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Old 26th February 2015, 20:08   #151
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Default Re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

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Originally Posted by arunkk View Post
And in the workshop I got it repaired, they said there is no visible damage to the timing chain and this engine failure just cannot happen due to this.
There you are. Right in the beginning, i was saying it is catastrophic lubrication failure and not the timer drive.
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Old 26th February 2015, 20:25   #152
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Default Re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

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There you are. Right in the beginning, i was saying it is catastrophic lubrication failure and not the timer drive.
Exactly its just the pathetic state of affairs at fiat service centers that cause these kind of failures. I have seen SAs just casually ticking the service check points during the vehicle delivery time. There is no mechanism in place to cross check if something is missed or not.

Anyway I have sold the car now. Exchanged it with Maruti Ciaz. Voted for hassle free ownership and peace of mind this time.
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Old 26th February 2015, 21:35   #153
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Default Re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

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Exactly its just the pathetic state of affairs at fiat service centers that cause these kind of failures. I have seen SAs just casually ticking the service check points during the vehicle delivery time. There is no mechanism in place to cross check if something is missed or not.

Anyway I have sold the car now. Exchanged it with Maruti Ciaz. Voted for hassle free ownership and peace of mind this time.
I still think the entire truth is not out. I also own a fiat and my son had a fiat. I can vouch for fiat dealerships. All the while i did not want to state that but i sincerely feel you have not come out with the full story. Have you filled up oil on your own on high ways without realising you are mixing tow grades? Come on..out with it! Good luck with your Ciaz. Hope you treat it better based on your lessons learnt. poor shod who bought yout fiat. Hope he knows the history. By the way, my linea is 1 lakh plus without problems. Dealerships n Chennai both RDC and Ramkay are good. But if i fill up oil from wayside shops even they cannot help me.
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Old 26th February 2015, 21:57   #154
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Default Re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

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Originally Posted by alavandar View Post
I still think the entire truth is not out. I also own a fiat and my son had a fiat. I can vouch for fiat dealerships. All the while i did not want to state that but i sincerely feel you have not come out with the full story. Have you filled up oil on your own on high ways without realising you are mixing tow grades? Come on..out with it!
I can understand the feelings of a true fiat fan, even I was one earlier :-)
If at all low grade engine oil is filled, it must be from the fiat service center itself. I have all regular 15K services done at authorized centers which can be checked from my car's service history. So what is the need for filling oil from highways?

If you read this thread fully, there are two other cases reported with premature engine failures in fiats. Do you think they also did engine oil mixup?
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Old 26th February 2015, 23:38   #155
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Originally Posted by alavandar View Post
I still think the entire truth is not out.

All the while i did not want to state that but i sincerely feel you have not come out with the full story.
Oh C'mon Alavandar!

I am happy to see a Happy Fiat customer but reality isn't the same elsewhere in India, many still suffer with their ASC standards and problem solving methods.

Why do you say that oil mix up will ruin the engine? IMO, current generation engines are robust and not that sensitive. There would be many a failure due to oil grades mix up in India but that isn't the case generally.

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Originally Posted by arunkk View Post
I can understand the feelings of a true fiat fan, even I was one earlier.
If at all low grade engine oil is filled, it must be from the fiat service center itself.
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Old 27th February 2015, 06:12   #156
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Default Re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

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Originally Posted by a4anurag View Post
Oh C'mon Alavandar!

I am happy to see a Happy Fiat customer but reality isn't the same elsewhere in India, many still suffer with their ASC standards and problem solving methods.
Hi there I am not a sad sack and i express my happiness when i feel so. And it is not criminal.

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Why do you say that oil mix up will ruin the engine? IMO, current generation engines are robust and not that sensitive. There would be many a failure due to oil grades mix up in India but that isn't the case generally.
You are talking out of ignorance. Please read my earlier write ups. When we mix synthetic or semi-synthetic oil and mineral oil, they form a terrible sludge, which can clog the oil path orifices leading to lubrication failure. I am a qualified mechanical and marine engineer of 35 years experience and can state this with confidence.

I do not want to give all the multiple quotes but if you read carefully, from the beginning of the thread, you would realise that, the SA's advise to readmit the car was ignored by the car owner and was driven as such with unidentified defect for considerable distances.

The SA may not be correct when his diagnosis was faulty timer chain. But when the car is admitted the trained mechanic is sure to locate the problem and take corrective action.

