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Old 2nd March 2015, 16:51   #166
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Default Re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

So many things happened, I don't know why I have a feeling that there is some scam at Vecto. Let me put up my experience.

1. Gave my car for service and told them to check the front suspension which was sounding. I got a call saying the front suspension needs replacement. I denied and while driving the car back from Vecto I felt the pull to left was awful. I know my car's behavior in and out and could make that difference, clearly something was botched up.
Took my car to Pride cars and the person checked suspension and said the adjustment is royally screwed up. He readjusted it and my car is running absolutely fine, in a straight like a horse. Spent Rs. 800 versus 18k estimate by Vecto.

2. Another instance which humyum is also aware of it since he helped me out with that issue. I waded through water and my gear became very stiff. Sent my car to Vecto and got an estimate of 35k to replace the entire clutch and gear cable assembly. Told them to pack the car and send it back. Since the water had entered the clutch, the gear became hard. By that time the car came back, the water was expelled and the car was back to normal.

3. Long back when Vecto was prerana motors, I took my Palio to them for a normal service. They lifted the car and saw some leakage on the steering column. They told me to replace the steering column for 18k or it will go kaput. I drove my car without replacing the column for another 65k kms and sold the car without any issue.

4. During the last paid service they told me to replace the timer belt. Normal interval is 65k on a T-jet and my car has done only 45k. I asked them to show me the service manual from Fiat which reads that statement. After that they never brought up this topic knowing that I am a PIA.

Does these pointers ring any bell? Especially my botched up suspension adjustment which was all fine before I gave my car to Vecto. Certainly this would have led to some sever issue and Vecto could have royally said "Sir we had warned you" .. Non-sense.
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Old 3rd March 2015, 16:52   #167
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Default Re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

This is how you can rob a customer in India. Recently I had taken my Linea car for 60K service, I have asked not to do the wheel alignment and balancing. But when the bill came they charged for weights for balancing the wheel. I asked why this charge and they said they have done it and now they can only wave off the labor charges for balancing. so I paid and took the car, in next day I removed the wheel and checked for new weights but it s all the old weights only. So I called customer care and complained and the workshop cleanly gave back the money they took for weights. How they did now, but when I asked on the first time they say they cant do anything. This is how you can get robbed in India. So friends please take ultimate care when you give the car and take the car back from workshop. If you give a small chance they will rob you.
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Old 9th March 2015, 11:15   #168
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Default Re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

Quote:
Originally Posted by humyum View Post
So you can vouch for the Fiat Dealership which services Arun's car is it ?

Mixing Mobil Delvac MX ( 15W 40) with Mobil 1 (0W-40). His car is 1 lakh 18 thousand kilometers old now.

PS: I thanked this post of yours by mistake.
What's with the tone man? Secondly its not true, although its not a recommended practice and neither has ARUN done it, but if in some examples if it did happen, it won't cause what you are saying it will cause.

Topping up with mineral oil not cause any damage. Brake fluid yes, but not mineral oil.
Hi humyum, you thanked me correctly. And I vouched for Chennai dealerships and not Aruns.

And reading failed machinery is like forensic science. I have acquired that talent over 30 years. I do not have to stand before "sach ka saamna" to prove that and to say that blindly mixing mineral oils and synthetic oils can lead to break downs. I stand by what I said.

And neither I like the tone and tenor of your post yaar. So our feelings are mutual.

Please go thru this link below carefully, if you can:
Should Synthetics be Mixed with Mineral Oils?

http://www.machinerylubrication.com/...s-mineral-oils

I am quoting relevant paras from the above link for the benefit of all and those who thanked you for your wisdom:
"Polyalkylene glycol (PAG) b ases should not be mixed with any of the others unless specialized barrier fluids are used to minimize the incompatibility. When PAGs are mixed into other lubricants, you typically will get strong negative reactions (producing sludge and tacky residue) that require extra effort to flush, clean and correct.

Even if the base oils are compatible, there is the prospect that the additives used to create necessary performance properties could conflict, producing lost lubricant effectiveness."

