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Old 1st November 2014, 13:53   #31
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Default Re: Audi A6 engine problems. EDIT: Court orders Audi to repair the car

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Originally Posted by sahilverma View Post
Hi guys,

I am the owner of the A6 under discussion and my BHP membership has just been approved.

I've been following the thread closely and it's been very heartening to see that a number of you share my frustration and disbelief at the adulteration excuse Audi is hiding behind and the manner in which they handle customer care. I've faced this for over 18 months and I am very glad to be part of this community where the collective view seems to be aligned to the way I see the situation rather than the BS that Audi has been trying to shove down my throat.

Since I've put this out there, numerous instances of disgruntled customers have surfaced and it's surprising how they've got away with it! They would've got screwed in any of the western markets by now - Audi HO would've had to step in, investigate and do a complete overhaul of product and service quality standards and recycle the management team plus run a PR campaign to repair the damage. Here in India, they think it is cool to screw their customers cos there are many idiots like me who think that the Audi brand promise and service delivery would be consistent across the globe!

I am now available to answer any questions or provide further information as may be required. In court, VW argued that they should not be fixing my car as it is the responsibility of the dealership. The judge emphasised that it's their product and hence their responsibility to fix it in whichever way they seem fit. I am now awaiting a fee estimate before depositing the money in court. Will keep you posted.
Hey, Great going. Taking them to task is what these German and European brands need. We are not snake charmers anymore and nor are we the ones who can be invaded and occupied. We are a bunch of highly smart and educated lot and if we don't get what we are promised, we can initiate a war too.

Ask them to fix the car first, secondly to provide in writing that it will run on Indian fuel No matter what and thirdly to extend the warranty on whatever work is carried on for X years. Also monetary reimbursement for all the harassment. If they don't agree to any of this, ask for your entire money back of the car.

I can't imagine what would happen if fuel from BKC at a COCO pump is what Audi thinks could not meet their 'standards' of fuel. If only you would have taken your car to some remote place in Gujarat or Rajasthan and refueled. The car would have come back in a body bag.
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Old 1st November 2014, 13:53   #32
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Default Re: Audi A6 engine problems. EDIT: Court orders Audi to repair the car

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Originally Posted by prakhar1998 View Post
While your point stands valid to some extent, ..
Let the company sell cars made out of gold and with rocket abilities and at the price of Maruti 800.

If they are not going to extend the basic courtesy of listening to customers and resolving their problems, I'm not even going to give a damn about them.

When compared to most manufacturers, VAG group stands atop in treating customers like zilch, this forum has data for that.

So, as a customer, I treat them like dirt under my foot and don't care what their history is and what their products are capable of!
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Old 1st November 2014, 14:01   #33
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Default Re: Audi A6 engine problems. EDIT: Court orders Audi to repair the car

I can't understand whether it is the case of a poorly homologated product or all VAG dealerships being crooks.

Skoda, VW, Audi all have their own set of problems. And I am sure many will agree that the products are damn good. It's just that when something goes wrong, which it does for any brand, the dealership tries to fleece you.

After all, other cars breakdown too. These manufacturers don't try and pass the buck to fuel adulteration/bad roads etc.

Sad to see such cases cropping up now and again.

Thankfully this case seems to be heading to a just ending.
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Old 1st November 2014, 14:13   #34
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Default Re: Audi A6 engine problems. EDIT: Court orders Audi to repair the car

Sorry for asking this here, but ELI5 - What is the difference between the fuels of HP, BP etc vs Shell? I've never seen a Shell pump as there's no outlet of Shell here in Himachal Pradesh.
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Old 1st November 2014, 15:02   #35
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@sahil: stupid question but did you have each and every fuel receipt with you since you bought the car? How can a customer prove that he filled the fuel from this bunk only? A car is meant to be driven and at times we all tank up at a remote pump outside our comfort zone although even that pump is a outlet of one of the 3 reputed Indian PSU companies. So how does a customer refute this nonsense claim of adulterated fuel?
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Old 1st November 2014, 16:02   #36
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Default Re: Audi A6 engine problems. EDIT: Court orders Audi to repair the car

