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Old 28th October 2014, 11:01   #1
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Default Does a Broken Glow plug require opening of the engine head?

I had noticed the glow plug warning on my Linea and sent it in for work at the newly opened Fiat exclusive showroom on the NH bypass in Trivandrum, along with a few other jobs that needed to be done. They got back saying that one of the glow plugs was broken and there was no way of extracting it without opening the engine head. Could the more knowledgeable folks on this forum please confirm if this is true?

Regarding the new showroom, it has seemed so far like a half-hearted job. Service advisors are never available (it is not like they are handling unmanageable volumes), though that could be true for most company workshops with a shoddy reputation. The old staff has not been shifted to the exclusive showroom since they are handling pending vehicles at the old outlet. The warranty team is now active neither at the old facility nor at the new one. They claim it will be another week before the team is up and running, but have assured that they will send for the warranty request for this job once they do open.

Meanwhile, the car would be returned for me to use until then. They have assured that it is quite alright for me to use the car short of one glow plug. Again, dear forumers, please advise if this is alright?

The car has done 64k in about 4 years and hasn't had any major issues so far with the exception of a blown fuel pump and the occasional suspension part replacement. The rest could all be clubbed together as the niggles associated with owning a Fiat.
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Old 28th October 2014, 11:11   #2
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Default re: Does a Broken Glow plug require opening of the engine head?

Yes. But the question is how did the glow plug break. It breaks if too much torque is applied. This also damages the threads
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Old 28th October 2014, 11:45   #3
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Default re: Does a Broken Glow plug require opening of the engine head?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobC View Post
I had noticed the glow plug warning on my Linea and sent it in for work at the newly opened Fiat exclusive showroom on the NH bypass in Trivandrum, along with a few other jobs that needed to be done. They got back saying that one of the glow plugs was broken and there was no way of extracting it without opening the engine head. Could the more knowledgeable folks on this forum please confirm if this is true?
Ask them why they don't have a glow plug extractor/puller in their workshop. Being authorised workshop they should have it. Cylinder head should be opened only if the extractor doesn't work. Glow plug extractor tool: http://www.clas-equipements.com/en/p...x100-fiat-13mj

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Ask them if they have tried the extractor tool? If they don't have it try to find a place that does - another fiat service center or engine rebuilders or in cochin maybe? Go for head removal only if you don't have another option.

Do you have clarity on whether it was broken before you took it to the workshop or when the workshop guys tried to remove it? Trying to unscrew things from the hot engine without allowing the engine to cool down can break things.

A video of extracting a broken glow plug from the very same 1.3 multijet engine


Last edited by Sankar : 28th October 2014 at 11:48.
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Old 28th October 2014, 11:57   #4
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Default re: Does a Broken Glow plug require opening of the engine head?

I agree with Sankar, there is no reason to pull the head off. But you do need the right tools and skils to fix this. It's actually not that big a job, providing you have the extractors.

Various YouTube video's on this one. Nobody pulls the head off!



Jeroen

Last edited by Jeroen : 28th October 2014 at 11:58.
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Old 28th October 2014, 16:07   #5
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Default Re: Does a Broken Glow plug require opening of the engine head?

A more common situation than one would think. There's a couple of mentions on Team-BHP:

Quote:
Originally Posted by interc00led View Post
A special tool is used to remove the stuck/broken glow plug.
There are people who do the work on-site ie. they come to the workshop and remove the glow-plug for Rs.1000~1500.
9/10 times, there is no need to remove the head.

If the head is removed then make sure the head gasket,injector copper seals,exhaust gasket etc is replaced and the bolts torqued properly.
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Old 28th October 2014, 23:29   #6
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Default Re: Does a Broken Glow plug require opening of the engine head?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobC View Post

Meanwhile, the car would be returned for me to use until then. They have assured that it is quite alright for me to use the car short of one glow plug. Again, dear forumers, please advise if this is alright?
Should be ok I guess, as far as the engine is always running warm. Severe cold start and short period of run after starting the engine might be rough though and, little inefficient .
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Old 29th October 2014, 08:50   #7
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Default Re: Does a Broken Glow plug require opening of the engine head?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sankar View Post
Ask them why they don't have a glow plug extractor/puller in their workshop. Being authorised workshop they should have it. Cylinder head should be opened only if the extractor doesn't work.
..
..
Ask them if they have tried the extractor tool? If they don't have it try to find a place that does - another fiat service center or engine rebuilders or in cochin maybe? Go for head removal only if you don't have another option.
I checked with the service advisor and the technician regarding this. They mentioned that they had tried using the puller multiple times with no success. They had also tried running the engine for some time in the hope that heat expansion would loosen the stub. However, no joy. Apparently the stub that is stuck is too small, making extraction difficult.

