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Old 11th October 2014, 13:57   #31
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Default re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

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Originally Posted by CliffHanger View Post
The service adviser misguided you.

Only Linea and Punto 90HP are supposed to have Timing belt changed at 60k mark, not the 75HP Punto.

The SA tried to cheat you by giving you a price quote for a part and asking you to replace that part that is covered under warranty.

You must sue Vecto Motors, or threaten suing them for trying to cheat you to replace something on your cost where ideally it should have been borne by the company.
The FIAT circular is to be taken with loads of salt. In fact, the circular mentioned only Linea MJD.

But there have been cases of failure of the timing chain in 75HP also, within 60k kms. Increased NVH, loss of FE and tinny noise at cold startup are the symptoms.

From what I have seen, timing chain develops slack either to due to driving style/usage/poor quality OEM.
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Old 11th October 2014, 14:29   #32
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Default re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

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Originally Posted by arunkk View Post
Extended warranty got over just a month back and thats why fiat is also not keen on this case. Yes they have added one line in the last invoice - Recommandation : Timing chain".

Also please find attached the pictures of the notorious timing chain as well as its pad. They showed me few scratches on the timing chain pad (seen in the pic). Can that be the root cause of all this damage?

I do not think that this alone may have caused the damage, tough to tell from pics. After your service at Vecto, did you get any chance to check the engine oil level at the dip stick? There have been cases where FASS has 'forgotten' to refill transmission oil after draining it. Also cases of over-filling and under-filling. If you had checked the level after service at some point of time, we can be sure that oil was for a fact, consumed by the engine.

A bad timing chain introduces foreign particles in the engine oil, that is for sure.

Since you are out of extended warranty, write to Fiat, they are quite generous with goodwill warranty. They may cover a part of your expenses.

Also, since they have recommended a timing chain change, they have an advantage and would blame it all on that, since you chose to wait. Like I said, I am through 2 timing chains for a mileage of 44k. So, we can never put a number to the longevity of it.
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Old 11th October 2014, 14:34   #33
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Default re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DRIV3R View Post
The FIAT circular is to be taken with loads of salt. In fact, the circular mentioned only Linea MJD.

But there have been cases of failure of the timing chain in 75HP also, within 60k kms. Increased NVH, loss of FE and tinny noise at cold startup are the symptoms.

From what I have seen, timing chain develops slack either to due to driving style/usage/poor quality OEM.
What is the point?

For Linea and 90HP Punto, the service manual recommends Timing belt replacement at 60k, for 75HP, it doesn't, hence comes under Warranty!
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Old 11th October 2014, 14:45   #34
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Default re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

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Originally Posted by CliffHanger View Post
What is the point?
I do not get yours either.

My point is, 75HP or 90HP, both have cases of timing chain failures before 60k kms.

Quote:
For Linea and 90HP Punto, the service manual recommends Timing belt replacement at 60k, for 75HP, it doesn't, hence comes under Warranty!
This is what the owner's manual says.

Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!-untitled.png
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Old 11th October 2014, 16:21   #35
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Default Re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

As some others have noted, there is no way the damage you report is caused by the timing chain. The service center seems terribly incompetent at finding the root cause of the problem. Take the matter up directly with Fiat. Make sure your email reaches the right inboxes as there are some folk who care at the higher levels.

If there are other Fiats requiring the change of such a critical component at as low as 30k kms, that says a lot about the lousy quality of timing chains Fiat is using. Timing chains are supposed to be stronger / more durable than timing belts.

Related threads:

1 (Fiat Linea 1.3L MJD - Timing Chain)

2 (Fiat Linea and Fiat Punto (90 BHP) Owners. Timing chain issue & recall)
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Old 11th October 2014, 17:14   #36
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Default Re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

Arun, I have some questions to you though I am aware that you are fed up answering questions.
Did they replace the engine oil during the service done at Bangalore? If yes there is room for a suspicion as to whether they had filled up to normal levels.
There is no engine oil level low warning but only low lube oil pressure warning lamp.
Another aspect to be ensured is to at least open and see beneath the bonnet once in a week and check up all the fluid levels.Remember that during good old days of Amby's engine oil and radiatoe water levels needed to be checked daily in the morning.

