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Old 23rd March 2015, 08:50   #121
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Default Re: Honda Amaze: Oil leak, engine seized! A bad experience with Honda service

Isin't this possible to covered under the own damage clause of the insurance.Bhpian Sgiitk's civic got a hit by a stone which damaged the compressor. Same was covered by his insurance co. Even your friend managed not to see the oil low warning, if there was any, he did not purposely drive the car without oil.Just like no one intends to be in accident he did not intend for this to happen and i think the insurance co should owe up and pay up.On the other hand Honda is also responsible if this a manafacturing defect.
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Old 23rd March 2015, 09:50   #122
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Default Re: Honda Amaze: Oil leak, engine seized! A bad experience with Honda service

parimal_g,

Going further, replacing the engine is the best way to go for any engine that has seized at likely 2500+ rpm. Significant damage would have occurred to nearly every moving part. Even parts that don't have any apparent signs of damage must be replaced. The shock loads that would have been imposed, at high temperature and due to sudden stoppage, would be too great for any component in the long run.

If they refuse to replace the engine, no matter what, then make sure that every single component is replaced. From the crankcase, main shaft, cylinders, con rods and pistons, to every single gear and accessory component like oil pumps etc. The transmission would also have likely come under significant stress due to sudden and complete stoppage. Bear in mind that engines that have been rebuilt have a significant chance of failure within the first 2 years of subsequent operation. My experience is limited and in the domain of aircraft reciprocating engines, where the loads and circumstances under which they operate are very different. But rebuilt engines are a last resort, and there are special rules that mandate close monitoring of such engines throughout their operational lives; more so in the first few months/years.

With regards to bearing the cost of replacement/rebuilding, as almost every other member has pointed out here, it shouldn't be you.

As I mentioned earlier, there is a almost a zero likelihood that a stone caused this. The crack appears to be located towards the upper side, and if it was really caused by a stone, there would have been some cosmetic (visible) damage in that area. An impact with anything that caused that kind of crack, would leave some exterior visible damage. From the photos you've provided, it doesn't appear to be the case. This is on account of a crack that was likely initiated from the inside-out. Having occurred at such close proximity to the oil filter is no coincidence. That filter was likely not fitted correctly. Overtorquing, sideways application of load, a cross thread that was forced to fit, all these can cause significant stress on the threads. Castings are not made to deal with such stresses.

To avoid bearing the cost of their mistake, I would highly recommend that you take the assistance of a qualified automotive engineer, or anyone who can vouch in the court of law that this was manufacturing induced or, more likely, service induced.
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Old 23rd March 2015, 14:03   #123
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Default Re: Honda Amaze: Oil leak, engine seized! A bad experience with Honda service

Here's a similar issue with regards to oil filter abuse. Came across it listed under "Similar Threads" below this one.

Re: Maruti Ertiga VDi - Engine oil leak. EDIT : Issue resolved on Page 3 (Maruti Ertiga VDi - Engine oil leak. EDIT : Issue resolved on Page 3)
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Old 24th March 2015, 18:22   #124
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Default Re: Honda Amaze: Oil leak, engine seized! A bad experience with Honda service

Update : E Mail Reply from Honda.


Quote:
Originally Posted by CowlFlap View Post
parimal_g,


If they refuse to replace the engine, no matter what, then make sure that every single component is replaced. From the crankcase, main shaft, cylinders, con rods and pistons, to every single gear and accessory component like oil pumps etc. The transmission would also have likely come under significant stress due to sudden and complete stoppage. Bear in mind that engines that have been rebuilt have a significant chance of failure within the first 2 years of subsequent operation. My experience is limited and in the domain of aircraft reciprocating engines, where the loads and circumstances under which they operate are very different. But rebuilt engines are a last resort, and there are special rules that mandate close monitoring of such engines throughout their operational lives; more so in the first few months/years.

With regards to bearing the cost of replacement/rebuilding, as almost every other member has pointed out here, it shouldn't be you.

As I mentioned earlier, there is a almost a zero likelihood that a stone caused this. The crack appears to be located towards the upper side, and if it was really caused by a stone, there would have been some cosmetic (visible) damage in that area. An impact with anything that caused that kind of crack, would leave some exterior visible damage. From the photos you've provided, it doesn't appear to be the case. This is on account of a crack that was likely initiated from the inside-out. Having occurred at such close proximity to the oil filter is no coincidence. That filter was likely not fitted correctly. Overtorquing, sideways application of load, a cross thread that was forced to fit, all these can cause significant stress on the threads. Castings are not made to deal with such stresses.

To avoid bearing the cost of their mistake, I would highly recommend that you take the assistance of a qualified automotive engineer, or anyone who can vouch in the court of law that this was manufacturing induced or, more likely, service induced.

Yes, they have not opened the gear box, so we really don't know if the damage has reached till gearbox or not. Looking at their replies, i doubt they are ever going to accept its their mistake.