Negligence or ticking off the check lists is common not only in India but also elsewhere (as i read in these pages this was done to a high end car owner in a foreign location and he caught the dealer in the act). I do not justify it but any system is only as good or bad as people who implement it down the line.

When I took delivery of my Jetta, they were trying to routinely tick off items. I stopped them and made them check every thing. There was one item, "check the fuel tank is half full". I took the issue with the CRO and then to the Manger and got 28 litres of diesel filled up in the tank.

If the particular dealership is bad or if we suspect something amiss or if there is an unexplained defect in car, then it is for us to take up the issues to the logical end.

In my Fiat, when I was hesitant to change some parts, the works manager (RDC fiat) himself came and met me to explain why i should do it. I followed his advise and end of the day he was right. Why it is not happening or why the user did not ask for it in Bangalore, where car owners are having higher awareness.

In the 57000km failure case, looking at the photos posted, I am very sure that either the engine sump was topped up with mineral oil or by mistake with brake fluid (either at the dealership during servicing or later, when before the long trip the owner had done it on his own). If it was done at dealership, it is unlikely to take 1400 km for the failure to occur, without showing any symptoms. Imagine 1400 km is 35 hours of engine running (minimum) given the Bangalore traffic conditions and it is quite a lot of time.
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Old 27th February 2015, 08:09   #157
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Default Re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

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Originally Posted by alavandar View Post
The SA may not be correct when his diagnosis was faulty timer chain.
Yes, and so it was found later that the chain did not have any issue, so it cannot cause any further issues.

So what was the original problem that gave noise and the SA misdiagnosed it as the timing chain?

A gradual loss of lubrication? 1 litre of oil found in 3 litre sump capacity, so provided that there is no leak anywhere, i kinda believe your proposal that it must have formed sludge.

If one reads the first post, arunkk mentions that the issue came up when he was doing sustained 120 kmph speeds- doing such speeds with a poor lubrication capability- that engine should deserve some applause.

The SA went with precedence since VGT engines had premature chain wear, and he suspected that.

Hope the work involved cleaning up the oil pathways in the engine too, otherwise, the new owner will face the same trouble very soon.
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Old 27th February 2015, 09:48   #158
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Default Re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

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Originally Posted by alavandar View Post
I do not want to give all the multiple quotes but if you read carefully, from the beginning of the thread, you would realise that, the SA's advise to readmit the car was ignored by the car owner and was driven as such with unidentified defect for considerable distances.

The SA may not be correct when his diagnosis was faulty timer chain. But when the car is admitted the trained mechanic is sure to locate the problem and take corrective action.
Though the issue was not with timing chain, the only chance was the mechanic would have found the real issue while replacing the timing chain. Knowing the fiat ASCs, I see that as a very remote possibility. When the SA supposedly heard this sound from engine, his immediate response was to suggest a replacement for whatever component he felt like, than to do a thorough analysis of the issue. And believe me when I say this, the SA was not at all convincing enough when he recommended the timing chain change. His only reasoning was 90hp engines are recommended to do this change at 60K, so you also better do it.

Also I hope you have read the below incident reported by Sid who has got engine failure even after replacing timing chain in his Linea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sid77 View Post
Sure.....it all started when I started getting a sound from the engine at around 57000 kms. The car is registered in Bangalore but, we have relocated to Agra (UP) now.....the FASS in Agra () diagnosed it as a timing chain issue....I was told that this is a known issue and that the timing chain replacement has been mandated by the company at the 60000 kms service....the car was out of extended warranty....so, I gave the go ahead and the timing chain was replaced ...my expense was around 11K......

Last Sunday...we were on our way to Delhi via Yamuna Expressway.....the speed was 110-120 kmph....after crossing the 3rd toll...which is a run of around 125 kms...suddenly the car engine started making knocking noise which went on increasing....I stopped to check.....it seemed to be coming from top of the engine.....nearest FASS was Obeoi FIAT, Noida......managed to trace their contact details....they advised to bring the car directly to the SC slowly.....I did just that.......

The investigations led to the diagnosis that the engine bearings had scrathes and one of these were even chipped off....the debris from this has circulated in the entire engine and engine overhaul was the only option.....oil was sufficient as required.....but was silvery in colour due to the debris.....the turbo alignment was out completely and needed repair......half engine block....different types of packing and gaskets......
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Old 27th February 2015, 15:25   #159
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Default Re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

In this thread I see a continuous mentioning on timing chain issues and oil related issues. Let me give some perspective.

They are two very different things alltogether. There are different tell tales, warning sign. When the damage is done it is very, very evident what it was, either a timing chain issue or oil related.

