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Old 21st September 2016, 00:55   #61
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Default Re: Ertiga, Dzire & Swift: Gearbox Synchronizer Failure

To start with, we will need to collect as much evidence as we can to show the obvious that this is a design issue and not caused by wrong operation of the car. If many people who purchased the Ertiga diesel product are facing the same problem then there is enough proof. At the same time there should be sufficient evidence that owners of inter-cooled turbocharger engine based diesel cars from other manufacturers do not face this costly-to-repair and mental-harassment-causing recurring issue in the gearbox.

I suggest the following steps to make Maruti Suzuki take responsibility and subsequently action for the failure in their product design and selling a faulty expensive product to thousands to gullible buyers who trusted the Maruti Suzuki brand:
  1. Gather a critical mass of 20-25 owners who faced this issue in Maruti Ertiga Diesel. These people should be willing to contribute some amount of time from their daily routine to ensure a just and satisfactory resolution is obtained from the culprits.
  2. Each member of the collective action group should make fairly detailed notes of their personal hardships with this product related to the badly-designed gearbox. These notes should include dates, names of service centres and advisers and conversations with them, bills of repairs done and other life-threatening incidences or any mental torture including productive time wastage experienced because of this issue.
  3. Collect all evidence in this thread or a WhatsApp group formed for this purpose or collect the evidence at multiple mutually-agreed upon members or via a specially created website for the purpose (I can contribute efforts here as I live and breathe IT) with due consideration of each individual member's privacy concerns.
  4. Create a water-tight case with all evidences pointing to the obvious conclusion which is being sold a badly designed product and Maruti Suzuki not taking responsibility for the same
  5. Exercising legal avenues like consumer courts and all other areas of law in which such jurisdiction lies to obtain satisfactory resolution of the issues and fair compensation including valuation of time spend, mental torture and legal fees. If there are more members, each will only have to invest a meagre amount financially or we could look for sharing the compensation with the legal council. I'm sure where there is a will, there is a way.
  6. Try to get the attention of press on this and let other potential buyers know all the facts before they make the mistake of buying such products with their hard-earned money.

It is high-time we stood up for our rights as consumers and set an example by making greedy corporations accountable. Please let me know your thoughts on this.

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Originally Posted by ChaltiKaNaam View Post
Having suffering from the same issue, I agree with you all.
I am not sure why even one customer should suffer because of design blunder / inadequate testing by the manufaturer, in this age of free market and fierce competition.
Started facing this issues intermittantly about a little more than a year back on my 2012 ZDi which was still in warranty then. Have got it serviced always with MASS and of late observed charges are getting exorbitant while quality of service deteriorates with time. I also own a Swift VDi from it's second generation which never has had any succh issue so far (touchwood!).
Point is Maruti Suzuki is taking us Indian customers for granted and it's time we should show them we too can stand up to our rights. It's no longer an oligopoly world where one gets to choose a car out of 3 brands and 5 models!
I have appended my experience on consumercomplaints.in too (unsure how much it will help). Among other options we have is to write to Maruti Customer Service Head possibly with an online petition (/signature campaign of sorts). Secondly write to 3rd parties that can help us connect with the right people with the right momentum considering the gravity of the situation e.g. Pehredar program on CNBC Awaaz etc.
Please do let me know your thoughts and let us work towards actioning this early on.
Thanks,
Ashish
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Old 21st September 2016, 08:19   #62
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Default Re: Ertiga, Dzire & Swift: Gearbox Synchronizer Failure

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Originally Posted by motomaniax View Post
To start with, we will need to collect as much evidence as we can to show the obvious that this is a design issue and not caused by wrong operation of the car. If many people who purchased the Ertiga diesel product are facing the same problem then there is enough proof.
Good initiative there It is as clear as daylight that this is a design issue. So many owners on TBHP itself facing this issue, cannot be driving wrongly and that is a testimony. I also don't see any of the petrol car owners complaining about this issue (please correct me if I am wrong).

Quote:
At the same time there should be sufficient evidence that owners of inter-cooled turbocharger engine based diesel cars from other manufacturers do not face this costly-to-repair and mental-harassment-causing recurring issue in the gearbox.
There are many other cars using the 90ps, 200Nm version of the Fiat's multijet engine. Just to name a few Manza, Vista D90, Zest, Punto, Linea etc. Have never come across any complaints from any of these car owners regarding gearbox issues.
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Old 21st September 2016, 09:04   #63
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Default Re: Ertiga, Dzire & Swift: Gearbox Synchronizer Failure

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So many owners on TBHP itself facing this issue, cannot be driving wrongly and that is a testimony.
That is a wrong assumption Deepak. I really don't see a connection with owners on T-BHP and driving correctly/wrongly here. The issue is not due to a result of a individual driving styles here. By your logic, all of us then have to get the best life from Brake Pads, Clutch and Tires and probably have a totally accident free record .
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I also don't see any of the petrol car owners complaining about this issue (please correct me if I am wrong).
You are right. The problem is limited to Diesel cars only - Whether it is Swift, Dzire or the Ertiga.

