old 16th September 2014, 22:00   #13
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Default Re: Clutch Plate - Reverse install with dual-mass flywheel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
A function of what the springs do, and how they these are setup.
@Sutripta-da: What can we infer, if anything, from these pics? Relating to the springs? The grooves?

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Disclaimer: Images sourced from the internet.

Last edited by SS-Traveller : 16th September 2014 at 22:03.
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Old 16th September 2014, 22:19   #14
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Default Re: Clutch Plate - Reverse install with dual-mass flywheel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
It all depends on how well those springs and their mountings can take a load in either direction.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
Design caters to a shock load in one direction only.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
A function of what the springs do, and how they these are setup.
From the pics: there seem to be 6 coil springs arranged at approximately 60 degrees from each other. Presumably if one turns the clutch plate over, the angle will be same.

Now when the clutch plate engages the flywheel, the springs compress as they should, and therefore isolate the transmission from a sudden jerk.
So are Sutripta and Jeroen saying that this action will be compromised if clutch plate were reversed? Please explain - why.

Last edited by joybhowmik : 16th September 2014 at 22:20.
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Old 16th September 2014, 22:38   #15
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Default Re: Clutch Plate - Reverse install with dual-mass flywheel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
Design caters to a shock load in one direction only.
I want to understand how will shock loading differ if the clutch were reversed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
Sudevji,
If you take apart the clutch plate (you have to bust a lot of rivets) you will find it is not a symmetric design.
You did mention that the clutch design is not symmetric.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rathsubhajeet View Post
My understanding is that making this asymmetric will give different cushion deflection characteristics on a clutch.
The friction material is attached to the clutch plate in such a way that while disengagement of clutch, during cushion deflection phase, only the pressure plate side friction surface has axial movement and not the entire clutch plate. Only after that the clutch plate starts to move and the clutch disengages.

If the clutch were reverse fitted the entire clutch plate will have axial movement during cushion deflection.

I've tried to observe that in a vehicle by deliberately fitting the clutch in the reverse direction. It is perceivable only if you are really skilled in Clutch Characteristics Evaluation.

Also the extra movement in the clutch can cause an additional wear that may lead to durability issues. But I can not make an absolute statement without testing this on a vehicle.
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