I would like to add:
Whether the oils are synthetic or mineral, and whether thay are compatible , we can make out only from the catalogues or from reading the write ups on the container.

Those who changed over from Delvac M to Mobil1 synthetic would have done so after due flush through process and not have just topped up. In the case you have quoted, the oils were mixed (2 to 1)after double flush of the engine after due thought process, I presume , after checking compatibility.

And happy driving with whatever cars we drive and please let us take care of them. I know people who faced failures in not only diesel engines but also with reefer plants, air compressors etc after mixing synthetic and mineral oils.

Last edited by alavandar : 9th March 2015 at 11:44. Reason: to clarify
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Old 9th March 2015, 11:56   #169
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Default Re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

Quote:
Originally Posted by alavandar View Post

And reading failed machinery is like forensic science. I have acquired that talent over 30 years. I do not have to stand before "sach ka saamna" to prove that and to say that blindly mixing mineral oils and synthetic oils can lead to break downs. I stand by what I said.
Mike Cassaday, spokesperson for Suncor Energy, which operates Sunoco and Petro-Canada stations does not agree with you.

Link -->http://chemistry.about.com/b/2013/07...thetic-oil.htm

Neither does Mobile Oil Agree

--> http://chemistry.about.com/b/2013/07...thetic-oil.htm

Although no one mixes it anyway in India except this Dzire guy who's link I posted in my last post and his car has run a lakh plus kilometers without any problems. So no, I don't agree with you and lets leave it at that.



Quote:
Originally Posted by alavandar View Post
Those who changed over from Delvac M to Mobil1 synthetic would have done so after due flush through process and not have just topped up. In the case you have quoted, the oils were mixed (2 to 1)after double flush of the engine after due thought process, I presume , after checking compatibility.
Yes, but MIXED is the word here. Flushed or not, Delvac MX and Mobile 1 were mixed and the car was run for a lakh plus kilometer with this and did not cause any problems. Anyway, I never flush my car's EVER. Letting the engine oil exit from the sump drain for a good 15 to 20 minutes is good enough for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alavandar View Post
And happy driving with whatever cars we drive and please let us take care of them. I know people who faced failures in not only diesel engines but also with reefer plants, air compressors etc after mixing synthetic and mineral oils.
Happy driving.
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Old 9th March 2015, 12:39   #170
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Default Re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

Quote:
Originally Posted by humyum View Post
Mike Cassaday, spokesperson for Suncor Energy, which operates Sunoco and Petro-Canada stations does not agree with you.

Link -->http://chemistry.about.com/b/2013/07...thetic-oil.htm

Neither does Mobile Oil Agree

--> http://chemistry.about.com/b/2013/07...thetic-oil.htm

Although no one mixes it anyway in India except this Dzire guy who's link I posted in my last post and his car has run a lakh plus kilometers without any problems. So no, I don't agree with you and lets leave it at that.
It appears you have quoted two sources but it is the same blog by the same author.

From your own quote, from the same chemical PhD : "However, it is not recommended to routinely mix oils (means synthetic and other) because the additives in different products may interact or the oils may become destabilized by the mixture. You may reduce or negate the properties of the additives. You'll lose the benefits of the more expensive synthetic oil . So, adding regular oil to your special synthetic oil will mean you'll need to get your oil changed sooner than you would have otherwise. If you have a high performance engine, it's possible it will be displeased if the (expensive) additives can't work the way they are supposed to. This may not damage your engine, but it won't help its performance. "

Whereas I can quote many sources (one already I had given), which specifically mention not to mix synthetic and mineral (extraction from petroleum) oils. Many OEMs whom I have read (R/R. Scania, CAT- engine makers, Sperry compressors, reefer compressor makers) in their OEM manuals are against mixing synthetic and mineral oils or recommend to contact OEMs before doing such oil change. I have read their hard copy manuals on many ships and do not have them readily with me.

All said and done, I agree to disagree...and I will err on the safe side, if at all I am mistaken.

Happy driving and ownership.

