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Old 26th September 2014, 17:24   #16
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Default Re: Absence of Oil Cooler in New Swift - How important is it?

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Originally Posted by VeyronSuperSprt View Post
The oil cooler has not been removed. It is only the rectangular box with the fins which contained the heat sink that has been removed on account of the corrosion as mentioned.
Without the heatsink does the cooler function effectively? The rectangular box has the coolant and the oil circulating through it, isn't it?
Do you know the difference between Pureflux and UFI type oil filter cooler assembly, Different companies or different design?

Last edited by Sankar : 26th September 2014 at 17:41.
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Old 26th September 2014, 18:23   #17
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Default Re: Absence of Oil Cooler in New Swift - How important is it?

As a person very closely associated with oil coolers, I can say this:

The life of an aluminium oil cooler mainly depends on the quality of oil and the corrosive+ erosive nature of oil over an extended period of time.
A vehicle with less frequent oil changes / longer oil change intervals (15000+ kms) will have higher rate of oil cooler failure than a vehicle with more frequent oil changes.
It is sadly a usual practice amongst a lot of people to change oils in the 15k-20k km range. Such cars could be affected with these coolant- oil mixing problems.
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Old 26th September 2014, 20:57   #18
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Default Re: Absence of Oil Cooler in New Swift - How important is it?

Mod Note : There are several spelling & grammatical errors in your posts. This negatively affects the forum experience for other readers.

Kindly ensure that you proof-read your posts prior to submission. Also, it would be a good idea to use spell-checkers.

Last edited by GTO : 29th September 2014 at 12:35.
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Old 27th September 2014, 01:09   #19
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Default Re: Absence of Oil Cooler in New Swift - How important is it?

Recently the oil cooler in my 6 year old skoda fabia went bad and the results were really shocking. Oil in the entire cooling system. Had a really tough time flushing the entire thing. Its supposed to be a common problem in the old PD engine. Not sure how many people have faces it here but if you are reading this and have a 5+ year old engine do get it changed
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Old 27th September 2014, 01:27   #20
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Default Re: Absence of Oil Cooler in New Swift - How important is it?

What about the Ford 1.4 tdci engine? Does that have an oil cooler, considering its an age old design compared to the modern 1.3MJD?

MaSh
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Old 27th September 2014, 12:24   #21
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Default Re: Absence of Oil Cooler in New Swift - How important is it?

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Originally Posted by mashmash View Post
What about the Ford 1.4 tdci engine? Does that have an oil cooler, considering its an age old design compared to the modern 1.3MJD?

MaSh
Yes, the 1.4tdci engine has an oil cooler. Most of the diesels have an oil cooler.
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Old 28th September 2014, 11:34   #22
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Default Re: Absence of Oil Cooler in New Swift - How important is it?

In my experience of diesel engines, and in particular the concern of 'Oil mixing in coolant', I was able to conclude the following reasons for the nuisance:

1) Design/ Manufacturing related:
a) Oil cooler to coolant body sealing area - machining errors (namely surface finish, tolerances),
b) O ring quality/ design (incompatibility with expected impurities in oil/ coolant) or welding spots.
c) Casting imperfections in cast iron 'headers' (if in use) in place of direct pipes for coolant and oil supply - the porosities in between the walls of engine oil and coolant would make them mix.

2) End user related:
a) Non - recommended use of fluids (engine oil/ coolant) making them incompatible with sealing points like o rings/ gaskets.
b) Non - adherance to maintainence schedules of fluid changes.

I am a little unsure, but I think oil cooler's may be primarily required in engines which require cooling of pistons'. This specific application of piston cooling requires a mechanism to take the hot engine oil from the sump, cool it down and then channelise it via the oil pump to spray underneath the moving pistons - essentially, to dissipate the piston body's heat. (a little complex? Please pardon me :P )

Ergo, with advancements in piston design/ combustion processes/ engine oil cooling enhancements - the engine designers may well have eliminated the need of an oil cooler! (And aren't the Japanese are Senseis of continous improvement, right?)

Also, thanks to my brilliant seniors at my erstwhile company, I learned an interesting thing I'd like to share with the readers - the coolant never mixes with in the oil, rather, it is the oil that mixes with the coolant! Simply because the oil is at a higher pressure (5-6bar) than the coolant (~1bar) - essentially polluting the coolant (which turns a milky/ curdy white) while oil remains relatively clean - hehe. Of course both are recommended to replace if such a thing is observed.
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Old 28th September 2014, 12:57   #23
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Default Re: Absence of Oil Cooler in New Swift - How important is it?