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There are many other cars using the 90ps, 200Nm version of the Fiat's multijet engine. Just to name a few Manza, Vista D90, Zest, Punto, Linea etc. Have never come across any complaints from any of these car owners regarding gearbox issues.
Again, No connection to 90ps and 200Nm like you mention here. As you can see the list of cars here, barring Ertiga, the Swift and the Dzire are 75 BHP engines.

In simple words, the problem is with the Gearbox and there is absolutely no connection with the Turbo - Whether Variable or Fixed or the Intercooler. Logically too, it makes no sense to link Intercooler or Turbo with issues related to Gearbox.

The problem here is limited to the Gearbox and specifically the Synchronizer rings between 2<->3 Gears. The resolution is to replace these rings but as a pro-active measure, depending on how much the car has run and the health of the clutch, rings between 1<->2 Gears as well as the entire clutch assembly is replaced so that a worn out clutch should not become another reason for gear slotting issues.

Maruti is very much aware of this issue. There are several Swifts, Dzires and Ertigas that have undergone the Synchronizer ring replacement free of cost under Warranty (Both limited and extended). The owner would have to pay for the clutch from his own pocket.

I was unlucky that I faced this problem for the first time at 97,000 kms when even the extended Warranty had expired but then My car was still running on stock clutch that replacing this was only making more sense at that age when I was paying full labor for dismantling the gearbox anyway.

I have heard cases where this issues has cropped up again mainly because the clutch was not replaced when the rings were but also heard cases where rings have given up despite of the clutch replacement during earlier fixing.

As for me, I spent on the rings as an additional cost as I would have spent for the clutch replacement sooner or later over the next 20,000 kms anyway. If this issue had occurred any earlier, the extended Warranty would have covered it anyway.

But what surprised me is the fact that the issue is not limited to new Gen cars from Maruti. It existed even before that and that indeed is a case of a defective gearbox and nothing else.

Last edited by paragsachania : 21st September 2016 at 09:06.
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Old 21st September 2016, 09:31   #64
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Default Re: Ertiga, Dzire & Swift: Gearbox Synchronizer Failure

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Originally Posted by paragsachania View Post
That is a wrong assumption Deepak. I really don't see a connection with owners on T-BHP and driving correctly/wrongly here. The issue is not due to a result of a individual driving styles here. By your logic, all of us then have to get the best life from Brake Pads, Clutch and Tires and probably have a totally accident free record .
You got me wrong here Parag. What I meant was TBHP members are a fraction of the total car owning public in India. If we have so many people reporting Gearbox Synchronizer Failure here on TBHP itself, I wonder how many there would be outside this forum

Quote:
Again, No connection to 90ps and 200Nm like you mention here. As you can see the list of cars here, barring Ertiga, the Swift and the Dzire are 75 BHP engines.
I stand corrected here. Since majority of the reporting happened for Ertiga, I assumed the problem is peculiar to the higher powered version of the multijet.

Quote:
But what surprised me is the fact that the issue is not limited to new Gen cars from Maruti. It existed even before that and that indeed is a case of a defective gearbox and nothing else.
That makes it a strong case for redesigning the gear-box components and recalling the faulty ones and getting them replaced with the new design one. If the affected TBHP members here form a kind of pressure group and influence the manufacturer to take cognizance of this issue and compel them for a recall then I think that would be the best use of this forum
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Old 21st September 2016, 09:40   #65
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Default Re: Ertiga, Dzire & Swift: Gearbox Synchronizer Failure

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Originally Posted by AutoIndian View Post
I stand corrected here. Since majority of the reporting happened for Ertiga, I assumed the problem is peculiar to the higher powered version of the multijet.
The issue started with Swift and Dzire and then Ertiga got added to this list. Surprisingly, SX4 never had this issue and nor the Ritz.

Brezza and Ciaz are the latest cars but I have not heard about this from Ciaz owners that I know who have crossed 50,000 kms already.

Like you said, it is high time MSIL is put under pressure by a group of individuals and address this. Although it does make owners sit quite when this gets replaced under warranty, there will be a quite a few like me who faced this issue out of warranty too.

