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Old 13th October 2014, 20:54   #61
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Default Re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

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Originally Posted by humyum View Post
Hey, the oil light is actually the oil pressure light. It will not show you less amount of engine oil, it will show you lack of oil pressure. In your case 1.1 liter engine oil is enough to trigger the oil pressure switch which will not allow the oil pressure light on the dashboard to be switched on. Hence you did not notice the oil light. There are many reasons for the oil pressure light coming on, oil pressure switch being faulty is usually the most common. But whatever the reason, oil light aaya, car engine should be stopped ASAP.
Then what is the user of this indicator if it cannot given warning even before the engine is damaged so badly?

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Originally Posted by nim_peter View Post
Once my GTX's timing tensioner broke will driving and there was loud clattering noise from engine. Managed to drive 0.5 kms to my home and got it towed to a mechanic to get it changed, it didn't cause much damage to the engine. This in-spite of a broken tensioner, since you mentioned the timing chain is intact, I don't think it can cause an entire engine to get blown.

If engine oil is low, shouldn't the engine temperature rise before it blows up? Can a blown turbo be the cause of engine damage(no lubrication to turbo)?
Any damage to the turbo is still not known. But since the oil level was so low, I am expecting the turbo also to have blown. Still the engine will start fine if oil is filled. Didn't drive it after that to check if the turbo is fine or not.

Last edited by arunkk : 13th October 2014 at 20:57.
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Old 13th October 2014, 21:13   #62
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Default Re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

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Originally Posted by arunkk View Post
Then what is the user of this indicator if it cannot given warning even before the engine is damaged so badly?
If you read your user manual you will notice that it will says something along the lines of stop you car and switch of the engine immediately after this light list up.

As long as you react swiftly you would be fine. But in addition, that's why (nearly) all our cars are equipped with dip sticks and its good practice to check your oil level on a regular basis. Your oil will be low on the dipstick long before the oil pressure indicator shows up.

There are only two reasons why the low oil pressure warning light will come on. One, as suggested earlier a faulty switch/sensor. The other reason is.........wait for it, low oil pressure!!

There could be multiple reasons though why you have low oil pressure, but they all light up the same little red light on your dashboard. The reason is not relevant, you should always try to stop immediately and switch of your engine.

Jeroen
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Old 13th October 2014, 22:58   #63
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Default Re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

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Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
Correct, there are very few cars with a oil level indication. Of all the cars Ive owned I can remember only, a Renault. It had a combined oil temperature / level gauge. When you put the ignition on it would indicate the oil level, as soon as you started the engine it would indicate oil temperature. Simple gauge with a green, yellow and red zone.

Jeroen
Yes, true. If only they had that in all cars, it would be right in front of the driver, hardly any chance of anything being ignored then.

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Originally Posted by nim_peter View Post

If engine oil is low, shouldn't the engine temperature rise before it blows up? Can a blown turbo be the cause of engine damage(no lubrication to turbo)?
Low oil level will cause a lot of friction, before the temperature rise occurs things would have 'the ended'.

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Originally Posted by arunkk View Post
Then what is the user of this indicator if it cannot given warning even before the engine is damaged so badly?
The oil pressure light switching on itself is a danger sign. For example, when they change your engine oil, observe carefully. After they refill it with a change in oil filter, it will take 5 to 7 seconds before the oil light goes off from the dashboard. That is because the oil filter is new and the oil pump has to fill the oil filter first and then the circulation begins. Oil filters have an anti drain back valve which once filled, will retain some oil in them so the refilling does not entirely have to happen again. That is the reason when you start the car the first thing in the morning, the oil light does not remain on for that long as it did when you changed the oil and oil filter.

And I think an oil check is in order once in a week, and 100% check it after a service so that you know that they have not overfilled, underfilled etc etc.

Anyway, what is done is done, ask fiat to do your engine up or preferably give you a new engine. It's the service station's fault you can't help it. The timing chain was not broken so that is not at fault for causing this to your engine, If a Fiat engineer tries to prove it otherwise, give me a shout, I ll teach some engineering to them on the phone


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Originally Posted by arunkk View Post
Any damage to the turbo is still not known. But since the oil level was so low, I am expecting the turbo also to have blown. Still the engine will start fine if oil is filled. Didn't drive it after that to check if the turbo is fine or not.
The bearings in the turbo are lubricated by the engine oil, they are finished with all that driving that happened with such low oil.
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Old 14th October 2014, 11:10   #64
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Default Re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