Last edited by alavandar : 9th March 2015 at 12:43. Reason: simlie added
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Old 9th March 2015, 12:51   #171
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Default Re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

Quote:
Originally Posted by alavandar View Post
It appears you have quoted two sources but it is the same blog by the same author.

From your own quote, from the same chemical PhD : "However, it is not recommended to routinely mix oils (means synthetic and other) because the additives in different products may interact or the oils may become destabilized by the mixture. You may reduce or negate the properties of the additives. You'll lose the benefits of the more expensive synthetic oil . So, adding regular oil to your special synthetic oil will mean you'll need to get your oil changed sooner than you would have otherwise. If you have a high performance engine, it's possible it will be displeased if the (expensive) additives can't work the way they are supposed to. This may not damage your engine, but it won't help its performance. "

Whereas I can quote many sources (one already I had given), which specifically mention not to mix synthetic and mineral (extraction from petroleum) oils. Many OEMs whom I have read (R/R. Scania, CAT- engine makers, Sperry compressors, reefer compressor makers) in their OEM manuals are against mixing synthetic and mineral oils or recommend to contact OEMs before doing such oil change. I have read their hard copy manuals on many ships and do not have them readily with me.

All said and done, I agree to disagree...and I will err on the safe side, if at all I am mistaken.

Happy driving and ownership.
Oh my, I am sorry, I jumbled up the links

Here is the first link

--> http://www.wheels.ca/news/you-can-mi...ompany-expert/
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Old 12th March 2015, 16:51   #172
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Lightbulb Re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/long-t...ml#post3661857

Found this very related post from other Tbhp thread.

So this clears some iota of doubt realted to Fiat Diesel Engine - Its the same 1.3DDiS after all, right?

Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!-palio.jpg
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Old 12th March 2015, 20:50   #173
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Default Re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

Quote:
Originally Posted by svsantosh View Post
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/long-t...ml#post3661857

Found this very related post from other Tbhp thread.

So this clears some iota of doubt realted to Fiat Diesel Engine - Its the same 1.3DDiS after all, right?

Attachment 1348997
Thanks for the quote. And this gentleman, shajoshi is awesome. He had the presence of mind to m seal the leaks (caused by damage due to bad roads), to fill sump with soya oil and drove till safety! And it worked. Key factor is, he detected in time and thereafter with whatever oil he used, he did not push the engine to high revs. It worked for him. Hats off to him and the engine!
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Old 12th March 2015, 22:36   #174
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Default Re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

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Originally Posted by arun_josie View Post
Regarding this issue, in my opinion a similar issue under different manufacturer would have also faced the same fate. These days, most of the authorized service stations don't sit and troulbleshoot the issue, they either go for replacement of parts under warranty or blame the customer for any abnormal use..... .
I agree..I want to share my experience with Tata Motors (Concorde, Chennai), Jan/Feb 2007. The car was my brand new Indigo Marina, just done under 800 km but the timer belt drive pulley cone shaft key used to shear off, timing getting disturbed, check engine alarm followed by lot of smoke. On both occasions, all I felt was complete loss of power, black smoke and engine had a tendency to stall.
On first occasion I managed to drive myself straight to Concorde in second gear and occasional half clutch and brake. They replaced the half moon key in front of me, tightened the shaft end nut, checked the timing and handed over. The car was good.
In about next 400 km it happened again, engine stalled and I was not lucky to drive till Concorde. Had to call their on road assistance. They were really quick and the car reached the workshop. The car was admitted and I gave my peace of mind to the works manager and asked him to call me when they take up repair.
After two days he called me and asked me to come over. Along with him the engineer from Pune was also there and they could not figure what was wrong. When I had a close look, I found that the pulley shaft was straight cylinder and was not tapered. where as the pulley hole was tapered inside. So, basically all the forces were born by the half moon key and not by the mating surfaces. Any amount of tightening the cone nut will not help.
When I explained to them, they were skeptical. I asked them to open any old car where there is no such problem faced. They opened an older car and there you are! In that both the hole on pulley and the shaft end were tapered and the half moon key is only to locate the pulley and not for taking the rotating load.
After two days I took delivery.When I took delivery, the works manager told me that, Tata motors was getting ready to change the entire engine with a new one prior to locating the actual fault. I also heard from him that, there are not many Marina LX models, that too, no tomato red colour. According to him, my car had many differences under the hood, some good and some not so good.He thanked me in identifying the fault. And, needless to say, I was getting a VIP treatment in Concorde whenever I used to go with my Marina throughout my ownership. I did not face this problem till the end of my ownership (next 45000 km).
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Old 12th March 2015, 23:35   #175
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Default Re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

