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Old 2nd November 2014, 11:31   #46
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I totally agree. A company cannot blame the customer on the pretence of adulterated fuel. If the car cannot digest the fuel available in our country then what is the point of selling it here. Moreover the customer is not making his own fuel sitting at home. It's simple logic. To run a car one needs fuel. And the only way we can buy fuel in this country is via few selected companies and there outlets. So it has to be either the car company or the oil company that has to foot the bill. Somehow reminds me of the movie "oh my god".
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Old 2nd November 2014, 11:38   #47
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Default Re: Audi A6 engine problems. EDIT: Court orders Audi to repair the car

Sahil - good going and good luck to you. I am sure this will be a critical event in the way customers are handled by manufacturers.

I would urge fellow BHPians to publicize this thread so that more and more people are aware of their rights as a customer and subsequently manufacturers stop taking us for granted.
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Old 2nd November 2014, 11:39   #48
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Hi Sahil,
Glad to see a resolution after a good struggle. However, I am a little unclear on courts verdict. Why have they asked you to deposit the money with them? Does that mean you will be bearing the cost of repairs and not VW group?
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Old 2nd November 2014, 11:54   #49
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I assume the court has till now only directed the dealership to repair the car and return it to the customer and the customer will bear the cost of the repairs which will be submitted by him to the court and not to the company. The court will then decide after listening to the arguments from both sides and if the owner is found at fault the cost of repairs will be forwarded to the dealership. If not then these would be returned to the owner along with whatever compensation is decided by the court.

Bottom line is that whatever may be the case, the company and it's dealership cannot illegally hold the customers vehicle even when the customer is willing to pay in full for whatever repairs they want to carry out.

Last edited by drmohitg : 2nd November 2014 at 11:55.
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Old 2nd November 2014, 12:15   #50
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Default Re: Audi A6 engine problems. EDIT: Court orders Audi to repair the car

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Originally Posted by drmohitg View Post
The court will then decide after listening to the arguments from both sides and if the owner is found at fault the cost of repairs will be forwarded to the dealership. If not then these would be returned to the owner along with whatever compensation is decided by the court.
It's a step in the right direction. It might be recollected that Harish's Skoda Octavia was standing in the yard, rotting away for 5+ years, while the court proceedings went on!
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Old 2nd November 2014, 12:22   #51
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Default Audi A6 engine problems. EDIT: Court orders Audi to repair the car

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Originally Posted by shan_ned View Post
If they are passing on the responsibility to the dealer (who also is as unprofessional as the VW group), then why are they looking for the support of the dealers in selling their cars ?

I have not claimed the dealer has behaved well. And Audi certainly has not acquitted itself well either. But agreeing with that does not make me change my view on whether a company has to design a car to run on adulterated fuel.

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Originally Posted by humyum View Post
The 2 liter TDI is no Bugatti Veryon Engine. Its just a TDI producing 177 bhp. Chevrolet Cruze which costs way less produces 166 bhp from its 2 liter mill and lots of owners here on Teambhp too. Never have I heard of them breaking down because of fuel quality.


The VW group 2.0 TDI is used in Audis (A3, Q3, A4, q5, A6), VWs (Jetta and Passat), and Skodas (Laura, Octavia, Yeti and Superb). This is the first case of a failure that I have heard of on the forum. So I agree that this needs further investigation and have said it could be a manufacturing defect as well


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Originally Posted by sahilverma View Post
I believe that even if the fuel is adulterated, it is the company's moral responsibility to either adapt their product or inform the customer about the risks
Have to disagree with that. It should be obvious to anyone that cars require fuel that meets specs to work properly. And owners manuals clearly specify the fuel standard that is expected. However, I do think fuel is unlikely to be the cause of your problem if you have been filling at the pump you are talking about.
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Old 2nd November 2014, 12:54   #52
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Originally Posted by Hayek View Post
I have not claimed the dealer has behaved well. And Audi certainly has not acquitted itself well either. But agreeing with that does not make me change my view on whether a company has to design a car to run on adulterated fuel.
A company does not need to design a car to run on adulterated fuel. But a company does need to design a car to run on the fuel available in the market it is operating in. There is a difference between the two things.

I am really at a loss here. As a customer what am I supposed to do? The company recommends a fuel that is pure. I agree. Where do I buy this? Are there any specific bunks that the company recommends? Or do they offer a different grade of fuel that can be bought from there dealerships? If not then I am left with the only option to fill from the regular pumps operating in our country. This is like forcefully landing the A380 aircraft on a small tier 2 airport and then when it crashes, you blame the airport without acknowledging the fact that the infrastructure available in unsuitable for your product to begin with. So either you limit it to airports where it can land or don't operate it.

BMW has 2 inherent design problems. One is that it lacks a spare wheel which might be alright in Germany but not in India. The other that it's hard suspension is good for smooth roads but a bomb waiting to explode on pothole infested regular Indian roads. But the customer here is informed and can choose to modify there style of driving to adapt to the two things. But how on earth do I ensure that I get AUDI grade of fuel in our country?

Sorry for the rant. But this is frustrating.