Again, reports of these issues would be less from the crowd right here on the forum as they mostly sell/upgrade their cars after driving less than a lac kms too and they may have never faced this issue during their entire ownership period.
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Old 21st September 2016, 09:55   #66
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Default Re: Ertiga, Dzire & Swift: Gearbox Synchronizer Failure

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Originally Posted by paragsachania View Post
The issue started with Swift and Dzire and then Ertiga got added to this list. Surprisingly, SX4 never had this issue and nor the Ritz.

Brezza and Ciaz are the latest cars but I have not heard about this from Ciaz owners that I know who have crossed 50,000 kms already.

Like you said, it is high time MSIL is put under pressure by a group of individuals and address this. Although it does make owners sit quite when this gets replaced under warranty, there will be a quite a few like me who faced this issue out of warranty too.

Again, reports of these issues would be less from the crowd right here on the forum as they mostly sell/upgrade their cars after driving less than a lac kms too and they may have never faced this issue during their entire ownership period.
Sx4 (D) is certainly not excluded, I got my rings changed at 47k Kms (under warranty), there are few other members who got their rings changed of Sx4 (D)

As per my conversation with the SA, its because of sheer torqueof Diesel engines, rings fail pre-maturely. Maruti, purely saved the cost not my recalling the cars offering free replacement.
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Old 21st September 2016, 10:06   #67
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Default Re: Ertiga, Dzire & Swift: Gearbox Synchronizer Failure

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Originally Posted by amitpunjani View Post
Maruti, purely saved the cost not my recalling the cars offering free replacement.
Again, I am not sure if merely recalling and replacing the rings would have solved it all. After all, we have seen cases of these rings failing again, over a period of time.

A recall here would make complete sense if they reworked on the gearbox and resolved this issue for good.

And regarding the inclusion of SX4 (D), this is certainly something I haven't come across. I have 2 friends (one is a BHPian) who drive the SX4 Diesel and one of them has crossed 1.2 Lac kms and hasn't faced this issue even once.
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Old 21st September 2016, 11:35   #68
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Default Re: Ertiga, Dzire & Swift: Gearbox Synchronizer Failure

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Originally Posted by paragsachania View Post
Again, I am not sure if merely recalling and replacing the rings would have solved it all. After all, we have seen cases of these rings failing again, over a period of time.

A recall here would make complete sense if they reworked on the gearbox and resolved this issue for good.

And regarding the inclusion of SX4 (D), this is certainly something I haven't come across. I have 2 friends (one is a BHPian) who drive the SX4 Diesel and one of them has crossed 1.2 Lac kms and hasn't faced this issue even once.
Had the synchro rings (1-2, 2-3) changed on the Ertiga 3 weeks back, car had run 65k kms, absolutely no issues with clutch but had to change the clutch as well, considering the cost of labour for a potential clutch replacement down the line. Have never faced this issue with 90k run 2007 Feb Swift Vdi.
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Old 22nd September 2016, 23:27   #69
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Default Re: Ertiga, Dzire & Swift: Gearbox Synchronizer Failure

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Originally Posted by paragsachania View Post

Like you said, it is high time MSIL is put under pressure by a group of individuals and address this. Although it does make owners sit quite when this gets replaced under warranty, there will be a quite a few like me who faced this issue out of warranty too.

Again, reports of these issues would be less from the crowd right here on the forum as they mostly sell/upgrade their cars after driving less than a lac kms too and they may have never faced this issue during their entire ownership period.
I have this problem out of warranty now. When I was getting the synchronizers replaced, the service adviser was strongly recommending to get the clutch replaced. I was adamant that he first make me understand the relation of a clutch to the synchronizers getting worn out. As I understand when the clutch is depressed, the transmission is disengaged. And my stock clutch still feels good as new and all the other gears work perfectly fine. I found a related article regarding this at http://www.jackstransmissions.com/pa...kills-synchros . This basically says, if the clutch drags, then it can hurt the synchronizers. Which makes sense. However, as the article states, I did the clutch drag test and my clutch does not drag even minutely.

When I did the repairs at about 39K kms, I refused to change the clutch. As a matter of principle I refused to pay for the clutch above warranty and so they did not replace it as it is a so-called 'wear-and-tear' part. As predicted, I faced the same problem again at about 46K kms. I have driven cars in the past and never have I seen a working clutch causing damage to a gearbox let alone a worn out one.