Quote:
Originally Posted by alavandar View Post
Thanks for the quote. And this gentleman, shajoshi is awesome. He had the presence of mind to m seal the leaks (caused by damage due to bad roads), to fill sump with soya oil and drove till safety! And it worked. Key factor is, he detected in time and thereafter with whatever oil he used, he did not push the engine to high revs. It worked for him. Hats off to him and the engine!
Its also blind luck. In my case, I had a pinhole leak which wasnt even losing oil but the diaphragm (?) itself was broken leading to the turbo getting busted on the spot. I didn't even restart the car - took it straight to the service center where the busted turbo was identified.

I'm not sure advising folks to follow his approach unless otherwise in mortal physical danger (say in a forest) is a prudent idea.
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Old 13th March 2015, 10:10   #176
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Default Re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

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Originally Posted by phamilyman View Post
Its also blind luck. In my case, I had a pinhole leak which wasnt even losing oil but the diaphragm (?) itself was broken leading to the turbo getting busted on the spot. I didn't even restart the car - took it straight to the service center where the busted turbo was identified.
From what you say, I think the pin hole leak is not from the sump but is probably from the oil pressure pipe leading to the turbocharger (please correct me if i am mistaken). In any diesel engines lub system, this as well as the TC lub oil return to sump pipes are the weakest links. If the former one leaks, the turbo will be starved of lubrication. If the latter one leaks, it will lead to loss of sump oil, low lub pressure and in worst case, engine seizure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phamilyman View Post
II'm not sure advising folks to follow his approach unless otherwise in mortal physical danger (say in a forest) is a prudent idea.
I agree. These juhad bandhi measures are taken only to mitigate a more severe situation. In normal course, best is to call the service chaps.

I will share my more recent experience with VW Jetta. Car had done 400 km. We were on Chennai - Thanjavur trip and stopped at Villupuram (about 140 km ) for breakfast. When I restarted the engine, I was observing a lot of white smoke from the exhaust. It was about 7 am and a Saturday or Sunday. No way I can contact VW MountRoad, Chennai.

Stopped the engine and called up VW road side assistance call centre. That guy asked location, placed me on map and told me that tow will be on the way soon to meet me. I was shocked. Asked him "It is really that bad ? Can I restart the engine and drive carefully, observe and report?" His answer was, that I am going against advise and it is at my risk. Then I told him, "Look, if the new car is giving such a lot of exhaust there has to be a reason. I know our conversation is recorded and you would like to put the risk and cost on me. But I simply refuse to accept it. If a brand new VW Jetta has to be towed, please tow it and I do not want this car back. Please keep it. I have not spent 23 L on road for towing away at 400 km. Please call a more knowledgeable person or supervisor". After few minutes, one technical guy came on line and asked for symptoms and we had a detailed discussion. We both agreed it is possible that the worst reason could be turbo oil seal leak and the best scenario is bad quality of fuel. He asked me to check engine oil level. Level was ok. Asked me to start and observe oil pressure alarm goes off, whether the smoke stops after some time etc. I restarted the engine and all were normal. He asked me to drive carefully and in case of recurrence of problem to call back the toll free. I did not face this issue again. Later I came to know from TBHP threads that it is possibly due to DPF (diesel particulates filters - correct me if I am wrong) regeneration and is common to many models of Audi-VW-Skoda family (Surprising that call centre guys or the tech expert on line did not show any knowledge of this). Now the car is 10000 km plus and no issues. Yes, the white smoke occurred once more for couple of minutes and stopped on its own.
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