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Old 12th October 2014, 09:57   #46
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Default Re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

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Originally Posted by amitpunjani View Post
Dear Arunkk,

Since Maruti & Fiat share the same engine. Is it feasible to incorporate MGP of Swift and replace those in Punto in Aftermarket? I suppose that will be much cheaper option. Perhaps senior members will be in a better position to comment.

Amit
I will explore that option too. Right now the car is with me and wont take it back to FASS unless fiat is going to cover the expense.

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Originally Posted by arun_josie View Post
A very unfortunate incident.
Since SA bought this to your notice just before the warranty period ended, why didn't you insist for a replacement under warranty? Any ways, since this issue is noted by the SA in the service invoice, I think you should be able to get this covered by Fiat. But there is a very good chance that lack of oil caused this issue.
Even for replacement under warranty he was quoting 6.5K (without warranty 11.5K if I come after 2 weeks). But he wanted the car to be kept there for 2 days. I wanted the car back urgently and also he was not convincing enough that this is a needed replacement. I was just thinking that it was just another scam and so wanted to check it outside. Had he told me that its a recall part from fiat and engine failures happen very frequently because of this, I would have thought twice.

But SA noted only faulty timing chain. But now entire engine is damaged which they will not cover !

Quote:
Originally Posted by rajeev k View Post
As there was no snapping of the timing chain here one cannot attribute the damages to it. There is a definite reason to believe that oil scarcity was the causative factor here.
Even redressal through Consumer Forum is to be thought of; obtain legal advice in this regard.
Btb, is there any damage to the sprockets?
Yes remaining damage to engine is definitely caused by low engine oil. I have asked an official explanation linking timing chain to low engine oil. Till now I didnt get any reply for that. Whenever I get a reply I will post it here to get expert comments on that. I am not sure about sprocket damage. The engine is not yet completely opened. Only the bottom portion is opened and the damage is seen.

Last edited by arunkk : 12th October 2014 at 09:59.
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Old 12th October 2014, 10:02   #47
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Default Re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

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Originally Posted by arun_josie View Post

MASS or FASS, I always make sure that the oil change is done in front of my eyes.
Better safe than sorry, I always take my day off whenever am getting the car serviced, just can't trust the A.S.S folks.

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What kind of driving style/usage can cause this issue(early wear out of timing chain)? Can you please provide more information on this. Also, are you talking vibration on the run or is it while starting/stopping the engine?
Driving in extreme cold conditions, frequent stop-go traffic, idling for a long time is what the manual says. But I have noticed that generally spirited drivers who keep the revs high and max out whenever possible, get the timing chain issue sooner or later. I fall under this category. The NVH increases and you can feel it on the move, also a marginal drop in FE in tune of 1-2 kmpl. Start/Stop vibes would mostly be due to engine mounts going bad, our cars do not have hydraulic mounts, the C-mount is notorious for going bad prematurely.

Wonder what effort it takes for Fiat to fix the timing chain issues for the MJD which is otherwise a very reliable engine.

Last edited by DRIV3R : 12th October 2014 at 10:04.
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Old 12th October 2014, 11:31   #48
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Default Re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

Slightly off-topic: I too insist being right besides the car whenever it gets serviced. However, some dealers/service centers insist that as per policy, they don't allow owners into the service area. How do you guys tackle such situations?
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Old 12th October 2014, 12:43   #49
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Default Re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

dear arunkk,

there is absolutely no doubt in my mind, that any major issue coming right after a service, is solely due to some omission done knowingly or unknowingly during the service itself. Like when after a major operation a patient gets stomach pain most probably due to some gauge or needles or thread or scissors left inside the body by the surgeon and that is why there is a count of all disposables after surgery so that it is ensured that nothing is left inside.

Whenever this process is not followed through with rigour, we see examples of patients going into post-operative phase with stomach pain and then ultrasound reveals some kit inside the body which is then retrieved painfully, at the cost of the patient, with another operation solely to retrieve the stranded tool.

As mentioned before, a faulty timing chain would not have allowed you to stir out without the engine making a huge racket and that tinny noise would have been predominant. Either the service centre messed around with your original kit and replaced them with second-hand from some other car or they forgot some small nitty gritty which going through the service, either due to absent-mindedness or because the job was labour intensive and it was not lucrative enough monetarily to do the same.

