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Old 20th October 2014, 18:27   #106
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Default Re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

Quote:
Originally Posted by arunkk View Post
Update:
the timing chain, is still perfect and there is no visible damage to it as per the technician.
So it's amply obvious that the analysis of the Fiat ASC was completely incorrect .

Several bhp-ians had pointed out from the symptoms that the cause of the engine failing was low engine oil and not the timing chain, whereas the ASC had the car with them and could not make the right conclusions !!!

Really depressing to say the least. Don't have the courage to recommend a Fiat to others the way this issue was handled. This thread is a PR mess for Fiat.

Anyways, I'm sure your car will be in good shape soon. Do keep us updated on the progress.
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Old 22nd October 2014, 16:19   #107
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Default Re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

The detailed breakup of engine overhaul cost is as below.

Sl. No. Part Name Numbers Amount
1 Connecting road 4 4900
2 Timing chase 1 1160
3 Oil seal 3 800
4 Engine oil 3.6lts 2200
5 Oil filter 1 260
6 Coolant 1lts 350
7 Gear oil 2.8lts 1600
8 Heater plug 1800
9 Tiny adjester 2600
10 Gasket kit 01kit 3500
11 Sleeve 4500
12 Piston 9800
13 Piston rings 4900
14 Main Bearing 2450
15 Connecting bearing 3200
16 Gudgeon Pin 950
17 Valve 4950
18 Stem seal 1200
19 Guide 1300
20 Valve seat 2500
21 Oil seal 1950
22 Thrust washer 1800

Lathe Charges 8500
Engine overhaul charge 6000
A/C gas charge 3500

Total 76670

Also there is an added charge for repairing the turbo (~10K)

All the parts described are from MGP which costs less compared to Fiat (As per workshop guy's opinion). Please give expert opinions on the cost breakup above as well as any pros and cons of going with Maruti parts. As per my knowledge there is absolutely no difference between these two engines.
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Old 22nd October 2014, 16:28   #108
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Default Re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

From the parts list above, what exactely is required for your engine? Do you know the exact reason for your engine damage ?

I don't think you need con rods and heater plug unless damaged. So goes for the head valves and stuff. Diesel engine are build quite strongly due to the nature of the engine so not sure you really require everything from the above.


Ask for the price of the half block. It might come out cheaper in total. I just don't trust the workmanship of the lathe shops in India and they can never get the cleareances right for the rings.

Last edited by Randhawa : 22nd October 2014 at 16:33.
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Old 22nd October 2014, 16:29   #109
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Default Re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

Hello Arun,

My Ertiga DDiS engine was overhauled at MASS, Vellore in Sep 2012 and the total cost was about 75k. So I think the quoted prices for your case are fine. Right now I cannot locate the bill with complete break-up of charges. If I find it I will post the numbers.

It is indeed surprising that MGP costs are less than Fiat.

regards,
Mohan.

Last edited by mohan41 : 22nd October 2014 at 16:33.
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Old 22nd October 2014, 17:34   #110
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Default Re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randhawa View Post
From the parts list above, what exactely is required for your engine? Do you know the exact reason for your engine damage ?

I don't think you need con rods and heater plug unless damaged. So goes for the head valves and stuff. Diesel engine are build quite strongly due to the nature of the engine so not sure you really require everything from the above.
What happened is due to lack of lubrication, one of the crankshaft got jammed causing it to hit against the valve thereby damaging the valve and connecting rod. Other 3 cylinders are fine. Since this can be purchased only as a set, all 4 are getting replaced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randhawa View Post
Ask for the price of the half block. It might come out cheaper in total. I just don't trust the workmanship of the lathe shops in India and they can never get the cleareances right for the rings.
Engine half block is costing around 50K which brings the total price much higher. Also in the lathe, only the cylinder sleeve is removed and replaced with a new one which should not cause much issues as per the mechanic.
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Old 22nd October 2014, 18:59   #111
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Default Re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mohan41 View Post
Hello Arun,

My Ertiga DDiS engine was overhauled at MASS, Vellore in Sep 2012 and the total cost was about 75k. So I think the quoted prices for your case are fine. Right now I cannot locate the bill with complete break-up of charges. If I find it I will post the numbers.