1 Timing Chain
Timing chains do wear, on some cars, you can (and should) measure it as part of preventive maintenance every so many years of 60-100K km. It will be in the owners manual.

Other than the chain itself the part most prone to wear and breaking are typically the tensioners. The tell tales of a stretched chain and or chain tensioners wearing are typically a bit of clattering noises, especially when starting the engine from cold. These days on modern cars, it might actually be difficult to pick up.

When a chain breaks or a tensioners, you will know because you will hear a lot of very loud noises and the engine will seize to work immediately. When you open it up, you will find things like broken chain, tensioners, bent valves, damaged piston, possible damages to bearings. You can go from a perfectly normal running engine to a catastrophic failure in literally seconds.

In theory a chain could break due to poor lubrication due to lack of oil or very poor quality oil. In practice other parts of the engine are much more likely to break way before that. You would be surprised how long the chain, tensioners, sprockets wheels and so can run with very or no lubrication.. Check the chain on your bike for instance.

I find it hard to imagine that wear and tear on the chain and or tensioners would bring a noticeable difference in your FE or engine performance. It tends to be all or nothing. It works pretty much ok, even when worn, then somethign breaks.

2 Oil related
A lot of this has already been described, but to summarize. Roughly speaking poor quality oil or no or to little oil. I have written many posts on the quality of oil already. As long as you have more or less the right specification it should be fine. The matter of synthetic to non syntheric. Stick with the car/engine manufacturing recommendation. I would be hesistant to deviate from that. Although, I would not think anything dramatic would happen overnight.

Mixing synthetic and non synthetic is a potential recipe for disaster though. At a minimum you can't really predict the outcome. These days there are oils on the market that claim can be mixed with everything else.

As long as your oil is ok, the level of oil is relevant. In practice on most cars/engine your engine pressure light comes on effectively due to too low level. So actually you are too late and the only course of action is to try and stop the car as safely as you can and shut the engine down as quickly.

Low level oil without an oil pressure alarm, will lead over very prolonged use additional wear and tear. Typically not on the bearings, as they will always get oil as long as there is pressure. Everyhting that depends on splash lubrucation. e.g. piston rings / cilinder wall etc.

It is a very gradual effect and overtime you can start seeing it in the exhaust, blow by, pressure in the crankcase etc.

When you loose oil pressure, the tell tales, when driving the car will be a lot of noises coming from the engine and ultemately the engine will seize, i.e. lock up completely. Usually because the bearings run to hot, and effectively the crank seizes into the bearing.

So although ultemately you will have a catastrophic failure, it tends to take noticeable longer and you will see a very different kind of damage to the engine then when the chain or tensioners break.

Obviously there are always exceptions to the above. But in most cases it is very noticeable, based on the symptons, or otherwise when you open the engine what was the cause.

Unless a very specific execption, a timing chain and or tensioners dont break due to poor oil, or to little oil. Something else will give long before that.


Jeroen

Last edited by Jeroen : 27th February 2015 at 15:29.
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Old 27th February 2015, 16:15   #160
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Default Re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

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Originally Posted by arunkk View Post
Though the issue was not with timing chain, the only chance was the mechanic would have found the real issue while replacing the timing chain. Knowing the fiat ASCs, I see that as a very remote possibility.
I beg to differ with you. Please read through sid77 completely and you will realise you are wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arunkk View Post
Also I hope you have read the below incident reported by Sid who has got engine failure even after replacing timing chain in his Linea.
I have given a better reading than you, how, I will explain.

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Originally Posted by sid77 View Post
Sure.....it all started when I started getting a sound from the engine at around 57000 kms. The car is registered in Bangalore but, we have relocated to Agra (UP) now.....the FASS in Agra ......
.................................................. ........
I had no option but to leave the car and take a train back to Agra from Delhi with the family...........................................
.......................................
Have no idea what to do now.....Any suggestions most welcome !!
Upto this you have quoted sid77. And beyond that what the owner, sid77 had accepted as his mistake, you have not read or you have conveniently left out. I will quote for your and other's benefit. sid77 goes on and adds:-

Quote:
Originally Posted by sid77 View Post
I think I will go for the repairs...have to accept some responsibility for this as during the timing chain replacement there were debris in the oil as well....and the SA suggested to check the engine bearings as these might have scratches but, I ignored......the car seemed to work absolutely fine for the last two months ...so I thought my decision was correct....however in hindsight, we should have checked those bearings.......and I was wrong.....
It is unpardonable in engineering to find metal particles in the sump or in the filters and not investigate further. And hats off to sid77's honesty that he accepted that the SA advised him but he over ruled the SA. sid77, you are great.