The car has been returned to me and once their warranty team is in place they will raise this for approval. The plan is to remove the head to be taken outside for the glow plug stub to be machined out.

Quote:
Do you have clarity on whether it was broken before you took it to the workshop or when the workshop guys tried to remove it? Trying to unscrew things from the hot engine without allowing the engine to cool down can break things.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsk1979 View Post
Yes. But the question is how did the glow plug break. It breaks if too much torque is applied. This also damages the threads
My understanding is that the glow plug was broken before I took it to the workshop. I can't confirm that though, since I would have to accept the explanation from the workshop because I went in with the glow plug complaint.

A few more doubts:

- Does this information change views regarding course of action to be taken?
- Is anyone aware of an FNG in Trivandrum that would able to take a look at this to confirm if the stuck glow plug is as bad as FASS is claiming?
- Would it make sense to get someone from Maruti A.S.S. to have a look at this since they work on pretty much the same engine?
- Any major points that I need to look for if the option of opening the cylinder head is taken? I am not too technically well versed about cars. So the best I could look for is symptoms of problems during driving after completion of work.

Last edited by RobC : 29th October 2014 at 08:56. Reason: Rephrasing
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Old 29th October 2014, 10:00   #8
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Default Re: Does a Broken Glow plug require opening of the engine head?

Yes, need to be careful about the 1.3 MJD glow plugs. Its a known problem, and ASS guys should've taken precaution.

Now that its broken, Sankar is right. Use the correct tools.

And, please dont pay for their mistake.
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Old 29th October 2014, 11:26   #9
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Default Re: Does a Broken Glow plug require opening of the engine head?

Please find my replies in line:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobC View Post
A few more doubts:

- Does this information change views regarding course of action to be taken?

No, still would have some place else look at it with a puller. If that fails then head has to be removed anyway.

- Is anyone aware of an FNG in Trivandrum that would able to take a look at this to confirm if the stuck glow plug is as bad as FASS is claiming?

Is there another Fiat ASC you can take your car to? Mohandas, or some other Tata-Fiat workshops. I do not recommend taking this to a random neighbourhood garage (not even Bosch because the two that i know are not that good) if they don't have the necessary tools or expertise.

- Would it make sense to get someone from Maruti A.S.S. to have a look at this since they work on pretty much the same engine?

Yes that would be a good idea. If you have a friend who owns a Maruti may be he can convince his SA to take a look at your car.

- Any major points that I need to look for if the option of opening the cylinder head is taken? I am not too technically well versed about cars. So the best I could look for is symptoms of problems during driving after completion of work

For any lathe work that is involved ask them what work is being done and why? lathe work may be necessary but is good to know what is being done. Since the engine is being opened and because the 90BHP 1.3MJD has a known timing chain issue it would be good to get that also changed if it hasn't been done yet. I am not sure of this but i have read here that Fiat is upgrading the timing chain of 2009 Lineas free of cost.
Finally if you are left with no choices except Fiat workshop which is insisting on head removal make sure that the warranty covers all expenses.

Last edited by Sankar : 29th October 2014 at 11:28.
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Old 30th October 2014, 13:17   #10
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Default Re: Does a Broken Glow plug require opening of the engine head?

Friend, I have taken my linea to Mohandas Motors earlier to change the glow plug, but there was no issue in replacing it. They completed the work with in one hour. But i got a bill for replacing the glow plug even though the car is under extended warranty. I refused to pay and talked to the manager. The last attempt they made was to make me pay the bill and they will reimburse it in the next work. It was funny to hear that. I said I am not going to pay anything for the work. At last hey have to cancel the bill.

Now they have a new workshop in by-pass road in trivandrum i have not visited it till now. But we cant blame them for a broken glow plug since its a fragile item and its heated to extreme temperatures. so the glow plug can be broken when we try to remove it. The only alternative for FASS is in Kollam located in by-pass road, Dawik motors. Try your luck there if they can fix it without opening the head it will be good. The workshop manager name is Vivek. You can call him at 9526088893. Even my car too have a glow plug failure. I have not visited the garage to fix it. Planning to take the car for glow plug replacement by next week. Good luck buddy.
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Old 30th October 2014, 16:05   #11
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Default Re: Does a Broken Glow plug require opening of the engine head?

Yes, in case of MJD they need to open the head if the thin stem glow plug breaks off. The puller is also useless in 8/10 cases. The method is not much useful and the risk of burr falling into cylinder increases too.
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Old 6th November 2014, 14:25   #12
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Post Re: Does a Broken Glow plug require opening of the engine head?