It is indeed surprising that MGP costs are less than Fiat.

regards,
Mohan.
Why would your Ertiga need an engine overhaul so soon? Wasn't it under warranty ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by arunkk View Post
The detailed breakup of engine overhaul cost is as below.

Total 76670

Also there is an added charge for repairing the turbo (~10K)

All the parts described are from MGP which costs less compared to Fiat (As per workshop guy's opinion). Please give expert opinions on the cost breakup above as well as any pros and cons of going with Maruti parts. As per my knowledge there is absolutely no difference between these two engines.
MGP parts should be fine, Engine are the same except for the state of tune and the way the gear box ratios are configured.

Cant you source a used engine from some crashed car? wont that work out easier?
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Old 22nd October 2014, 19:24   #112
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Default Re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

So finally they accepted the fact that the engine damage was due to lack of lubrication
Quote:
Originally Posted by arunkk View Post
Engine half block is costing around 50K which brings the total price much higher. Also in the lathe, only the cylinder sleeve is removed and replaced with a new one which should not cause much issues as per the mechanic.
If you are retaining the car for few more years i would suggest buying half block. From the price of parts you have posted the difference between new half block (50K as per your price) and the resleeve option is Rs17500/- which is not a huge amount considering you get a factory assembled block which is as good as a new engine. Resleeving etc can be satisfactory if done right but it depends a lot on the machinist, preparation, equipment used etc. A poorly done resleeving job will have you spend a similar amount down the line on another repair job.

The following items from your parts list above comes with the half block. Plus the lathe charges will should go down as well.

Connecting rod--4900
Sleeve--4500
Piston--9800
Piston rings--4900
Main Bearing--2450
Connecting rod bearing--3200
Gudgeon Pin--950
Thrust washer--1800
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Old 22nd October 2014, 19:37   #113
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Default Re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

Quote:
Originally Posted by arunkk View Post
What happened is due to lack of lubrication, one of the crankshaft got jammed causing it to hit against the valve thereby damaging the valve and connecting rod. Other 3 cylinders are fine. Since this can be purchased only as a set, all 4 are getting replaced.

You can buy just one connecting rod. My friend was able to so you can as well. Just need to try hard.

Engine half block is costing around 50K which brings the total price much higher. Also in the lathe, only the cylinder sleeve is removed and replaced with a new one which should not cause much issues as per the mechanic.
I have seen enough re-builds so I can say that the lathe work is never as good as OEM. It will cost you about 20k extra and I can tell you that it will be worth it in long run. Make sure the lathe workshop does not grind the head down unless it's warped which I doubt would have happened. If they do then you will never have the smoothness of a new engine as Fiat does not supply with a oversize head gasket to get the original compression.

For Turbo, get it repaired only if you can get the genuine re-build kit from the manufacturer. Otherwise you will have issues sooner or later.
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Old 22nd October 2014, 20:00   #114
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Default Re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

Sorry missed this

Quote:
Originally Posted by arunkk View Post
Also there is an added charge for repairing the turbo (~10K)
You can buy brand new turbo from the OEM supplier (Turbo Energy Limited) for 12600MRP, so they (TEL) should be able to repair your turbo for much lower than 10K

http://www.turboenergy.co.in/after-m...ce-center.html
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Old 24th October 2014, 21:11   #115
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Default Re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

Quote:
Originally Posted by arunkk View Post
Sorry I don't have all the pictures. Please find few of the pics attached which shows scoring on crankshaft and its bearing.
Thanks for the photos. As I stated earlier in my posting, the catastrophic failures is due to compromised lubrication. The scoring of the crank pin and the bearing shells clearly indicate failure of sustainable lubrication film when the engine was operating. This may happen when the viscosity of oil goes down due to contamination of lub oil or mixing of mineral and synthetic oil grades. And the severe pitting marks on the crank pin indicates contamination of lub oil with corrosive substances.