In arunkk's case, there is still more than what meets the eye. arunkk's selective quotes from sid77 is further making me wonder. Either he did not grasp what sid77 is saying or he takes every one granted that we will not read through sid77. All through this thread, my suspicion was. there has been some foul up on the owner's side also but not getting spelt out. Rightly so, to protect his warranty issues. But that is over and at least now we can share the facts.
End of the day, we can wake up a sleeping person but not a guy who acts it out.
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Old 27th February 2015, 17:00   #161
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Default Re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

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Originally Posted by alavandar View Post
In arunkk's case, there is still more than what meets the eye. arunkk's selective quotes from sid77 is further making me wonder. Either he did not grasp what sid77 is saying or he takes every one granted that we will not read through sid77. All through this thread, my suspicion was. there has been some foul up on the owner's side also but not getting spelt out. Rightly so, to protect his warranty issues. But that is over and at least now we can share the facts.
End of the day, we can wake up a sleeping person but not a guy who acts it out.
I am sorry to disappoint you but there is nothing more to this story from my end. I didn't hide the fact that SA has recommended a timing chain change during the service which I ignored. But as was very obvious from many comments here that a timing chain failure cannot cause this catastrophic engine failure. So my major rant with fiat was to own up this responsibility of an untimely engine failure. Whatever it was due to, it happened within the extended warranty period. And you have to take my word when I say that I didn't do any oil mix up. Please understand that nobody in their right mind would intentionally damage his car and then ask for company to own up the responsibility and repair. And if that is so, I hope fiat technicians would have found this mixup from the drained out oil.

As with Sid's case, the SA has found some damages to the engine which he didn't check fully. But why did those damages occur in the first place within 60K kms? Does fiat has no responsibility for that?

Again I am re-iterating the fact that I was well within my recommended service interval. So if I had decided to take it for service may be a little later, it would have definitely resulted in a similar breakdown on the road. This is totally unacceptable for me and I value reliability far more than anything else for my car.

Last edited by arunkk : 27th February 2015 at 17:01.
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Old 1st March 2015, 10:32   #162
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Default Re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

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Originally Posted by alavandar View Post
I still think the entire truth is not out. I also own a fiat and my son had a fiat. I can vouch for fiat dealerships. All the while i did not want to state that but i sincerely feel you have not come out with the full story. Have you filled up oil on your own on high ways without realising you are mixing tow grades? Come on..out with it! Good luck with your Ciaz. Hope you treat it better based on your lessons learnt. poor shod who bought yout fiat. Hope he knows the history. By the way, my linea is 1 lakh plus without problems. Dealerships n Chennai both RDC and Ramkay are good. But if i fill up oil from wayside shops even they cannot help me.
So you can vouch for the Fiat Dealership which services Arun's car is it ?

He has treated his car like Fiat's service manual asks it to, what more do you want him to do ? Not everyone understands cars like the back of their hand the service intervals and parts changing schedules mentioned by the service station is the bible in this case. He has serviced it at the service station on time and that is good enough for the product to run like it should. Secondly, NO, mixing two grades will not cause what you say it will cause.

Check out this guy

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/long-t...venated-5.html (Maruti Dzire ZDi - 118000 kms & 5 years. EDIT: Rejuvenated!)

Mixing Mobil Delvac MX ( 15W 40) with Mobil 1 (0W-40). His car is 1 lakh 18 thousand kilometers old now.

PS: I thanked this post of yours by mistake.


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Originally Posted by alavandar View Post

You are talking out of ignorance. Please read my earlier write ups. When we mix synthetic or semi-synthetic oil and mineral oil, they form a terrible sludge, which can clog the oil path orifices leading to lubrication failure. I am a qualified mechanical and marine engineer of 35 years experience and can state this with confidence.
What's with the tone man? Secondly its not true, although its not a recommended practice and neither has ARUN done it, but if in some examples if it did happen, it won't cause what you are saying it will cause.

http://www.carbibles.com/engineoil_bible.html

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Originally Posted by alavandar View Post
In the 57000km failure case, looking at the photos posted, I am very sure that either the engine sump was topped up with mineral oil or by mistake with brake fluid (either at the dealership during servicing or later, when before the long trip the owner had done it on his own). If it was done at dealership, it is unlikely to take 1400 km for the failure to occur, without showing any symptoms. Imagine 1400 km is 35 hours of engine running (minimum) given the Bangalore traffic conditions and it is quite a lot of time.
Topping up with mineral oil not cause any damage. Brake fluid yes, but not mineral oil.

