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Old 2nd August 2006, 13:22   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rtech
All these tall boys have been on sale in other developed markets for years now. Surely they have been tested and approved by competent authorities over there?
Never know, Suzuki introduced a Jeep like vehicle (pre SUV days) called the Samurai in the US. It took a few years to be recalled. Mercedes was a bit faster (in response) with their earlier version of the A class (it falied the Elk test). So US and EU makrets are not fail-safe.
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Old 2nd August 2006, 14:18   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteKnight
I have one disagreement-The Lancer. Lancer is much wider than Ikon and has almost the same hight. The how came it falls below Ikon?
The Ikon is a good 3.57% shorter than the Lancer. But it is only 3.31% narrower.
That's what makes the Ikon flatter to the ground and more squat than the Lancer.

The Lancer's flat wide snout leads to the optical illusion that it is squatter than it really is.
The Ikon's "Ford-edge" look and stubby hindquarters do the opposite for it. They support the illusion of a taller narrower car than reality.

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Old 2nd August 2006, 14:23   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shan2nu
Handling isn't about track to height ratio. This is just a fraction of what contributes to it.
You're not wrong, but what fraction of contribution to handling does width to height ratio, play? 80% or 20%?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shan2nu
The Innova for example is a taller car but still handles well bcos of it's relatively stiffer suspension.
Yes the Innova is taller. But is it a car? The big bus certainly doesn't participate in the World Rally Championship (WRC)!





As far as stiff suspensions go, tractors and fork-lift trucks and road-rollers have the stiffest suspension of all. Does that make them handlers?

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Old 2nd August 2006, 14:44   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shan2nu
If we go by your list, the Mitsubishi Lancer should be one of the worst handling car in it's class bcoz it comes below the OHC, Baleno and Ford Ikon but handling tests by Overdrive have shown diff results.
The Octavia does better than the Baleno in cornering speeds but your list says something else.
Excuse me! My table has accurate height-to-width aspect ratios. I compiled it myself.

Wasn't the original objective to discuss susceptibility to being blown off-track in a crosswind and liability to topple during ferocious cornering?
The tall-boys and very tall-boys are notorious for both.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shan2nu
I ain't saying this doesn't help but you can't completely rely on it. It may or may not work.

Shan2nu
Again, you are right Shan2nu. Aspect ratio not only helps but is a good metric (measure) of stability.

The Maruti Versas, SUVs, MPVs, minivans and double-decker buses, even if with alloys, ZR-tires and stiff non-compliant suspensions, will still neither become expressway burners, autobahn patrol interceptors nor rally cars.
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Old 2nd August 2006, 17:43   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by navin
Never know, Suzuki introduced a Jeep like vehicle (pre SUV days) called the Samurai in the US. It took a few years to be recalled. Mercedes was a bit faster (in response) with their earlier version of the A class (it falied the Elk test). So US and EU makrets are not fail-safe.
Nothing is foolproof in this world! One of the most stable 4 wheels vehicles in the world is a go-kart. Its track and wheelbase is almost the same as its total length. It sits less than an inch off the road and it C of G is as low as you can ever hope to achieve on 4 wheels with a driver. However, you will still have cases where a kart flips over!

What Ram has mentioned is kind of a rough idea as to what is and is not a stable vehicle in the Indian market. Although I don't agree with his list 100%, it doesn't take a genius to conclude that a Maruti Versa or Wagon R would be more susceptible to turning turtle than an Octavia or Lancer.

However to go as far as to say that these tall boy's should be taken off the streets is the other extreme! By that logic, almost every SUV should be taken off the streets as well. The only reason they don't test SUV's in the ELK test (which itself is a controversial test and not required by any Govt. in the world), is because they are classified as trucks and not cars abroad. Hence they are not subject to the same tests and regulations as family saloons and hatchbacks.
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Old 2nd August 2006, 17:58   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mpower
First vehicle to fail it in India will be the Gypsy.
Not true man. I've driven my Gypsy King soft top like a maniac during my college days, including twisty roads and ghats. Also done lots of handbrake turns and 180s (hey, it was a long time ago!). I've never faced any toppling issues in all the 8 years of manhandling the jeep. We fit bigger radials to improve the handling etc, but they were MRFs so I doubth they were making that much of a difference.

Our earlier Gypsy with the hard top and narrower wheelbase was a bit dodgy though, to be fair.
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Old 2nd August 2006, 18:29   #22
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Anyone know where the high-roof Omni fits in here? It looked almost like an egg on wheels Is it sold anymore?
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Old 2nd August 2006, 18:34   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rtech
What Ram has mentioned is kind of a rough idea as to what is and is not a stable vehicle in the Indian market. Although I don't agree with his list 100%...
Rtech: I am politely curious to understand why you would not agree with my list 100% ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rtech
The only reason they don't test SUVs in the ELK test (which itself is a controversial test and not required by any Govt. in the world), is because they are classified as trucks and not cars abroad. Hence they are not subject to the same tests and regulations as family saloons and hatchbacks.
Then why are these so-called "trucks" licensed for use as private cars with private car driving licenses?
Who should take the heat for risk to life and limb? The innocent buyer?
Is it all about caveat emptor?
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Old 2nd August 2006, 18:43   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rtech
However to go as far as to say that these tall boy's should be taken off the streets is the other extreme! By that logic, almost every SUV should be taken off the streets as well.
Exactly Where did I say, "all these tall boy's should be taken off the streets"?

All I said is, "We don't have any regulatory body with the backbone to test all our Far East tall boys and outlaw the sale of those that fail."

What is so wrong about outlawing the sale in 2006 of a brand new vehicle, that fails to meet modern global safety standards? Why is everybody decrying that?