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I am a little unsure, but I think oil cooler's may be primarily required in engines which require cooling of pistons'. This specific application of piston cooling requires a mechanism to take the hot engine oil from the sump, cool it down and then channelise it via the oil pump to spray underneath the moving pistons - essentially, to dissipate the piston body's heat. (a little complex? Please pardon me :P )
Yes, this engine has oil squirters aimed at the pistons.
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Old 29th September 2014, 10:58   #24
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Default Re: Absence of Oil Cooler in New Swift - How important is it?

I am not able to understand why the oil cooling was required in Swift earlier and now it has been done away with:

- There are no technology changes in the 1.3 MJD and as I understand FIAT is continuing with oil cooler in both Punto and Linea while MSIL stopped.

- The tropical Indian weather, road conditions and driving habits along with excessive traffic in tier I cities does call for oil cooling, also it has a direct bearing on the oil viscosity (changes with change in temperature), though it seems that in new models MSIL has changed the grade of oil from 15W40 to 5W40, yet I am not sure if the service staff at the ASS as well as neighborhood garage would actually be vigilant of this new requirement

- Is it simply a cost cutting measure of MSIL, if yes then it cannot be called as smart move as they are compromising with engine performance

- If there have been reported incidents of coolant-oil mixing, they can plan out change of certain engine components (similar to timing chain / belt) instead of removing it

I am confused !
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Old 30th September 2014, 20:26   #25
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Default Re: Absence of Oil Cooler in New Swift - How important is it?

Maruti has retained the oil cooler in the Ertiga, probably because of the higher output of the engine.

Part no of the Ertiga oil cooler is 16500M55KD0, price apprx Rs.5200/- Price of the old Swift oil cooler is apprx Rs.4600/-
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Old 4th October 2014, 17:00   #26
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Default Re: Absence of Oil Cooler in New Swift - How important is it?

Ertiga's oil cooler Now have to see if it fits, else return it. Well it should but i'm worried about a pipe going into the AC compressor which looks kind of positioned in front of the cooler assy so need to check the clearance between it and the cooler box.
Absence of Oil Cooler in New Swift - How important is it?-20141004_162647.jpg
Oil cooler assy with heat exchanger core (cooler box as i call it) in the front. I fail to see how the new Swift's ""oil cooler"" works without the heat exchanger core. Eventhough the parts book and the workshop manual calls it an ""oil cooler"" it is not an oil cooler i don't see where the heat exchange happens without the cooler box.

The cooler box is made in Italy. UFI make.

Absence of Oil Cooler in New Swift - How important is it?-20141004_162704.jpg
Coolant pathways are on bottom left and right, oil pathways are on top. Oil goes in through the top circulates inside the cooler box, some is directed to turbo and rest of it drains back into the sump through the second hole from the top. When oil is filled through the filler neck thats also routed into the sump through second hole.

If i can find a good machinist it is possible to make an adapter plate with threaded fittings and install it where the cooler box goes and run a hose to an external oil cooler and back like below.
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Src: http://www.nosmokenopoke.com/forum/s...ith-GT17/page3

Last edited by Sankar : 4th October 2014 at 17:22.
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Old 5th October 2014, 02:36   #27
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Default Re: Absence of Oil Cooler in New Swift - How important is it?

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Originally Posted by Sankar View Post
Ertiga's oil cooler Now have to see if it fits, else return it. [/url]
how much did you get this for ? planning to change this in my 3 year old SX4 diesel with 85k on the odo. In my opinion and after the recent struggle with Fabia, oil coolers are equivalent to timing belts. Must be changed as part of preventive maintenance
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Old 5th October 2014, 10:55   #28
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Default Re: Absence of Oil Cooler in New Swift - How important is it?

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how much did you get this for ? planning to change this in my 3 year old SX4 diesel with 85k on the odo. In my opinion and after the recent struggle with Fabia, oil coolers are equivalent to timing belts. Must be changed as part of preventive maintenance
Price is RS5300/- at the maruti spares outlet. The cooler-engine block interface gasket comes with the cooler assy so that need not be bought separately (16539M86J200, Rs140/- if bought separate). However you will need a pair of new copper washers (13934M86J00) for turbo oil feed and a coolant inlet gasket (17972M86J00).
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Old 5th October 2014, 16:57   #29
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Default Why Do We Need An Engine Oil Cooler?

Recently i came across this interesting article on Engine Oil Cooler from Mocal oil coolers. I'm uploading the entire stuff from their web page http://www.mocal.co.uk/FAQ.html

WHY DO WE NEED AN ENGINE OIL COOLER?