If I had replaced the clutch, what was the guarantee that this issue would not have cropped up again as has happened for others? Does it become my fault to refuse to replace the clutch when my car was under warranty? This is the quagmire I find myself in. Can we get some expert opinion on what exactly is going on in the Ertiga gearbox that is causing this repeated problem and what is the final solution to this problem that we should expect from the culprit company?
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Old 24th September 2016, 23:08   #70
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Default Re: Ertiga, Dzire & Swift: Gearbox Synchronizer Failure

Hi , I have a 47000km done Ertiga Vxi green. Lately after last 40000km service gear slotting has become a bit of unpleasant chore. I feel vibrations on the clutch as the car accelerates and something feels not quite right as I get vibrations on the floor also. Have checked all foundations. All ok. Engine tuning is ok. With clean throttle body , new air filter and plugs. I get a sort of loose bearing knocking sound in the morning till car warms up. The service station guys haven't been able to figure out. The gear problem and the increased nvh and increased rpm for same speed feels like something to do with clutch and gear. Could it be synchro issue discussed here ? @ 40000km? In a car which is extremely well maintained ? I think it got worse after gear oil change last service. Like they used a thicker grade oil or something. Gear slotting has lost all slickness.
The pickup is also reduced to some extent and the car just doesn't feel smooth anymore. There is some grinding somewhere and it has nothing to do with engine or the wheels.

Last edited by HIGHNOON : 24th September 2016 at 23:15.
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Old 25th September 2016, 14:37   #71
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Default Re: Ertiga, Dzire & Swift: Gearbox Synchronizer Failure

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Hi , I have a 47000km done Ertiga Vxi green. Lately after last 40000km service gear slotting has become a bit of unpleasant chore. I feel vibrations on the clutch as the car accelerates and something feels not quite right as I get vibrations on the floor also. Have checked all foundations. All ok. Engine tuning is ok. With clean throttle body , new air filter and plugs. I get a sort of loose bearing knocking sound in the morning till car warms up. The service station guys haven't been able to figure out. The gear problem and the increased nvh and increased rpm for same speed feels like something to do with clutch and gear. Could it be synchro issue discussed here ? @ 40000km? In a car which is extremely well maintained ? I think it got worse after gear oil change last service. Like they used a thicker grade oil or something. Gear slotting has lost all slickness.
The pickup is also reduced to some extent and the car just doesn't feel smooth anymore. There is some grinding somewhere and it has nothing to do with engine or the wheels.
This does not seem to be similar to the issue we are facing here. The synchronise issue in discussion here blocks the gear from slotting from 3rd to 2nd for Ertiga diesels and other Maruti cars with diesel engines. I think you should take this issue up with the service centre and if they fail to oblige, then escalate this. It seems to be a totally unrelated problem.
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Old 25th September 2016, 15:15   #72
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Default Re: Ertiga, Dzire & Swift: Gearbox Synchronizer Failure

Well shifting gears has become hard , vibrations on clutch pedal and even brake , reduced power and smoothness . Overall increased NVH. I don't know what this is it's not typical weakened clutch symptoms.
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Old 25th September 2016, 18:24   #73
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Default Re: Ertiga, Dzire & Swift: Gearbox Synchronizer Failure

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Well shifting gears has become hard , vibrations on clutch pedal and even brake , reduced power and smoothness . Overall increased NVH. I don't know what this is it's not typical weakened clutch symptoms.
Not at all related to the issue here. You know it's the Synchronizer Ring issue the moment you are just unable to change from 3rd to 2nd or at times 2nd to 1st when in motion. The gear stick doesn't move as if it's hit a wall and won't move till you declutch and clutch again and fool the system by shifting to 4th or 1st.

Your symptoms are partially related to worn out clutch that has good impact on acceleration.

How many kms has your Ertiga done so far on this clutch?
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Old 25th September 2016, 19:46   #74
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Default Re: Ertiga, Dzire & Swift: Gearbox Synchronizer Failure

Hi paragsachania,
Shifting all gears is hard now specially second to first . Even first to second is not slick like before .
Current odo is 47000km but the symptoms had started at about 39 k but shifting issue got worse after gear oil change at 40 k km. I feel it may be because of thicker grade of oil used at automotive Nerul . It may be weakened clutch but it is otherwise ok . The grinding vibration felt on clutch pedal is irritating .
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Old 25th September 2016, 23:24   #75
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Default Re: Ertiga, Dzire & Swift: Gearbox Synchronizer Failure

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Originally Posted by paragsachania View Post

And regarding the inclusion of SX4 (D), this is certainly something I haven't come across. I have 2 friends (one is a BHPian) who drive the SX4 Diesel and one of them has crossed 1.2 Lac kms and hasn't faced this issue even once.
Well my SX4(D) has had its syncro changed twice till 1.27 lacs. Once at 38k and once at 88k. The SA tells me its normal in Delhi NCR cars to have it changed once in 40k.
Maruti is taking us for a royal ride here when people are asked to change the clutch plate, pressure plate and bearing with it. A total of about 18k with labour of a whooping 4k.
Not sure how long the current one will hold. In my entire ownership experience of SX4 for 1.27lacs and counting this is the only running repair I had to do.
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