Last edited by drmohitg : 2nd November 2014 at 12:57.
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Old 2nd November 2014, 13:31   #53
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Default Audi A6 engine problems. EDIT: Court orders Audi to repair the car

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Originally Posted by drmohitg View Post
The company recommends a fuel that is pure. I agree. Where do I buy this?... This is like forcefully landing the A380 aircraft on a small tier 2 airport and then when it crashes, you blame the airport without acknowledging the fact that the infrastructure available in unsuitable for your product to begin with. So either you limit it to airports where it can land or don't operate it.

BMW lacks a spare wheel... + it's hard suspension is good for smooth roads but a bomb waiting to explode on pothole infested regular Indian roads. But the customer here is informed. But how on earth do I ensure that I get AUDI grade of fuel in our country?

Your rant would have been reasonable if 80% of Audis were failing and no cars by other manufacturers were doing so. Eg - people ranting about the DQ200 is reasonable. But that is not the case here. The 2.0 TDi is a very widely used engine, and this is the first failure I have seen on Team BHP. So there is either a problem with Sahil's car or Sahil's petrol bunk. If Audi is able to demonstrate that the fuel is contaminated, then it's not their problem any more. Why are we assuming a HPCL Coco is better than a quality dealer. The staff at the Coco could be adulterating fuel with kerosene (huge incentive given the price difference) or may be have not maintained their tank, leading to a problem where it is not keeping water out during the rains or whatever else. Or it could be sheer bad luck where the odd contaminated fuel lot has entered Sahil's tank twice. (can happen to someone, somewhere, I am sure). My cousin has a Passat with the same 2.0 TDi engine and has had no problems so far (touch wood). Anshuman has taken his Laura ( which uses the same engine but with lower power) all over including to Ladakh without issues. Of all the products that VW group has, the 2.0 TDi has been among the most reliable.

As for the A380 analogy, I would say caveat emptor. If you are buying an A380, better have a Cat F runway to fly to. As for BMW, I have seen many more people run into difficulty with the run flats than a one off engine failure here.
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Old 2nd November 2014, 14:54   #54
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Default Re: Audi A6 engine problems. EDIT: Court orders Audi to repair the car

One thing, if I am buying a SuperBike, I will try to fill it with Speed 97 whenever available, keep octane booster & use it as and when necessary. Will try to fill at least with Speed 93.

So, if I will be buying a VAG or any German luxury/sports car, I will make sure to fill it up with clean fuel.
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Old 2nd November 2014, 16:30   #55
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Default Re: Audi A6 engine problems. EDIT: Court orders Audi to repair the car

this has nothing to do with fuel quality. This is a legacy issue specifically with Audi 2.0 TDI (or whtever they call it these days) fuel pumps which malfunction on certain vehicles due to reasons only the company is privy to.

Team BHP has many threads which have similar complaints of fuel pump in 2.0 TDI VAG engine malfunctioning and dealer blaming it on water, poor fuel, or in some cases pixie dust.

The tragic and especially curious aspect of this is that in each and every such case, both company VAG and the dealer team up to cover-up the issue and pass the entire blame onto the customer in guise of water in fuel, poor fuel quality etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hayek
Yes, volume cars for India are reengineered to work on the crap that passes for fuel here. But CKD assembled cars and imports can't be reengineered to work on a mix of diesel, kerosene, water and whatever else
Kerosene these days is more expensive than diesel.

For the price diesel is sold, I doubt there are cheap additives anymore apart from let's say furnace oil.

Water may ingress into underground fuel tank, but why are only VAG engines affected by it. Why is Maruti, Hyundai, Toyota, Mercedes, BMW, Renault, Nissan, Isuzu, TATA, Mahindra, Fiat engines never susceptible to this 'water' issue in India.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hayek
The 2.0 TDi is a very widely used engine, and this is the first failure I have seen on Team BHP.
There is a forum member from Kochi who had a Yeti 2.0 TDI which had same fuel pump issue and dealer blamed it on water or poor fuel quality. There was another Skoda thread this year which I forget that had same fuel pump issue and model was 2.0 TDI.

Last edited by lurker : 2nd November 2014 at 16:33.
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Old 2nd November 2014, 16:56   #56
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Default Re: Audi A6 engine problems. EDIT: Court orders Audi to repair the car

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Originally Posted by Sheel View Post

So, if I will be buying a VAG or any German luxury/sports car, I will make sure to fill it up with clean fuel.
Sir please tell me what is this "I will fill only clean fuel" statement that so many of us are saying means? What is the definition of clean fuel? And how do I procure it?

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Originally Posted by lurker View Post
There is a forum member from Kochi who had a Yeti 2.0 TDI which had same fuel pump issue and dealer blamed it on water or poor fuel quality. There was another Skoda thread this year which I forget that had same fuel pump issue and model was 2.0 TDI.
+1. This is not just a one off incident and every now and then there is a thread stating the same matter and the dealership parroting the same excuse. And IIRC there were a couple of BMWs also that reported the same issue on the forum.
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Old 2nd November 2014, 17:11   #57
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Default Re: Audi A6 engine problems. EDIT: Court orders Audi to repair the car

ok got it.