The design of any car, with the exception of the many that are fitted with an oil cooler as standard, will ensure that just sufficient cooling by airflow across the sump takes place under normal conditions of use to keep the oil of a chosen viscosity at its design temperature, without for reasons we will discuss later, overcooling. It follows that changes to the specification or usage of the vehicle can cause the oil to exceed its design temperature. The changes most likely to cause an increase in oil temperature are:
  1. Increase in rpm, the oil cooling requirement of an engine will increase up to threefold for an increase of 1000rpm, making this the most common cause of engine oil overheating. German specification cars are always designed with extra oil cooling because of possible high speed running on unrestricted autobahns. On the track the almost constant use of high rpm makes an oil cooler mandatory, even in an unmodified engine.
  2. Obstruction of airflow to the sump, caused by fitting sump guards, spoilers etc.
  3. Oil circulation through a turbo charger not only lubricates but also removes a large amount of heat which will add to the overall cooling requirement.
  4. Increasing the power output of the engine will increase combustion temperatures but except in the cases where oil is used to cool the piston crowns, most of the excess heat will be taken away by the water coolant system.
IS OVERHEATED OIL A PROBLEM?

Oil as it gets hotter becomes thinner (less viscous), losing its film strength, this film strength supported by oil pressure is what keeps bearing surfaces from touching, once bearing surfaces touch, metal is removed, clearances widen, oil pressure drops, the contact surfaces are further worn away and immediate engine failure takes place.

It is also worth considering that, in the modern engine, oil is used as a coolant of pistons crowns, if the top of the piston becomes too hot detonation takes place causing loss of power or even piston/gasket failure.

Some oils are advertised as being able to cope with higher temperatures, this is easily achieved by supplying a more viscous oil that will have greater film strength for a given temperature, the down side is that at lower temperatures there will be higher friction/pumping losses.

The oils recommended for everyday motoring will have a viscosity sufficient to cope with the warmest extremes of expected motoring conditions, by fitting an oil cooler and oilstat a very low viscosity oil, giving increased power and decreased fuel consumption during relaxed motoring can be used.

It will be appreciated from the foregoing that there is no optimum engine oil temperature, modern oils will not be damaged by high temperatures although some may leave varnish deposits which can block oil ways. Every engine will have a different oil temperature requirement but, as a general rule temperatures in excess of 110oC should be avoided.

WHAT KIND OF OIL COOLERS ARE THERE?

OIL TO AIR COOLERS

Pressed plate type:
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The most popular oil to air coolers are the pressed or stacked plate range of coolers which were first made in the late 50’s, These coolers built to our specification since 1965 must rate as the single most commonly used component on racing cars world wide.

The cooler consists of a variable number of aluminium pressed plates forming oil ways and end tanks, the oil ways contain turbulators which not only break down boundary layer effect in the flow to obtain maximum heat dissipation without undue pressure drop but also because they are brazed to both surfaces of the plates hold them together under pressure. The oil ways are interspersed with aluminium strip louvered and formed into corrugations to provide airways.

The design is beautifully simple and efficient and most suitable for mass production, but being made from expensive press tooling it is restricted in thickness and length but not height.

Tube & Fin type:
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Making a comeback is the tube and fin cooler consisting of a number of preformed flattened tubes surrounding turbulators and separated by corrugated airways, this is a more flexible design allowing infinite lengths, depths can be in multiples of the tube width, however end tanks have to be made separately resulting in a more expensive and heavier assembly. The finned tube type of oil cooler is an anachronism only suitable where space is unlimited.

Plate & bar type:
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The current money is no object attitude prevailing in the top echelons of motor racing has resulted in a couple of aerospace heat exchanger manufacturers becoming interested in supplying their plate and bar coolers to the racing car industry they are fabricated from strip, and can be made to the exact size to suit the customers packaging requirements.

OIL TO WATER COOLERS

Laminova Cooler
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The most common the tube and fin in a shell type cooler, popular in marine usage is too heavy and cumbersome. Up to recently the ubiquitous pressed plate type of oil to air cooler but in a fabricated water jacket has been the answer, now the amazing Laminova laminar flow cooler has opened the automotive market to oil to water coolers. The main components are two aluminium extrusions, one forming the outer shell, the other the core which by some magical process has been machined to provide fins 0.2 mm ( 7 thou) thick and 3mm high and spaced 0.3mm (11 thou) apart through which the oil flows, such restrictive finning would normally cause a huge pressure drop, but by introducing channels in the finning, the oil flow is kept laminar as opposed to turbulent as in other cooler designs and the pressure drop remains low. The water flows through extruded channels in the outer core, removable plugs/restrictors control water pressure drop This construction is pretty versatile the shell and core being made in 4 different diameters with, in theory, infinitely variable lengths. For very compact installations, cores may be slotted into each other. The secret to obtaining the best performance is to tailor the removeable plugs to obtain the best oil temperature drop without compromising the water temperature.