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Originally Posted by drmohitg View Post
@sahil: stupid question but did you have each and every fuel receipt with you since you bought the car? How can a customer prove that he filled the fuel from this bunk only? A car is meant to be driven and at times we all tank up at a remote pump outside our comfort zone although even that pump is a outlet of one of the 3 reputed Indian PSU companies. So how does a customer refute this nonsense claim of adulterated fuel?
Hi, I don't have receipts but I've pulled out all my credit card statements since I bought the car and I've highlighted my fuel transactions which show that since this issue first occurred in Dec 2013, I've only fuelled from HP owned and operated pumps in Bandra (W) and BKC. Prior to Dec, there are 3-4 instances when I've taken fuel from pumps other than these two. This has been submitted as part of the petition. Hope this helps clarify.
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Old 1st November 2014, 16:32   #37
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Default Audi A6 engine problems. EDIT: Court orders Audi to repair the car

I think people are confusing issues here. All the court has ordered is that the car be repaired on a paid basis. That should have been done without any kind of court order, and Audi Mumbai South's behaviour was ridiculous.

However, expecting luxury car manufacturers to redesign cars because the Indian oil PSUs are so corrupt and incompetent that they can't ensure quality fuel is unreasonable. When you buy a luxury car, you need to be aware of the fact that you have to fill it with fuel that meets specs. If the fuel has been adulterated, that is the oil PSUs fault and not that of the car manufacturer. The issue which has to be debated here is whether even the HPCL Coco at BKC has been giving adulterated fuel or if there is some other manufacturing defect in Sahil's car. After all, the 2.0TDI is used in different states of tune in all Audi, VW and Skoda models, and I have not heard similar complaints before. Sahil claims to have taken reasonable care to ensure that his car gets pure fuel - now it remains to be proved if that claim is correct and if so, who is at fault - Audi or HP.

However, people saying that Audi should ensure the same tolerance level as Maruti or Toyota is not a reasonable ask. Yes, volume cars for India are reengineered to work on the crap that passes for fuel here. But CKD assembled cars and imports can't be reengineered to work on a mix of diesel, kerosene, water and whatever else - and that is a risk any buyer of these products should be aware he is taking. Suing a car manufacturer because a car does not work on adulterated fuel would have been ridiculous - but that does not seem to be what Sahil is doing here.

Last edited by Hayek : 1st November 2014 at 16:33.
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Old 1st November 2014, 20:58   #38
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Default Re: Audi A6 engine problems. EDIT: Court orders Audi to repair the car

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Originally Posted by Hayek View Post
But CKD assembled cars and imports can't be reengineered to work on a mix of diesel, kerosene, water and whatever else - and that is a risk any buyer of these products should be aware he is taking. Suing a car manufacturer because a car does not work on adulterated fuel would have been ridiculous - but that does not seem to be what Sahil is doing here.
,
Whilst the owner confirms that he has gone to reasonable extents to fill pure fuel (to the extent possible as a consumer), there is a point which unfortunately does not add up.
Whether the Audi is CKD or indigenised, is not the Buyer's problem.
It ultimately points to the Company that is responsible to perform basic research on the Indian market before selling it's product here.

The point I am trying to make is, if Toyota, Tata, Maruti and other manufacturers have done this research, and tuned their product for the Indian market - why not Audi - specifically for this model which the Buyer owns.

It would have been a different matter, if the Buyer had on his own, imported the vehicle into the country from Germany (no adulteration there!) , and had a problem with running it due to adulterated fuel. But that does not appear to be the case for this specific instance.
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Old 1st November 2014, 22:02   #39
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Default Re: Audi A6 engine problems. EDIT: Court orders Audi to repair the car

I am hearing similar issue for the 2nd time. Earlier (few years back) someone had mentioned that Audi mentioned similar thing when the fuel was filled from BP petrol pump that is after the toll towards Pune on the expressway. I am really surprised that forum members have been very kind to Audi. Had it been Indian manufacturer, especially Tata (I am a Tata fan) they would have bombarded them and asked them to close down the manufacturing because of quality / ASS / 3rd class vehicles and so on.

Why no one is raising that if fuel quality is an issue then Audi should be asked not to sell that model. When they are launching the car obviously they are aware of the fuel quality. If not, then at least now either they need to make their cars Indian fuel compliant or should not be allowed to sell. What is the use of a car that costs few millions and cannot run on fuel.