Why can't we arm-twist manufacturers wishing to do business in India into ensuring that every vehicle they sell meet international standards for consumer merchantability? Not the world's loosest standards but the most stringent?

In this case standards for safety to life and limb at under normal operating conditions at normal speeds? Is that such a tall unreal expectation?

We are not expecting people to drive a 45 degree slope at right-angles to the slope.
And we are not expecting them to reach 175 km/h.

Why should our stds be any less stringent than the Germans, the Swedes, the Finns or the French? Why should India compromise and be short-changed?
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Old 2nd August 2006, 19:02   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boom Shiva
Not true man. I've driven my Gypsy King soft top like a maniac during my college days, including twisty roads and ghats. Also done lots of handbrake turns and 180s (hey, it was a long time ago!). I've never faced any toppling issues in all the 8 years of manhandling the jeep. We fit bigger radials to improve the handling etc, but they were MRFs so I doubth they were making that much of a difference.

Our earlier Gypsy with the hard top and narrower wheelbase was a bit dodgy though, to be fair.
The Samurai that Navin refered to is nothing but a SWB Gypsy. It caused a big rollover controversy in the States the late 80s. Fitting grippier rubber will make things worse because the vehicle will not under/oversteer and therefore more prone to roll.

Anyways, there is no point in arguing over this. This metric is a rough indicator of roll stability. Moreover the speeds/traffic in India dont require high roll stability.

How often have you heard of a WagonR, Omni or a Versa flipping over? Why worry about a problem that dosent exist.
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Old 2nd August 2006, 19:03   #26
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Quote:
You're not wrong, but what fraction of contribution to handling does width to height ratio, play? 80% or 20%?
Surely not 80%.

Quote:
Yes the Innova is taller. But is it a car?
Are the Versa and Omni cars? Coz I see them on your list.

Quote:
The big bus certainly doesn't participate in the World Rally Championship (WRC)!
For the same reason why you don't see Lambos and Ferraris. WRC has certain criterias which the bus or the supercar can't satisfy. Where as, the Dakar rally is ruled by tall bulky vehicles.

Quote:
Wasn't the original objective to discuss susceptibility to being blown off-track in a crosswind and liability to topple during ferocious cornering?
The tall-boys and very tall-boys are notorious for both.
So what you're saying is "It's safer to do 180kmph on a Hyundai Accent than on a Porsche Cayenne or an X5, just bcoz it's lower?" I ain't buying that.......and nobody else will.

Quote:
Excuse me! My table has accurate height-to-width aspect ratios. I compiled it myself.
The fault is not in your table. The fault is in the way you percieve it. Don't always go by what you see on paper. The reality is far more unpredictable.

Quote:
As far as stiff suspensions go, tractors and fork-lift trucks and road-rollers have the stiffest suspension of all. Does that make them handlers?
What next? Fred Flinstone's car i presume........

Just hold a poll and you'l know what everyone thinks about your views.

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Old 2nd August 2006, 19:10   #27
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The Gypsy ST isn't AS top-heavy as people think, and with wide rubber, it takes a LOT to take it off the intended line.

As for the stability issue, the factor in straight-line stability is not JUST the height-to-track ratio. There's traction (owed to tyres and vehicle weight) and aerodynamics too. While cornering, suspension and chassis components are factored in as well.

If you take the Swift, for example, whose dimensions are thus;

Width:1690mm
Height:1530mm
Track (F/R): 1470/1480 mm

If you take the vehicle width, then the ratio turns out to be 1:1.104 (width/height), but if you take the track, it turns out to be 1:0.967.

The table has been compiled using overall width, which could include mirrors, etc. Not track.

By this theory, The Tata Safari should be stabler than the matiz, with a ratio of 1:0.97...!!
(Tata Safari: Width-1918mm; Height-1925mm)


Quote:
Originally Posted by ram
Why should our stds be any less stringent than the Germans, the Swedes, the Finns or the French? Why should India compromise and be short-changed?
Because we do not have cheap fuel, powerful, cheap and affordable cars, dedicated race/drag tracks, or a proper system. When we do, we can implement all those stringent laws. If we don't compromise on the quality of life, cars, etc., we don't need to, on the laws as well.

Last edited by veyron1 : 2nd August 2006 at 19:13.
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Old 2nd August 2006, 19:24   #28
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adding some more to this list

Accord : 1:1.25
OHC : 1:1.21
Civic : 1:1.20
Elantra : 1:1.20
Optra : 1:1.19
Accent : 1:1.19
Corolla : 1:1.14
NHC : 1:1.13
Palio : 1:1.07

So, is Accent more stable than a Corrola, and as stable as an Octy ?
And NHC as stable as a Fiesta and Aveo, or almost as stable as a Corolla ?

And where does this leave the Palio ?

Last edited by goldie_malhotra : 2nd August 2006 at 19:28.
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Old 2nd August 2006, 19:30   #29
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Just curious - where are we heading with this topic, what exactly is any of this proving and is it likely to influence our buying or driving decisions in any way??
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Old 2nd August 2006, 20:58   #30
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Quote:
Just curious - where are we heading with this topic, what exactly is any of this proving and is it likely to influence our buying or driving decisions in any way??
This table wont affect any decision.

Its just for someone to look at and say "Wow!!! My car has a stance, almost as sporty as a Porsche 911".

The problem arises, when that "someone" takes this table for granted and tries to immitate a Porsche's capabilities, with his family saloon.

Quote:
So, is Accent more stable than a Corrola, and as stable as an Octy ?
And NHC as stable as a Fiesta and Aveo, or almost as stable as a Corolla ?

And where does this leave the Palio ?
Exactly.

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