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Originally Posted by humyum View Post
Anyway, what is done is done, ask fiat to do your engine up or preferably give you a new engine. It's the service station's fault you can't help it. The timing chain was not broken so that is not at fault for causing this to your engine, If a Fiat engineer tries to prove it otherwise, give me a shout, I ll teach some engineering to them on the phone
From all the expert opinions I have got, the timing chain issue has never been linked to low engine oil level. Timing chain is the convenient scrapegoat here. Anyway I got a reply from Mangesh Kodalkar from fiat saying that they will look into my issue and revert back soon. Thats the last hope I am having from fiat and hoping to see fiat taking some efforts for customer satisfaction and their brand credibility.
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Old 14th October 2014, 11:58   #65
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Default Re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

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Originally Posted by arunkk View Post
From all the expert opinions I have got, the timing chain issue has never been linked to low engine oil level. Timing chain is the convenient scrapegoat here. Anyway I got a reply from Mangesh Kodalkar from fiat saying that they will look into my issue and revert back soon. Thats the last hope I am having from fiat and hoping to see fiat taking some efforts for customer satisfaction and their brand credibility.
Arun, lets hope for a respite here. One more reason for staying away from Fiat. You may make great cars, but what if you cannot provide honest and proper service for them? To me it comes as a package; Your vehicle and the service experience. You mess up one one front, that spoils the ownership experience.

OT - I was speaking to my Ford SA a while back, according to him, the timing belt/chain has warranty that covers it upto 1 lac Kms.
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Old 14th October 2014, 12:42   #66
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Default Re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

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Originally Posted by arunkk View Post
From...
As I said already, you are at NO fault.

The engine fails in the warranty period and the company is responsible to repair it back to its original condition.

Just because the SA writes something on the service bill doesn't entitle him or his company to be devoid of the responsibility.

If the SA identifies a problem, it is his job to give the full and exact details about the problem along with the timeline for the job to be carried out. He didn't do that and you are not responsible to carry out his incomplete and unsubstantiated imaginations, because your car was under warranty.

Fiat might come up with a 50:50 on the repair cost. Please don't accept any such crap.

FIAT IS ENTIRELY RESPONSIBLE TO CARRY OUT THE REPAIR JOB AT ITS OWN COST. ALSO IT NEEDS TO GIVE YOU AN AT LEAST 6 MONTHS POST REPAIR WARRANTY.

Last edited by CliffHanger : 14th October 2014 at 12:49.
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Old 14th October 2014, 14:21   #67
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Default Re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

Arun, like many of the other folks have said earlier! Please understand one thing that yours is not a "Timing chain" related issue.

A timing chain does only 1 thing, rotate the cam and the crank in harmony along with the oil and the water pump!

There can be only 2 issues with the timing chain,

1. It fails, meaning it snaps: If it fails while your car is running, you would have heard amazing metallic bang sounds and the engine would have literally been in pieces (Since its a diesel engine, interference type)
2. It gets loose to a point where it jumps a teeth: Again in this case you would feel weird while driving the car, loss or gain of power or say tata bye bye to the engine with the amazing sounds. Generally, its the job of the tensioner pulley to maintain adequate slack. It is very difficult for it to jump off on an engine unless the tensioner pulley broke off or something else happened! The metal chains don't stretch to such an extent that the chain jumps off!

In your case it was none of the above.

To have smoke coming out of your dip stick hole is having huge amount of pressure in you crankcase. In some of the cases it also happens due to a blown head gasket. Basically I mean, there is a huge amount of positive pressure which is being vented out from your dip stick hole, in short, having a massive blow by! Again it cannot be a timing chain related issue!

As pointed by people here, low oil pressure light comes on when the oil pressure drops "BEYOND THE MINIMUM OIL PRESSURE REQUIRED TO LUBRICATE THE ENGINE" So if they drained out 1.1L of oil from your engine after god only knows how much of oil did it burn before you reached the service center! That means that the engine had more than 1.1L of oil when you left. How can it be your fault!! Also from where did the theory of having less oil come from? The pressure is an indicator itself that your engine was burning oil! Not breaking the timing chain!LOL!

It's easier said than done that people should check the oil level and all that when they are taking delivery of their cars from a ASS. If I were in your position I would have ripped the SA and whoever had the audacity to tell me that all this happened due to a timing chain issue.

If the owners manual says that the timing chain "has to be" replaced by say xxx km's and then if you hadn't changed it, I would agree that you could have been blamed only if it were a timing chain related failure. In your case I believe that you had not reached the prescribed km's specified from your car's manufacturer to change the timing chain, which should have been a trigger that it is a premature failure aka manufacturing defect!

Just because some SA mentioned on the Job card that the timing chain replacement is recommended, does not mean that this failure was your fault! It could have been had the timing chain snapped or something.. Its like me recommending you to maintain say 32psi of air pressure in your tires and then once someone bangs your stationary car, blame you for it! lol!