Second question. Did the timing chain snapped en-route to Trivandrum? Or is it that the engine started malfunctioning.

Take this up with FIAT at the highest level as GTO advised.
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Old 11th October 2014, 18:11   #37
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Default Re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DRIV3R View Post
I do not get yours either.

My point is, 75HP or 90HP, both have cases of timing chain failures before 60k kms.
In the former case, the company is responsible. I did not see you pointing it out anywhere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DRIV3R View Post

This is what the owner's manual says.

Attachment 1297778
His car was under 4 years when he took the car to service station, hence the timing belt wear is premature and the SA should have properly explained the repair and warranty procedure instead of cheating an unsuspecting customer with false information.


His audacity to write "Recommended: Timing chain" on the bill is a proof that he concealed information and cheated Arun.

Fiat has to carry the entire repair work at its own cost and should extend the warranty further to compensate for the Trauma created to Arun, the SA should be fired too and action should be taken against Vecto Motors.

Last edited by CliffHanger : 11th October 2014 at 18:35.
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Old 11th October 2014, 19:54   #38
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Default Re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
As some others have noted, there is no way the damage you report is caused by the timing chain. The service center seems terribly incompetent at finding the root cause of the problem. Take the matter up directly with Fiat. Make sure your email reaches the right inboxes as there are some folk who care at the higher levels.

If there are other Fiats requiring the change of such a critical component at as low as 30k kms, that says a lot about the lousy quality of timing chains Fiat is using. Timing chains are supposed to be stronger / more durable than timing belts.
Thanks GTO. I am following up with fiat and have sent mails to Mangesh Kondalkar as well. Till now I haven't received any positive response from anybody. The complaint I raised with fiat is closed stating timing belt problem. In the same mailing chain I have requested for an official statement on how timing belt problem can cause low engine oil levels and blowby.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rajeev k View Post
Arun, I have some questions to you though I am aware that you are fed up answering questions.
Did they replace the engine oil during the service done at Bangalore? If yes there is room for a suspicion as to whether they had filled up to normal levels.
There is no engine oil level low warning but only low lube oil pressure warning lamp.
Yes 60K service was a major one with engine oil as well as all filters replacement. I still strongly believe that they may not have filled engine oil. I learned it now that you should demand them to fill engine oil infront of you only.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rajeev k View Post
Second question. Did the timing chain snapped en-route to Trivandrum? Or is it that the engine started malfunctioning.

Take this up with FIAT at the highest level as GTO advised.
Timing chain didn't snap yet and I have attached its picture in one of the previous post. I felt reduced engine power while driving nearby Salem. Still it was not very serious and I just thought of getting it checked due to the night drive after that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CliffHanger View Post

His audacity to write "Recommended: Timing chain" on the bill is a proof that he concealed information and cheated Arun.

Fiat has to carry the entire repair work at its own cost and should extend the warranty further to compensate for the Trauma created to Arun, the SA should be fired too and action should be taken against Vecto Motors.
Thanks Cliffhanger for the support.

Update from my side : Today morning my friend who was at Vecto motors for his car service told me that my car is being pushed into the service bay. I got scared as I didnt authorize them to start any repair. I rushed there and enquired what is happening. The service adviser Kiran told me that he was going to open the engine and take pictures of timing chain and pads as requested by me. I stood there till they assembled everything back.

That was the time he gave me the repair estimate of 1.4 Lakhs. He wanted me to deposit 25K for them to start the repair. I told him that I may need some time to arrange the money. For the entire 1.4 lakhs I will need another month of time to arrange. He said he will charge parking fees for keeping the car there which will come to 300Rs per day !!

By evening I tow my car out of the service centre as I am afraid to keep it there with the kind of mails I am sending to fiat as well as my posts here.

Last edited by arunkk : 11th October 2014 at 20:01.
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Old 11th October 2014, 20:50   #39
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Default Re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

For all those people who in future will get the timing chain changed.