Well i have read through the messages, and this is quite a long response but i have a bit of experience in this field, so please be patient and read on....

Firstly if there are metal particles in your cylinder there is a small chance they could damage it, please ask them to make sure that nothing is floating around.

Glow plugs do break from time to time, though this is becoming a lesser and lesser occurrence these days. The glow plugs main function is to heat the mixture in the cylinder for it to light. If there is enough heat the Glow plug should switch off automatically. This is unlike a Petrol engine which needs a spark every time. A glow plug should ideally fail before it brakes, there should be what is called a Glow Plug Timer (these days it sometimes comes as part of the ECU/glow plug unit etc) which ensures that the plug does not over heat! please ask your workshop to check this.

If there are broken pieces in your engine they should be able to remove it with a Magnetic telescope and/or flushing it. Ideally you should do this before taking your vehicle out.

If one glow plug is not working it means one cylinder is not working, and you may experience some knocking at low revs. This also means that you will be wasting fuel as the fuel will be discharged without being lit. This may affect your mileage. but as long as you don't over load the engine there should be know long term damage if you use it like this for a short while.

With regard to a new workshop and there manpower problems. Every new outlet across the world (especially in India (getting skilled manpower here is notoriously hard)) will have a few teething problems, but should be able to overcome them if the Management is good and they get adequate support from the Principle Manufacturer. Do not worry about the service adviser not attending you initially, it is more important they Diagnose your car's problems and the mechanic does his work properly. Personally i would take a good mechanic over a good SA any day!

Trying to change the Glow Plugs under warranty is notoriously hard. While i do agree that there are a lot of Workshops out there that simply try to over inflate the bill, a glow plug can only be claimed under warranty if a very specific set of conditions are fulfilled, much like a clutch plate, not all failures get covered under warranty because not all issues arise out of a Manufacturing defect. Also every mechanical part has a service life, what i would advise you do is look at your service schedule, there it should mention when/if you need to change your Glow Plugs. Most workshops overlook the more intricate and detailed things of a service schedule and dont change these things in time.

The glow plug removing tool is a basic requirement, if they don't have it they can purchase generic one online and use it, but as you said it seems they do have it. But a Glow Plug getting stuck in a manner where they have to remove the cylinder head is extremely rare. Ask they if they can drill it out and then tap the walls to clean any remaining pieces (Note: this is very slightly risky, but possible. and should save you a lot for time!). If they remove the head they will in all likelihood have to send it to a Laith machine for resurfacing and checking there are no leaks. Also the second way will take a few days and your car may be stuck there for a bit. However if they are claiming all this under Warranty they may have to follow they procedure laid down by the company. But please make sure that when you do send your car you get it in writing at least on the Job Card that there will be no charges for you. Sometimes the consumables such as Oil, Grease, Lubricant, cleanser, etc are charged to the customer. In which case you might as well use Method one which may end up being the same cost.

Hope this helps!

Last edited by GTO : 19th April 2016 at 10:29. Reason: Please restrict smiley usage to two-per-post. Kindly review the forum rules before posting further.
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Old 14th November 2014, 08:07   #13
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Default Re: Does a Broken Glow plug require opening of the engine head?

The TVS workshop at Karamana used to take good care of my Siena. I always found their service advisors knowledgeable and their mechanics were experienced men. This was a few years ago though.
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Old 3rd December 2014, 09:41   #14
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Default Re: Does a Broken Glow plug require opening of the engine head?

Took the vehicle to the garage of a friend just to get a second opinion and got to realise what exactly was wrong. The outer housing of the glow plug was intact but had broken off from the concealed pin like structure inside. So once unscrewed it comes off like a cap. The remaining pin leads into the heating element at the end which is stuck.

Further efforts at pulling this portion out resulted in just the pin coming off and the end portion still stuck. Given the small size of the portion left inside they advised that it would be risky to extract as the possibility of burr falling into the cylinder could not be discounted and that the option to go for would be to open the cylinder head and get the piece machined out.

Job card has been opened at FASS and photographs and details for warranty repair have been sent. Fingers crossed, that approval comes in soon.
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Old 12th December 2014, 19:43   #15
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Default Re: Does a Broken Glow plug require opening of the engine head?

Hello friend did you repair your vehicles glow plug issue.
Today i took my vehicle to mohandas motors for glow plug and wiring issue, they did a good job and everything is fine. I did not had the issue of glow plug stuck in the socket. This is the second time I am having glow plug failure, only one glow plug was faulty. I have paid full and took the vehicle the SA told they will inform once the warranty is approved, after that i will get a refund.
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