All in all, please ensure that FIAT warrants your engine, it is a 100% fault from their side.

Last edited by ssjr0498 : 14th October 2014 at 14:31.
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Old 14th October 2014, 15:04   #68
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Default Re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

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Originally Posted by CliffHanger View Post
If the SA identifies a problem, it is his job to give the full and exact details about the problem along with the timeline for the job to be carried out. He didn't do that and you are not responsible to carry out his incomplete and unsubstantiated imaginations, because your car was under warranty.
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Originally Posted by ssjr0498 View Post
It's easier said than done that people should check the oil level and all that when they are taking delivery of their cars from a ASS. If I were in your position I would have ripped the SA and whoever had the audacity to tell me that all this happened due to a timing chain issue.
Thanks guys for the support. Its not only the SA but the official from fiat who was handling my case also gave me the same reason for closing my complaint. Below is the official reply I got for closing my complaint by Mr. Ramesh Gandi of fiat india.

---------------------------------------------
Dear Mr. Arun,

We have gone through your mail and verified the service history details.

Your vehicle date of sale is 28/7/2014 and now vehicle is out of warranty. Any repairs will not come under warranty purview.

When your vehicle was reported to service on 13/9/2014 @ 55802kms, dealer team has informed you about the timing chain noise and need the replacement of the Timing chain, But you have not given any approval of replacement of timing chain and the same is mentioned in the service invoice copy also.

It is very clear the failure of the engine due to the timing chain failure and consequential of timing chain failure. The timing chain is a mechanical part, so it will not give any indication in the cluster if the part is failure.

If you would have replaced the timing chain during the problem noticed, Now the engine failure wouldn’t have happened.

The problems may come in the vehicle because it is a assembly of many parts. We always suggest the customers to report to the dealers if any abnormality noticed in the vehicle.

In your vehicle the abnormality ( Timing Chain Noise) was noticed but you have not given any approval for replacement. So the product should not be blamed.
---------------------------------------------------

Here again everyone is conveniently ignoring my other symptoms like engine oil level and blowby.

Last edited by arunkk : 14th October 2014 at 15:07.
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Old 14th October 2014, 15:11   #69
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Default Re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

Arun, it now depends how you want to take it further!

Write to the authorities higher up and threaten to sue them in court! There is no way that a timing chain noise can cause this! Remind them about the blow by and the other symptoms and ask them to tell you how can a timing chain noise cause this!!

If they have a Facebook page then raise the concern their as well! Use the social media to get their attention!

Forget everything else, scan the page of your owners manual where it shows that on your version of the Punto the timing chain replacement when you took your car to the service center was not a mandatory job!

Ask them to explain this to you or face you in the court!

This is ridiculous!

Last edited by ssjr0498 : 14th October 2014 at 15:13.
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Old 14th October 2014, 15:15   #70
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Default Re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

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Originally Posted by arunkk View Post
From all the expert opinions I have got, the timing chain issue has never been linked to low engine oil level. Timing chain is the convenient scrapegoat here. Anyway I got a reply from Mangesh Kodalkar from fiat saying that they will look into my issue and revert back soon. Thats the last hope I am having from fiat and hoping to see fiat taking some efforts for customer satisfaction and their brand credibility.
Arun,

I'm sorry to hear about your plight. I can understand the huge financial burden an out of turn engine rebuild can cause, especially in case of modern turbo diesels. Now, let me articulate a new line of thought.

Once upon a time, when Mr. Enrico Atanasio, was helming Fiat in India, I did this particular story-> http://www.indiancarsbikes.in/cars/f...2-india-57195/.

Back then, some elements tried to hustle me into taking down my story, promising a direct line to Mr. Atanasio. I stood my ground. Long story short, timing chain failures on Fiat's 90 HP Diesel models were a distinct reality then, and if Fiat hasn't done anything to change this, they could still be a bugbear now.

Since the Multijet unit is an interference type of engine, the designers have cleverly engineered a safety redundancy so far as the timing chain snapping/losing tension is concerned. This redundancy limits engine damage by allowing the rocker arms to give in, thereby preventing the valves from meeting the piston. The low oil cannot be explained by any timing chain issue. That, imho, is your defence. Fiat India's management is much more receptive to customers now. Hold your ground. They should step in and sort things out.

Cheers,

Jay

Last edited by JayPrashanth : 14th October 2014 at 15:19.
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Old 14th October 2014, 20:39   #71
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Default Re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

A couple of questions:
What is the difference between the 90 bhp and 75 bhp quadrajet engines valvetrainwise?
At the design stage, one chooses a chain rather than a belt so that it lasts as long as the engine itself. In other countries (Europe) is the same replacement interval quoted for timing chain in the 90 bhp quadrajet?