Same problem, different state and I concur it may be same engine as here.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...arranty-2.html (Skoda Yeti. 4.5 lakh repair bill! EDIT: Fuel system replaced under warranty)

Pls note this is from an international audi forum. Issue was being discussed in 2011. It was a slightly different engine but 2.0 nevertheless.


http://www.audi-sport.net/xf/threads...a-seat.140949/

Quote:
trying to figure out why some 2.0PD oil pump drives fail and some don't
.

Quote:
The BKD, AZV & BMN 2.0 engines (which is what found their way into the 2.0 PD Octavia, A3, Golf, various Seats) used a chain driven oil pump very similar, but not identical, to the old 1.9 130hp PD engine. This never seems to give any problems. I can tell from ETKA these engines don't have a balancer shaft which I think is the key to it - it's the balancer shafts that cause the problems on the 'posher' VAG 2.0 PD diesels eg Passat, A4, Superb. By trying to make the engine more refined for the more expensive models they destroyed it's reliability in the process.

Very briefly, the 2.0 PD differs from the 1.9 in having twin Lanchester balancing shafts which contra-rotate at 2x crank speed. The first engines used a chain drive which was a complete disaster (pictures on this website) and the later engines a gear drive. All 2.0 PD got the geared drive towards the end of 2005.

The problem with the 2.0 PD engine is the drive from the slave balancer shaft to the oil pump, which is a piece of 6 AF hex bar which has inadequate engagement depth with the grooves in the slave shaft. It's the torsional oscillations caused by the balance shafts which destroy the oil pump coupling (the 6mm AF bit of hex) and the chain drive to the balancer shafts before the gear driven systems came out, though these still give problems with the hex key rounding. Think washing machine -> unbalanced load -> keep doing it = new machine.

PSA had no problem at all driving their oil pump from the slave balancer shaft on the bigger HDi engines so it's poor VAG engineering at the bottom of it all - as usual.

As I said earlier, the problem is with lack of concentricity of the drive socket into which the drive rod/hex fits. Since I've started looking at this problem, I've seen three cars where the drive socket is off centre by at least 0.1mm. In engineering terms, this is a massive defect. Since I've starting checking the concentricity, all the drive sockets in the failed units were off centre, but all the replacement balancer units were dead centre and have not led to a repeat failure in the people i have spoken too. Some replacement balancer units have now done 100k+ miles according to some garages.

So, to sum up. You will get this problem at some point if you have a 2.0TDi WITH balancer shafts. (same problem carried over to next generation of engines also. From PD to TDI the problem is carried over) If your 2.0TDi does NOT have balancer shafts, you will be ok. If you fit the lastest balancer shaft/ pump assembley from VAG it will more than likely cure the problem for life as they have made the hex longer and centered it all properley.

Dealers do not admit any liability. You will not get any fiscal help with changing for the new balancer/pump unit. The fact that VAG have released and re-released different pumps/shafts/engines etc.. is "purely coincidence", according to Audi customer services! I am voting with my feet and never buying a VAG car ever again, they are not worth the extra money and the customer service is a disgrace. If you have this problem yourself, STOP driving the car. If you havent blown the turbo and your engine is not rattling you may get away with not replacing the lump, just the pump/balancer. If you havent had the problem yet and you do have a balancer shaft engine, I would advise either changing the balacer system now or getting rid of the car. From what i can assertain, CR engines are safe. Anything before that..well, Audi/VAG wont say exactley when they started to fit the units that actualy work properley.....

Last edited by lurker : 2nd November 2014 at 17:32.
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Old 2nd November 2014, 17:56   #58
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Default Re: Audi A6 engine problems. EDIT: Court orders Audi to repair the car

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Originally Posted by drmohitg View Post

BMW has 2 inherent design problems. One is that it lacks a spare wheel which might be alright in Germany but not in India. The other that it's hard suspension is good for smooth roads but a bomb waiting to explode on pothole infested regular Indian roads. But the customer here is informed and can choose to modify there style of driving to adapt to the two things. But how on earth do I ensure that I get AUDI grade of fuel in our country?

Sorry for the rant. But this is frustrating.
I'd just like to point out that the first problem has been solved. Cars are being delivered with spare wheels now. Just got my 5er and it comes with a spare in the boot.
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Old 2nd November 2014, 18:03   #59
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Default Re: Audi A6 engine problems. EDIT: Court orders Audi to repair the car

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I'd just like to point out that the first problem has been solved. Cars are being delivered with spare wheels now. Just got my 5er and it comes with a spare in the boot.
What??

Can you please post pictures of the same? Kudos to them for finally addressing this issue. Any chances of the same change happening across the range?
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Old 2nd November 2014, 18:04   #60
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Default Re: Audi A6 engine problems. EDIT: Court orders Audi to repair the car

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Originally Posted by drmohitg View Post
What??

Can you please post pictures of the same? Kudos to them for finally addressing this issue. Any chances of the same change happening across the range?
Yes 3s, 5s, etc now come with space savers strapped onto the boot floor.
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