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Originally Posted by alavandar View Post

In arunkk's case, there is still more than what meets the eye. arunkk's selective quotes from sid77 is further making me wonder. Either he did not grasp what sid77 is saying or he takes every one granted that we will not read through sid77. All through this thread, my suspicion was. there has been some foul up on the owner's side also but not getting spelt out. Rightly so, to protect his warranty issues. But that is over and at least now we can share the facts.
End of the day, we can wake up a sleeping person but not a guy who acts it out.
He does not have to pass through your 'Sach Ka Saamna'.

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Originally Posted by arunkk View Post
I am sorry to disappoint you but there is nothing more to this story from my end. I didn't hide the fact that SA has recommended a timing chain change during the service which I ignored. But as was very obvious from many comments here that a timing chain failure cannot cause this catastrophic engine failure. So my major rant with fiat was to own up this responsibility of an untimely engine failure. Whatever it was due to, it happened within the extended warranty period. And you have to take my word when I say that I didn't do any oil mix up. Please understand that nobody in their right mind would intentionally damage his car and then ask for company to own up the responsibility and repair. And if that is so, I hope fiat technicians would have found this mixup from the drained out oil.

As with Sid's case, the SA has found some damages to the engine which he didn't check fully. But why did those damages occur in the first place within 60K kms? Does fiat has no responsibility for that?

Again I am re-iterating the fact that I was well within my recommended service interval. So if I had decided to take it for service may be a little later, it would have definitely resulted in a similar breakdown on the road. This is totally unacceptable for me and I value reliability far more than anything else for my car.
Enjoy your Ciaz. You had a bad experience, leave that behind. Kick some and light some fires. . Waiting for a thread to read about your new car.

Last edited by humyum : 1st March 2015 at 10:34.
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Old 1st March 2015, 22:20   #163
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Originally Posted by humyum View Post
He has treated his car like Fiat's service manual asks it to, what more do you want him to do?
As seen in Arun's case, all the servicing done was at the Fiat ASC and also as per schedule which IMO is good enough for any owner to follow.

It clearly is Fiat's fault which they aren't owning upto and not Arun's fault. They are not able to diagnose the issue out there.

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Originally Posted by humyum View Post
What's with the tone man? Secondly its not true, although its not a recommended practice and neither has ARUN done it, but if in some examples if it did happen, it won't cause what you are saying it will cause.
Quote:
Originally Posted by humyum View Post
Topping up with mineral oil not cause any damage. Brake fluid yes, but not mineral oil.
I agree on the brake fluid part but topping up with mineral oil will NOT damage the engine to seizure extent. But Alavandar says it will. Thanks to the link you posted it says it won't create havoc.

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He does not have to pass through your 'Sach Ka Saamna'.

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Old 2nd March 2015, 10:01   #164
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Default Re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

arunkk, congrats on your Ciaz and wish you a happy and trouble free ownership with Ciaz.

Regarding this issue, in my opinion a similar issue under different manufacturer would have also faced the same fate. These days, most of the authorized service stations don't sit and troulbleshoot the issue, they either go for replacement of parts under warranty or blame the customer for any abnormal use. In this case, if the timing chain was replaced as recommended by the SA, then I don't think Fiat would have tried to escape from this issue.

Generally if these dealers, wants to wash their hands off any issues, few things that they will check are,

- Was the car serviced on time?
- All routine recommendations done during the servicing?
- Any modifications done to the existing setup?
- Any observations/recommendations ignored? (I have seen MASS/FASS documenting their observations/recommendations in the jobcard)

If we are stuck on any of the above checks then it will be very difficult for us to justify ourselves unless we are very sound technically to explain/justify it to the manufacturer or have some good contacts.

And in case of any issues that we notice, even if its a minor rattling or any sound, its always better to report it and make sure that is entered in the job card/history as well. We never know what it may lead to.
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Old 2nd March 2015, 16:07   #165
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Default Re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

I have noted one thing though, that the Fiat service centre has refilled slightly lesser engine oil than what was in there previously before the oil change. The oil level on dipstick marker was higher when the car was brand new. It is just above the minimum mark now after the routine service oil change. Now if there is some amount of oil consumption that takes place then one is screwed. My feeling is that they are charging for 3.5 litres of oil and filling in only 3 or 2.5.
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