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Old 15th October 2014, 10:00   #72
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Default Re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

I got the much awaited reply from Mangesh Kodalkar from fiat and sadly there is not much positive response. He is still blaming it on the timing chain. Even after asking the reason for low engine oil level and engine blowby multiple times in the same mail thread, everyone conveniently skips that part and comes back to engine damage due to timing chain. He is offering 25% discount on part and labor cost which is not acceptable for me. Below is his mail -

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Sir ,
Regret the delay in responding to communication .
We have checked for details at our dealership , we understand when your car last reported 13-Sept at Vecto Fiat workshop , team has recommended to get the job done for affected part of timing chain & related parts ( car was then under extended warranty – attachments for reference ) , as per update shared workshop team, you conveyed that you did not leave the car at workshop & took the delivery without replacing the affected parts .
Since the jobs were not carried in time affected parts ( timing chain )started damaging you rest of engine parts ( conquentional damages ).
Under such situation the engine is bound to have major damages, that are already shown to you by workshop team .

As a very special case we extend gesture of goodwill of 25 % on affected parts NDP & dealer will extend 25% discount on labor from his end .We request your approval confirmation to Vecto team .
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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Old 15th October 2014, 10:25   #73
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Default Re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

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Originally Posted by arunkk View Post
I got the much awaited reply from Mangesh Kodalkar from fiat and sadly there is not much positive response. He is still blaming it on the timing chain. Even after asking the reason for low engine oil level and engine blowby multiple times in the same mail thread, everyone conveniently skips that part and comes back to engine damage due to timing chain. He is offering 25% discount on part and labor cost which is not acceptable for me. Below is his mail -

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Sir ,
Regret the delay in responding to communication .
We have checked for details at our dealership , we understand when your car last reported 13-Sept at Vecto Fiat workshop , team has recommended to get the job done for affected part of timing chain & related parts ( car was then under extended warranty attachments for reference ) , as per update shared workshop team, you conveyed that you did not leave the car at workshop & took the delivery without replacing the affected parts .
Since the jobs were not carried in time affected parts ( timing chain )started damaging you rest of engine parts ( conquentional damages ).
Under such situation the engine is bound to have major damages, that are already shown to you by workshop team .

As a very special case we extend gesture of goodwill of 25 % on affected parts NDP & dealer will extend 25% discount on labor from his end .We request your approval confirmation to Vecto team .
-----------------------------------------------------------------
I think the higher ups at FIAT are DIZZY. Timing chain making a noise is not equal to timing chain BREAKING, yours did not even make a noise in the first place, otherwise you would have heard it. So timing chain was NEVER AN ISSUE. PERIOD.

Secondly, the oil engine was the ONLY ISSUE, exponential wear and tear occurred because of it and it is the cause of engine failure.

Give me a call when you meet a Fiat Engineer, I ll be happy to talk to him.
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Old 15th October 2014, 10:28   #74
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Default Re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

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Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
In other countries (Europe) is the same replacement interval quoted for timing chain in the 90 bhp quadrajet?
That's a very good question that occurred to me as well - and I'm not aware of a replacement interval of the timing chain in the 90 hp engines in Europe.

I've attached the service advisory from FIAT ( courtesy TFI ) that mandated the timing chain change in 2012. This change was NOT part of the scheduled service when the Linea was introduced in India in 2009. When 2009 cars started reaching around 60k in 2012 and the chain started to fail, FIAT conveniently introduced this as part of the scheduled service.

So the only conclusion can be that the timing chain used in India by FIAT is of poorer quality than that used in Europe.
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Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!-service-bulletin.jpg  


Last edited by sdp1975 : 15th October 2014 at 10:31.
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Old 15th October 2014, 10:39   #75
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Default Re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

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That's a very good question that occurred to me as well - and I'm not aware of a replacement interval of the timing chain in the 90 hp engines in Europe.

I've attached the service advisory from FIAT ( courtesy TFI ) that mandated the timing chain change in 2012. This change was NOT part of the scheduled service when the Linea was introduced in India in 2009. When 2009 cars started reaching around 60k in 2012 and the chain started to fail, FIAT conveniently introduced this as part of the scheduled service.

So the only conclusion can be that the timing chain used in India by FIAT is of poorer quality than that used in Europe.
Its evidently a manufacturing defect from fiat. In that case why are they asking customers to pay up? They should have issued a recall for all the affected models and should have done it free of cost.
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