Any takers?
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Old 1st November 2014, 22:11   #40
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Default Re: Audi A6 engine problems. EDIT: Court orders Audi to repair the car

If this is the way the buyer of a ~60 lac car gets treated, I shudder to imagine the fate of a poor Vento/Polo buyer. VW and it's dealers will probably try to charge us room-rent for waiting in the lounge while the cars get serviced. And because VW is 'premium', that will be in 5-star range.

Like others have mentioned, we are as much at fault as the manufacturers that such events occur with such regularity. In spite of so many horror stories floating around the VW group, we still scramble to buy them (Majority of us bhpians voted VW Polo in the 'which B2 hatch' survey, remember?) Why?

I sincerely hope the auto market (that includes buyers as much as sellers) in my country shows palpable improvement within my lifetime.

All the same, hats off to sahil for fighting it out - may the force be with you.

Last edited by isiv : 1st November 2014 at 22:12.
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Old 1st November 2014, 23:00   #41
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Default Re: Audi A6 engine problems. EDIT: Court orders Audi to repair the car

This is really shameful for such a big company. When anyone buys a car, they pay a lot of money for it and the basic expectation is that the company has ensured that the product is usable in the market where it is sold. Audi's blame on the fuel is ridiculous as many others fill the same fuel from the same pump(Obvious assumption) and surely all their cars are not in the workshop. So, there is something definitely wrong with the car and it is Audi's responsibility and obligation to get it right.
I know a couple of Audi owners myself and if issues such as this are not handled by them better, then I'm afraid neither my friends nor me would even consider an Audi in the future.
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Old 2nd November 2014, 00:07   #42
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Default Re: Audi A6 engine problems. EDIT: Court orders Audi to repair the car

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Originally Posted by Hayek View Post
I think people are confusing issues here. All the court has ordered is that the car be repaired on a paid basis. That should have been done without any kind of court order, and Audi Mumbai South's behaviour was ridiculous.

However, expecting luxury car manufacturers to redesign cars because the Indian oil PSUs are so corrupt and incompetent that they can't ensure quality fuel is unreasonable. When you buy a luxury car, you need to be aware of the fact that you have to fill it with fuel that meets specs. If the fuel has been adulterated, that is the oil PSUs fault and not that of the car manufacturer. The issue which has to be debated here is whether even the HPCL Coco at BKC has been giving adulterated fuel or if there is some other manufacturing defect in Sahil's car. After all, the 2.0TDI is used in different states of tune in all Audi, VW and Skoda models, and I have not heard similar complaints before. Sahil claims to have taken reasonable care to ensure that his car gets pure fuel - now it remains to be proved if that claim is correct and if so, who is at fault - Audi or HP.

However, people saying that Audi should ensure the same tolerance level as Maruti or Toyota is not a reasonable ask. Yes, volume cars for India are reengineered to work on the crap that passes for fuel here. But CKD assembled cars and imports can't be reengineered to work on a mix of diesel, kerosene, water and whatever else - and that is a risk any buyer of these products should be aware he is taking. Suing a car manufacturer because a car does not work on adulterated fuel would have been ridiculous - but that does not seem to be what Sahil is doing here.
Going by your statement, let us even give the VW group the benefit of the doubt in the context of India fuel quality issues, but look at the way they put their counter argument in the court .. That was completely illogical.
If they are passing on the responsibility to the dealer (who also is as unprofessional as the VW group), then why are they looking for the support of the dealers in selling their cars ? Going by their own logic, they should have set up their own showrooms. Anyway, one thing is for sure ... The German brands are still thinking that Indians can be taken for granted.

Anyway, one Indian has taken them to the court and I appreciate that.