I sincerely suspect some moron has filled either brake fluid or wiper water soap liquid or steering hydraulic fluid for top up of engine oil instead of engine oil. This could have resulted in first the piston rings wear down (blow past and crank case pressurising) and second, the failure of the crank pin bearing shells.

Finding only 1.1 litres in the sump is the result of failure (increased oil burning) and is not the cause of failure. More over, you have mentioned loss of engine power at some stage. I think it is due to increased ring clearences (reduced compression) or sticky piston rings (due to gumming of oil) or wearing down of big/small end bearings or a combination of all.

You can be rest assured that the failure is not due to non-renewal of the timer gear chain.

My humble advise to fellow BHPens are as follows:-
a) Far as possible, please be around when fluids are changed and peep whether correct fluid is filled.
b) When topping up between services please ensure the same grade oil is used.
c) By some bad luck if there is a catastrophic failure takes place or reported, please ensure you are present and the insurance surveyor is present when opening up, take sample of sump oil in his presence for further analysis, retain the lub oil filter to open and see whether there were any metal particles, see whether there were any metal particles in the sump, take as many photos as possible of all failed components as and when they were opened, if possible, take a friendly neibhourhood mechanic with you who will give his 2 paisa advise to you (pay for his time if required).

I am sorry, such a collapse of an engine, that too a Fiat multijet which powers many a car brands, at 57000 km is heart breaking and i sincerely think it is man made and not manufacturing defect. At many ASS/ work centres, we have to have systems not only fool proof but also monkey proof!

Views are welcome.
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Old 24th October 2014, 21:53   #116
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Default Re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

Quote:
Originally Posted by alavandar View Post
And the severe pitting marks on the crank pin indicates contamination of lub oil with corrosive substances.
Can't be sure from the pictures, but what looks like pitting on the crankpin can also be molten bearing material sticking to the crankpin.

Lubrication failure (whatever be the reason) is confirmed by the 'burnt' bearing shell. Scoring can be for a variety of reasons.

Regards
Sutripta

Last edited by Sutripta : 24th October 2014 at 21:57.
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Old 27th October 2014, 12:31   #117
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Default Re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

Reparing the turbo ? How does he plan to accomplish that ? Not worth it even if possible as the OE ones are cheap enough.

And I agree about the head part. Do something about it only if its warped, otherwise don't allow them to touch it.
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Old 27th October 2014, 14:30   #118
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Default Re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

I have 2 questions?

1. Who paid for the repairs?
2. Where did you get this repaired?
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Old 27th October 2014, 14:38   #119
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Default Re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

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Originally Posted by humyum View Post
Reparing the turbo ? How does he plan to accomplish that ? Not worth it even if possible as the OE ones are cheap enough.

And I agree about the head part. Do something about it only if its warped, otherwise don't allow them to touch it.
Actually the work is already done and only assembling back is remaining. Anyway I am planning to exchange this while buying a new car soon. So I want to keep the cost as low as possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssjr0498 View Post
I have 2 questions?

1. Who paid for the repairs?
2. Where did you get this repaired?
I am paying for the repair and getting it done from Sejal motors near outer ring road. For the core engine lathe related work, they give it to some place in JC road. This workshop has done overhaul for good number of MJD engines. Will let everyone know about the performance and other stuff after I get the car back possibly by coming weekend.
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Old 27th October 2014, 14:54   #120
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Default Re: Fiat Punto engine failure @ 57000 kms!

Quote:
Originally Posted by arunkk View Post
I am paying for the repair and getting it done from Sejal motors near outer ring road. For the core engine lathe related work, they give it to some place in JC road. This workshop has done overhaul for good number of MJD engines. Will let everyone know about the performance and other stuff after I get the car back possibly by coming weekend.
Never heard of this place, however, IMO charges seem a little overpriced and looks like they also took you for a small ride! That is why I asked who paid for this and where did you get it done!

But anyway, the damage has been done! Hopefully, the car will remain reliable till the time you decide to part with it!

I am sure that with your new car, you will be a lot careful and will never trust a SA or a A.S.S blindly!
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