Donut Cooler
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The donut cooler has a variable number of pressed plates forming oil and water ways, the oil ways containing turbulators. A pressure relief valve is incorporated to allow oil to bypass the oil ways during cold starts, excessive oil flows or blockage. Pressure drops through this type of cooler are high.

WHICH ARE THE BEST OIL COOLERS?

All the coolers discussed here, except the finned tube and the Laminova are as efficient as each other in so far as greater heat rejection can only be obtained at the expense of oil pressure drop or air pressure drop, On the oil side the performance is controlled by the design of the turbulators, if you increase the amount of turbulence and make the oil follow a more tortuous path so as to bring it into greater contact with the cooling surface area to obtain greater heat dissipation you will increase the oil pressure drop, often the very problem you are fitting an oil cooler to avoid.

On the air side if you increase the pitch of the corrugations or increase the depth (front to back measurement) you will increase the air pressure drop, thus requiring higher vehicle speed or sophisticated ducting to obtain better results.

The fluid to fluid cooler becomes viable when packaging constraints do not allow for mounting a cooler in the airstream and where there is enough thermal capacity in the water radiator to cope with the extra loads, because engine coolant warms more quickly than the oil, the oil warm up is quicker which can show benefits in engine wear and economy. The Laminova cooler is able to achieve a high degree of efficiency within a slim envelope because the unique finning provides an enormous cooling surface area in contact with the oil Although not as cost effective as the pressed plate cooler, there are bonuses in that it is very strong and unlikely to be damaged in any but the biggest crash and it may be stripped for cleaning purposes, invaluable after an engine blow up.

The donut cooler is designed for ease of installation, fitting between filter head and filter and using a bypass water flow (in a similar fashion to a car heater) , as it cannot use the full water flow performance cannot match the Laminova, it is made of stainless steel thus incurring a weight penalty compared to all others.

The bar and plate coolers are not, in their construction, any more efficient than the pressed plate, tube type or Laminova coolers, their value lies in their being able to be made to exactly match the vehicle requirements where all relevant parameters, oil flow, air flow, temperatures, acceptable oil pressure drop, and air pressure at varying speeds are known. These hand made coolers are priced in thousands of pounds.

We think that the design of the pressed plate cooler is the best compromise to cover all types of motoring and motor sport, irrespective of price, the best of the competitors offer very similar performance because their design closely follows our product. However there are now a number of Chinese made copies on the market which due to lack of investment in proper tooling are heavier but worse are inadequately brazed resulting in early failure when subjected to pressure cycling tests. Unless a cooler has genuine Mocal, Setrab or PWR labels we suggest you avoid. In the literature of one of the many sellers they claim "these coolers have been developed from years of practical experience in the Motorsport field".We very much doubt that anyone in the Chinese factories has ever heard of a racing car much less have ever seen one.

Heat dissipated is not necessarily the sole reason for choosing a cooler, A larger cooler may be chosen to avoid excessive oil pressure drop, be aware that the more rows/tubes and the shorter their length the smaller will be the pressure drop or in the case of the Laminova the longer the cooler the smaller the oil pressure drop although the water pressure drop is greater.
--

Addendum: The donut oil coolers are used where the filter used is of the metal canister type, i.e., spin on fitment. The Oil cooler mentioned in this thread is similar to the donut cooler in operation but not the same because filter is a cartridge type.

Last edited by Sankar : 5th October 2014 at 17:04.
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Old 5th October 2014, 18:41   #30
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Default Re: Absence of Oil Cooler in New Swift - How important is it?

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Originally Posted by Sankar View Post
Ertiga's oil cooler Now have to see if it fits, else return it. Well it should but i'm worried about a pipe going into the AC compressor which looks kind of positioned in front of the cooler assy so need to check the clearance between it and the cooler box.
Attachment 1295678
Hi sankar, is there a method to measure the peak oil temperatures on your swift? I know of AVL PUC machines (opacity testers) for diesel which has a probe which measures oil temperature. But most PUC centers, they bypass this for ease.

It would be interesting to check the oil at a lab prior to your scheduled oil drain, this will let us know if your oil was indeed under exceptional thermal stress. If it is not, then a aftermarket mod on the oil cooler may not be required at all.
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