Last edited by shan_ned : 2nd November 2014 at 00:09.
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Old 2nd November 2014, 01:05   #43
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Default Re: Audi A6 engine problems. EDIT: Court orders Audi to repair the car

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Originally Posted by Hayek View Post

However, expecting luxury car manufacturers to redesign cars because the Indian oil PSUs are so corrupt and incompetent that they can't ensure quality fuel is unreasonable. When you buy a luxury car, you need to be aware of the fact that you have to fill it with fuel that meets specs. If the fuel has been adulterated, that is the oil PSUs fault and not that of the car manufacturer. The issue which has to be debated here is whether even the HPCL Coco at BKC has been giving adulterated fuel or if there is some other manufacturing defect in Sahil's car. After all, the 2.0TDI is used in different states of tune in all Audi, VW and Skoda models, and I have not heard similar complaints before. Sahil claims to have taken reasonable care to ensure that his car gets pure fuel - now it remains to be proved if that claim is correct and if so, who is at fault - Audi or HP.

However, people saying that Audi should ensure the same tolerance level as Maruti or Toyota is not a reasonable ask. Yes, volume cars for India are reengineered to work on the crap that passes for fuel here. But CKD assembled cars and imports can't be reengineered to work on a mix of diesel, kerosene, water and whatever else - and that is a risk any buyer of these products should be aware he is taking. Suing a car manufacturer because a car does not work on adulterated fuel would have been ridiculous - but that does not seem to be what Sahil is doing here.
Why bring something to India very well knowing that a person buying that car cannot have his own oil field and refinery to refine the fuel himself to match the 'apparent' quality standards the company expects ? And secondly the adulteration is not that rampant and certainly its not how it used to be 10 years or so before otherwise none of the CRDI's and complex Multijets would last the lakhs of kilometers they last.

The COCO bunk at BKC is reputed and many owners of luxury cars get their cars tanked up from there. The 2 liter TDI is no Bugatti Veryon Engine. Its just a TDI producing 177 bhp. A Chevrolet Cruze which costs way less produces 166 bhp from its 2 liter mill and lots of owners here on Teambhp too. Never have I heard of them breaking down because of fuel quality.

I own a Diesel Swift. It has circumvented half of India, run 1 lakh 4 thousand kilometers, filled diesel from remote villages in Gujarat, Rajasthan, heck even Kargil and Leh.

It is definitely not unreasonable to ask manufacturers make cars or bring cars which suit India. CKD or KBC, why would the owner care ? He has paid money, hard earned money to buy a luxury car expecting a stress free ownership experience.Rest is the company's look out.

Maruti's and Toyotas run on Indian fuel because the company has taken the effort to re engineer a car to run in India and have taken the Indian customer seriously. Clearly Audi has not, why give such companies any business then? The blame lies sorely on the company and that too this has happened twice to the same car.
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Old 2nd November 2014, 02:10   #44
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Default Re: Audi A6 engine problems. EDIT: Court orders Audi to repair the car

Besides the customer care side of things, the issue of adulterated fuel is the central point in this case as I believe that even if the fuel is adulterated, it is the company's moral responsibility to either adapt their product or inform the customer about the risks. My decision to buy an Audi was based on the trust that the brand stands (stood) for quality and hence they would've tested and ironed out any issues that their cars face due to differing conditions in India. I am below copying a comment on FB from one of my friends and my response to the same as it is relevant to the discussion.

Comment - Hey sahil.. Even though I'm out here in DC just wanted to let u know. I've had some engine issues with my audi Q7 about 3-4 times so far since we got it oct 2011. They did a whole bunch of tests and told me they think the fuel I had used may have been adultereted!!! Ofcourse here we use the recommended gas and standard stations! Anyways changed out usual station we use.. I don't believe it was a fuel issue with my car. I think it was just a default explanation!!

My response - Fuel adulteration is a BS excuse and shocking to know that they are using it even in developed countries. Even if Indian fuel is generally adulterated, it is Audi's responsibility to work with the government and nationalised fuel companies to address this issue plus educate consumers of the risks associated with using their products in India. Alternatively, they should modify their cars to ensure these work with Indian conditions before selling in the market. This is a classic case of accessing a high growth market to boost sales but not investing to adapt their product and create a proper delivery and service infrastructure to support the consumer base.
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Old 2nd November 2014, 10:33   #45
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Default Re: Audi A6 engine problems. EDIT: Court orders Audi to repair the car

Kudos to Sahil for his fight against incompetence and injustice. I still can't believe that VW and dealers were blaming each other in the court. Best of luck.
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