However way you look at it, the fault is entirely Fiat's and that of the dealers.
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Old 12th October 2014, 14:00   #50
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Default Re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

Timing belt replacement is always about preventive maintenance than about repair. Its a rubber thing and is just 1 snap away to result in a set of mashed up valves and pistons. Because of its location, its often hard to inspect its condition from the top and even trained eyes get it wrong inspite of using a timing gun. That is the reason an early replacement is often recommended rather that wait for it to snap. The damage to the engine is far higher than cost of a new belt.

The fact that you took an uninformed decision to postpone the replacement has led you to this situation. Its not a fault of the engine, and since the mechs suggested you to replace, they get absolved from this too. Its the nature of the part. That is the reason I prefer engines with timing chains. They last the lifetime of the engine most of the time.

P

Last edited by prajwalkashyap : 12th October 2014 at 14:04.
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Old 12th October 2014, 14:49   #51
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Default Re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

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Originally Posted by riturajsharma19 View Post
Slightly off-topic: I too insist being right besides the car whenever it gets serviced. However, some dealers/service centers insist that as per policy, they don't allow owners into the service area. How do you guys tackle such situations?
I have been dealing with this crap since ages.
I simply tell them, its my car and i have the right to stand and get it serviced in front of my eyes; if they still give me the policy crap, i tell them, i will get my car serviced some where else, and this has worked everytime.
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Old 12th October 2014, 21:33   #52
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Default Re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

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Originally Posted by prajwalkashyap View Post
Timing belt replacement is always about preventive maintenance than about repair. Its a rubber thing and is just 1 snap away to result in a set of mashed up valves and pistons. Because of its location, its often hard to inspect its condition from the top and even trained eyes get it wrong inspite of using a timing gun. That is the reason an early replacement is often recommended rather that wait for it to snap. The damage to the engine is far higher than cost of a new belt.

The fact that you took an uninformed decision to postpone the replacement has led you to this situation. Its not a fault of the engine, and since the mechs suggested you to replace, they get absolved from this too. Its the nature of the part. That is the reason I prefer engines with timing chains. They last the lifetime of the engine most of the time.

P
The MJD has a timing chain only, not a timing belt.

The faulty timing chain is known to slacken and finally give up, when left unattended. Not sure if this pertains to a certain batch of cars, as Fiat tested an improved timing chain before the 2012 models were released.
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Old 12th October 2014, 23:04   #53
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Default Re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

I am not sure of the timing chain scratches on the pad causing this whole damage. Definitely, the 1.1 litre oil level was the culprit, however, not sure if timing chain had a say in the whole thing.

Also I am not sure if you started from Bangalore with just 1.1 litre of oil in the sump, guess the engine would have gone bust before you reached Salem, if that was the case.
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Old 13th October 2014, 08:23   #54
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Default Re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

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Originally Posted by prajwalkashyap View Post
Because of its location, its often hard to inspect its condition from the top and even trained eyes get it wrong inspite of using a timing gun. P
Could you explain how one uses a timing gun for inspecting the condition of the timing belt/chain?

Jeroen
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Old 13th October 2014, 10:13   #55
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Default Re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

Quote:
Originally Posted by prajwalkashyap View Post
Timing belt replacement is always about preventive maintenance than about repair. Its a rubber thing and is just 1 snap away to result in a set of mashed up valves and pistons. Because of its location, its often hard to inspect its condition from the top and even trained eyes get it wrong inspite of using a timing gun. That is the reason an early replacement is often recommended rather that wait for it to snap. The damage to the engine is far higher than cost of a new belt.

The fact that you took an uninformed decision to postpone the replacement has led you to this situation. Its not a fault of the engine, and since the mechs suggested you to replace, they get absolved from this too. Its the nature of the part. That is the reason I prefer engines with timing chains. They last the lifetime of the engine most of the time.

P
Hey, you can't inspect the timing belt with a timing gun, its for all together different purpose. His car did have a timing chain that the service station apparently claimed was the problem for all this fiasco.
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Old 13th October 2014, 10:37   #56
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Default Re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

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Originally Posted by DRIV3R View Post
The MJD has a timing chain only, not a timing belt.