Following is the latest reply from Honda for the queries raised by my friend.


"
1 In your mail below, you have agreed that its an external impact. Legally -
any external impact is accidental in nature. Why was this not referred to the Insurance ? :
HONDA: As shared with you by our dealership, the cause of damage to the engine related parts is its running with low level of engine oil. The oil filter of your car had been damaged by an external
impact which led to oil leakage. Further driving of car with low oil level indicator caused consequential damages to the engine. As per the terms and conditions of the insurance policy, any consequential damages are not covered under insurance cover. The same was explained to you by the dealership and your consent was taken to dismantle the engine further to assess the extent of damage.

2. If this is an external impact, then please provide the object
> or thing that would have caused this impact. :
HONDA: The external impact happened while you were driving the car and the car was later towed to the
dealership Hence, it is not possible to provide the object or thing that would have caused this impact.

3. A hit like that cannot cause an oil leak. Even the gap between filer and engine seems to be intact. So, what could really have caused an oil leak.
HONDA:The oil leak has been caused by some external impact on the oil filter. The photos of the same had already been shared with you and the parts have also been physically shown to you at the
dealership.

4. There is a hole on the casting . Are you saying it happened at the time of dismantling
? If yes then do you have any video proof of dismantling of engine. :

HONDA:The damage on the casing referred by you has happened consequential to the internal damage caused to the engine parts and have not happened at the time of dismantling.
5. Even if there is no oil, technically the engine will just seize or over heat, breaking of connecting rods and other parts in abnormal. How could this happen?
The connecting rods of the engine have not broken as mentioned by you but had seized and bent due to running the car in low engine oil level condition and consequently damaged other Parts.
We hope the above clarifies on your concerns.

We regret for the unfortunate incident, but since the cause of the incident is external to the product/workmanship at our dealership, the repairs/replacement cannot be undertaken under warranty and neither under the insurance claim for the reasons mentioned above as was explained to you. We seek your kind understanding on the matter and request your approval to undertake the repairs on chargeable.
Basis.
"
Looking at the above reply from
Honda, i don't even think they have any kind of respect towards the customer. He has not even received a singe call from Honda after he escalated the matter to Honda.
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Old 24th March 2015, 18:48   #125
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Reply was along expected lines IMO, but the surprising part is that they say the damage (hole) on the casing occurred due to engine seizing. That was really surprising.

Also - from the initial picture, I thought the damage was to the block near to the filter (which appeared like a manufacturing defect). But above mail says oil filter itself was damaged?

So- are they saying this (below) caused all the damage? Pardon me if wrong since I'm browsing from mobile and can't figure out any other damage to the filter.
Attached Images
 

Last edited by CrAzY dRiVeR : 24th March 2015 at 18:53.
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Old 25th March 2015, 13:25   #126
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Post Re: Honda Amaze: Oil leak, engine seized! A bad experience with Honda service

Quote:
Originally Posted by parimal_g View Post
Can you please share what exactly happened with your friends Linea, We can raise this issue as i know Fiat is known to be very helpful in such cases, if the case is genuine. Also if required we can escalate to the higher management.
We can even start a new thread to help him, am sure it will help.
Well, will try and make a long story short as regards to my friend's Diesel Linea.

My friend bought his Linea Diesel in Feb 2010 (with extended warranty of two years). The car has had a love affair with the workshop similar to that of a hypochondriac with a doctor: from the fourth day since delivery, all in all it has made 13 visits to the ASS (authorized service station, being politically correct ) for service, repairs and what not, till before this incident.

His misfortunes, similar to the Amaze story, also took place on the Mumbai Pune Expressway on a day in May 2014, wherein the car shuddered and halted. Since it wouldn't start, my friend had it towed to his residence in Navi Mumbai, post which it was looked at by the workmen of Fiat Dealer (Balaji Nerul). They recommended towing it to their workshop, which was done, and thereafter presented their diagnosis of the engine having seized on account of connecting and main bearing due to a lack of engine oil.

Even though the car was under its last few days of extended warranty, the claim was denied by Fiat citing that the 30k and 60k km services hadn't been done as per schedule. My friend, on the other hand, says the car hasn't been looked at by anyone other than Fiat in the entire four+ years and 71k+ kms of ownership. His most recent service had been done in Feb 2014 a whisker short of 72k kms, and strangely, is one where an oil change was carried out. The engine seizure happened around 75k kms, around three months from the last service.

So with neither the dealer nor Fiat budging, the case has found its way to the Consumer Forum for appropriate processing, even as the car continues to languish.
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Old 25th March 2015, 13:38   #127
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Default Re: Honda Amaze: Oil leak, engine seized! A bad experience with Honda service

Quote:
Originally Posted by dhruvtanwar View Post
Well, will try and make a long story short as regards to my friend's Diesel Linea.