I have observed at the ASC the mischief mechanics do during the new chain install. They will change only the chain and not the cam sprocket and the crank sprocket. This will cause premature failure of the chain again in short span and it will cause far more damage to the engine if it does.

Usually they do it for two reasons.

1. To steal the sprockets and sell it outside.
2. To save time.


So please be careful and make sure either you or someone can oversee the new chain installation and they change the sprockets also. Inspect the sliders and if needed change them too.
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Old 11th October 2014, 20:55   #40
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Default Re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
If there are other Fiats requiring the change of such a critical component at as low as 30k kms, that says a lot about the lousy quality of timing chains Fiat is using. Timing chains are supposed to be stronger / more durable than timing belts.

Related threads:

1 (Fiat Linea 1.3L MJD - Timing Chain)

2 (Fiat Linea and Fiat Punto (90 BHP) Owners. Timing chain issue & recall)
Also as per these threads this timing chain was more like a recall from fiat due to whatever manufacturing defect they have found. Ideally such recalls should be done free of cost. May be that is the reason he told me the extended warranty is still valid though it was already a month after 4 years.
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Old 11th October 2014, 22:15   #41
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Default Re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

Quote:
Originally Posted by arunkk View Post
Also as per these threads this timing chain was more like a recall from fiat due to whatever manufacturing defect they have found. Ideally such recalls should be done free of cost. May be that is the reason he told me the extended warranty is still valid though it was already a month after 4 years.
Dear Arunkk,

I am extremely sorry to hear about this ordeal.

Since Maruti & Fiat share the same engine. Is it feasible to incorporate MGP of Swift and replace those in Punto in Aftermarket? I suppose that will be much cheaper option. Perhaps senior members will be in a better position to comment.

Amit
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Old 11th October 2014, 23:10   #42
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Default Re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

Sad to know about the engine failure. These days when we are going hi-tech with less of niggles and worries regarding maintenance of cars, such manufacturing defects and untimely, major breakdowns need to be taken very seriously and the manufacturer pulled up.

We were discussing about the life of the Fiat 1.3 MJD engine and engine failures about two years back in a thread here.

I could find another thread about engine overhaul @ 78,000 kms , though the car here is a Swift VDi with a similar engine:

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...8-000-kms.html (Maruti Swift 1.3L DDIS engine overhauled at only 78,000 kms!)
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Old 12th October 2014, 07:38   #43
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Default Re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

A very unfortunate incident.
Since SA bought this to your notice just before the warranty period ended, why didn't you insist for a replacement under warranty? Any ways, since this issue is noted by the SA in the service invoice, I think you should be able to get this covered by Fiat. But there is a very good chance that lack of oil caused this issue.

MASS or FASS, I always make sure that the oil change is done in front of my eyes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DRIV3R View Post
The FIAT circular is to be taken with loads of salt. In fact, the circular mentioned only Linea MJD.

But there have been cases of failure of the timing chain in 75HP also, within 60k kms. Increased NVH, loss of FE and tinny noise at cold startup are the symptoms.

From what I have seen, timing chain develops slack either to due to driving style/usage/poor quality OEM.
What kind of driving style/usage can cause this issue(early wear out of timing chain)? Can you please provide more information on this. Also, are you talking vibration on the run or is it while starting/stopping the engine?
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Old 12th October 2014, 08:18   #44
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Default Re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

Extended warranty covers the vehicle for a period of 50 months from date of purchase, so, 26 months after warranty of 2 years is over. Please check if you submitted the car to the workshop before the expiration date.

http://www.teamfiat.com/threads/exte...rd-parts.8078/

Quite a many details, which might be of help to you. Especially, the applicable period.

Last edited by lapis_lazuli : 12th October 2014 at 08:44.
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Old 12th October 2014, 08:44   #45
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Default Re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

As there was no snapping of the timing chain here one cannot attribute the damages to it. There is a definite reason to believe that oil scarcity was the causative factor here.
Even redressal through Consumer Forum is to be thought of; obtain legal advice in this regard.
Btb, is there any damage to the sprockets?
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