The faulty timing chain is known to slacken and finally give up, when left unattended. Not sure if this pertains to a certain batch of cars, as Fiat tested an improved timing chain before the 2012 models were released.
Yes its a timing chain (pic in the previous page).
I was never told that it is a recall component from fiat. The SA was more talking like since you came within extended warranty you better replace it eventhough there is still more life left in this. (Even in extended warranty its not a free replacement). Also in the Salem service centre, they couldn't make out any timing chain noise !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeep View Post
I am not sure of the timing chain scratches on the pad causing this whole damage. Definitely, the 1.1 litre oil level was the culprit, however, not sure if timing chain had a say in the whole thing.

Also I am not sure if you started from Bangalore with just 1.1 litre of oil in the sump, guess the engine would have gone bust before you reached Salem, if that was the case.
I strongly suspect that is the case. But still I expected a engine oil level warning if oil level is too low. Again its my bad that I didn't check the oil levels after service and before the long drive.
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Old 13th October 2014, 15:47   #57
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Default Re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

I am a little confused here. The terms timing belt and chain are used in the same thread for similar engines. But they are two distinct different things, of course.

Also, note that timing belts typically runs dry, so I'm not sure sure there is a correlation to oil a such? I thought these Fiat Punto diesel have timing belts? With a spanner/tensioner roller mechanism. At least that's what I see when I look on European Forums?

I have worked over the years on multiple engines replacing chains and or belt. Om most cars/engines it is not the chain or the belt, but the tensioner that tends to be the real culprit. There is usually not that much you can measure to check. You tend to go by manufacturer recommendation on mileage. Sometimes the (position of) tensioner can be an indication. On chains sometimes you can actually find measurements in the workshop manual on chain length. Sprockets might give indication of wear and tear too.

Especially the chain version often used to come with tensioners which are essentially just guides over wich the chain is run. They push the chain by means of spring and or hydraulic force. Need proper lubrications and on some cars these guides have proven prone to cracking. (Several Jaguar engines suffered from this before they managed to fix it permanently.)

Many car manufacturers require you to change both at the same time, sometimes you need to change the tensioners more often than the chain/belt.

On the upside, it is pretty rare to see real problems on the timing chain/belt. But when you do, it often leads, very quickly to catastrophic results.

Jeroen

Jeroen

Last edited by Jeroen : 13th October 2014 at 15:51.
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Old 13th October 2014, 18:27   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arunkk

I strongly suspect that is the case. But still I expected a engine oil level warning if oil level is too low. Again its my bad that I didn't check the oil levels after service and before the long drive.
Hey, the oil light is actually the oil pressure light. It will not show you less amount of engine oil, it will show you lack of oil pressure. In your case 1.1 liter engine oil is enough to trigger the oil pressure switch which will not allow the oil pressure light on the dashboard to be switched on. Hence you did not notice the oil light. There are many reasons for the oil pressure light coming on, oil pressure switch being faulty is usually the most common. But whatever the reason, oil light aaya, car engine should be stopped ASAP.
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Old 13th October 2014, 19:27   #59
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Originally Posted by humyum View Post
Hey, the oil light is actually the oil pressure light. It will not show you less amount of engine oil, it will show you lack of oil pressure.

Correct, there are very few cars with a oil level indication. Of all the cars Ive owned I can remember only, a Renault. It had a combined oil temperature / level gauge. When you put the ignition on it would indicate the oil level, as soon as you started the engine it would indicate oil temperature. Simple gauge with a green, yellow and red zone.

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Old 13th October 2014, 20:37   #60
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Default Re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

Once my GTX's timing tensioner broke will driving and there was loud clattering noise from engine. Managed to drive 0.5 kms to my home and got it towed to a mechanic to get it changed, it didn't cause much damage to the engine. This in-spite of a broken tensioner, since you mentioned the timing chain is intact, I don't think it can cause an entire engine to get blown.

If engine oil is low, shouldn't the engine temperature rise before it blows up? Can a blown turbo be the cause of engine damage(no lubrication to turbo)?
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