My friend bought his Linea Diesel in Feb 2010 (with extended warranty of two years). The car has had a love affair with the workshop similar to that of a hypochondriac with a doctor: from the fourth day since delivery, all in all it has made 13 visits to the ASS (authorized service station, being politically correct ) for service, repairs and what not, till before this incident.

His misfortunes, similar to the Amaze story, also took place on the Mumbai Pune Expressway on a day in May 2014, wherein the car shuddered and halted. Since it wouldn't start, my friend had it towed to his residence in Navi Mumbai, post which it was looked at by the workmen of Fiat Dealer (Balaji Nerul). They recommended towing it to their workshop, which was done, and thereafter presented their diagnosis of the engine having seized on account of connecting and main bearing due to a lack of engine oil.

Even though the car was under its last few days of extended warranty, the claim was denied by Fiat citing that the 30k and 60k km services hadn't been done as per schedule. My friend, on the other hand, says the car hasn't been looked at by anyone other than Fiat in the entire four+ years and 71k+ kms of ownership. His most recent service had been done in Feb 2014 a whisker short of 72k kms, and strangely, is one where an oil change was carried out. The engine seizure happened around 75k kms, around three months from the last service.

So with neither the dealer nor Fiat budging, the case has found its way to the Consumer Forum for appropriate processing, even as the car continues to languish.
We can definitely check the service history at any Fiat dealer, Can you please send his car registration no to parimalgandhe@gmail.com and mails regarding to Fiat with regards to this case.

Last edited by GTO : 28th March 2015 at 10:49. Reason: Typo
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Old 25th March 2015, 13:45   #128
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Default Re: Honda Amaze: Oil leak, engine seized! A bad experience with Honda service

Quote:
Originally Posted by parimal_g View Post
We regret for the unfortunate incident, but since the cause of the incident is external to the product/workmanship at our dealership, the repairs/replacement cannot be undertaken under warranty and neither under the insurance claim for the reasons mentioned above as was explained to you. We seek your kind understanding on the matter and request your approval to undertake the repairs on chargeable.
It seems they are hell bent on on not helping out.So as per them,external impacts are not considered as accident? Consumer court it is.

Last edited by rakesh_r : 25th March 2015 at 13:51.
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Old 25th March 2015, 13:51   #129
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Default Re: Honda Amaze: Oil leak, engine seized! A bad experience with Honda service

Quote:
Originally Posted by parimal_g View Post
We can defiantly check the service history at any Fiat dealer, Can you please send his car registration no to parimalgandhe@gmail.com and mails regarding to Fiat with regards to this case.
Shall ask him to get in touch with you via email with details.
Many thanks!
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Old 25th March 2015, 13:53   #130
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Default Re: Honda Amaze: Oil leak, engine seized! A bad experience with Honda service

DO not believe a word the HONDA people say. Who said there was no engine oil in the engine. It is most likely a part failure due to a manufacturing defect which Honda do not want to own up and hence they bring in a fancy theory of engine oil being absent. To ascertain if there was no engine oil, in your presence ask for the big end journal bearings to be seen after dismantling. If the oil was missing on reduced all the big end sleeve bearings would be scoured to kingdom come. I smell a skunk at the Honda hierarchy who just do not want to own up to the fact that their quality has gone south to the levels of TATA.
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Old 25th March 2015, 13:55   #131
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Default Re: Honda Amaze: Oil leak, engine seized! A bad experience with Honda service

Quote:
Originally Posted by parimal_g View Post
Update : E Mail Reply from Honda.
......Further driving of car with low oil level indicator caused consequential damages to the engine....
Which is this low oil level indicator Honda is referrig to.
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Old 25th March 2015, 14:01   #132
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Default Re: Honda Amaze: Oil leak, engine seized! A bad experience with Honda service

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Originally Posted by rajeev k View Post
Which is this low oil level indicator Honda is referrig to.
This one:

Honda Amaze: Oil leak, engine seized! A bad experience with Honda service-2013hondaamazeinstrumentcluster.png
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Old 25th March 2015, 15:00   #133
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Default Re: Honda Amaze: Oil leak, engine seized! A bad experience with Honda service

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gannu_1 View Post
But that is the low lube oil pressure indicator.
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Old 25th March 2015, 15:23   #134
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But that is the low lube oil pressure indicator.
It's the same indicator. The engine oil is the lube oil. Or are you aware of any other lube oil?
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Old 25th March 2015, 15:25   #135
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Default Re: Honda Amaze: Oil leak, engine seized! A bad experience with Honda service

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gannu_1 View Post
It's the same indicator. The engine oil is the lube oil. Or are you aware of any other lube oil?
Probably he wants to say that it is a pressure indicator, not a level indicator. Pressure can be correct upto a certain threshold even if the oil level in the engine is low.
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