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Old 9th April 2015, 18:34   #16
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Default Re: No boost from Turbocharger

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Originally Posted by novice View Post
The car is May 2011 model with 45000 kms on the Odo. Everything was fine until a week ago. I left the car in a garage in HSR Layout for a small suspension work. The next morning I noticed Turbo not working. The mechanic was acting little suspicious but I have no conclusive proof. I do realise there is no point in doing a post mortem on that.

This is my first turbo car and I have no clue on how to go about troubleshooting the problem. I have couple of questions to experts out here, please help me.



1) How do I diagnose the problem and conclude that the turbo needs to be replaced?


2) Can it be repaired?




3) Any suggestions on a good independent garage in Bangalore who can work on Turbos
4) Worst case scenario - What is the damage I should expect if I goto Skoda dealer.


Please help me to get the car back to it's glory with minimal monetary damage.

Thanks.

PS: Mods..Please don't close the thread. I did use the search function but couldn't find what I need.

If the turbo shaft is cut then there is a probablity that all the engine oil will be going into the engine and the engine might race without you giving the accelerator along with blue white smoke and lot of knocking. Since you have not mentioned this I presume that some pipe between the turbo intercooler and inlet manifold has come loose or cut.

So I rule out a conked Turbo.

Drive the car on a road which has walls on both the sides with windows rolled down. Now if any of hoses between the turbo intercooler and inlet manifold have come loose or cut then you will hear whooosh sound of the air.


If what I say is true then this is a ver minor problem and can be rectified very easily.
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Old 9th April 2015, 19:39   #17
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Default Re: No boost from Turbocharger

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Originally Posted by novice View Post
....But they are saying there is considerable play in the shaft. I could see the play but I don't know how much is too much. Taking it to a turbo rebuilder on JC road.
Well, there can be some amount of plan along the horizontal axis. However, any play above the tolerance limit, indicates the turbo bushes shot, and this basically means, oil in the intake or exhaust manifold.

Also, the most important thing you should consider is that, this particular turbo problem will not crop up overnight. It's over a period of time the turbo bushes wear off and play comes in. You - had a problem overnight, as I understand?

Well, one problem could be, the inter-cooler chocked up with oil resulting in the engine performing like the turbo is shot. I had the same problem in the Manza. Cleaning the Intercooler, and the plumbing brought back the car.

Quote:
What should I do? Should I go for the rebuild or go for a new unit. I want the engine to perform to its full potential. Would a rebuild live up to the expectation?
Meanwhile, if you want to rebuild a turbo, yes, a rebuild will work perfectly fine. Just as good as new.
Quote:
Originally Posted by narendra.vw View Post
...
Please don't go for rebuild. At the least, you can go for a second hand from a trusted place.
A second hand turbo is never reliable. Think of it, turbo is part of an engine, why would someone sell a turbo, without the engine, or vice versa?

Also, a turbo rebuild basically means replacing the entire core assy (not for huge turbos) which makes the turbo as good as brand new. Only the shell is used, which is just a housing for the compressor.
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Old 9th April 2015, 21:28   #18
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Default Re: No boost from Turbocharger

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Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
Not quite sure what you mean. How many codes did you get, which ones. Did you use a generic code reader or a manufacturer specific?

At this point in time, I'm not even sure whether it is the turbo or turbo related at all. But I understand you are at a workshop, lets see what they say. Hope they can find the problem

Jeroen
There was a single error code which was read using a generic reader.

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Originally Posted by narendra.vw View Post
If the engine is losing oil drastically through exhaust, Then the play in the turbine shaft comes into play. Remove the inlet hose see if any oil residue is present in the hose or inter cooler & how much? they are the tell tale sign of a worn shaft.
Please don't go for rebuild. At the least, you can go for a second hand from a trusted place.
Took the turbo unit to Ash Turbo located bang opposite to Urvashi theatre. They opened it in my presence and their assessment is that there is considerable oil leakage. They told me that turbo needs to be rebuilt with a new core from KKK. They would let me know the price tomorrow. The other option would be to go for a brand new unit for 72k.

The engine was indeed using more oil (700 to 800ml per 1000kms) over the past few months but there was no visible oil leakage anywhere. I would ask the garage folks to check for oil in exhaust and intercooler. Also the oil in turbo was thick and dark in color. I service the car as per scheduled service intervals and top up oil whenever oil level goes low. I am not sure why the oil is in such condition. The other thing that puzzles me is the way turbo failed all of a sudden. It was giving good boost until few days back and then suddenly gone without any early symptoms.

If there is oil in exhaust would there be any damage to cataytic converter? Also would it be safe if I go for a rebuild with a new core? What are the possible issues that may crop up with a rebuilt unit.

Last edited by novice : 9th April 2015 at 21:41.
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Old 10th April 2015, 07:03   #19
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Default Re: No boost from Turbocharger

There is one procedure for turbo cars, it is to idle the engine for 30 seconds or so before switching it off, especially when you have been driving hard. This allows the turbo to cool down. If this is not followed with rigorous care, the heat of the turbo 'burns' the oil i.e. 'cokes' it, turns it to carbon. That WILL shorten the life of your turbo considerably. If you have not been following this, you are lucky your turbo lasted as long as it did.

There are aftermarket 'turbo timers' available to help you with this procedure, if it is difficult for you to remember to do this every single time.

Last edited by 1self : 10th April 2015 at 07:06.
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Old 10th April 2015, 08:38   #20
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Default Re: No boost from Turbocharger

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Originally Posted by 1self View Post
There is one procedure for turbo cars, it is to idle the engine for 30 seconds or so before switching it off, especially when you have been driving hard. This allows the turbo to cool down. If this is not followed with rigorous care, the heat of the turbo 'burns' the oil i.e. 'cokes' it, turns it to carbon. That WILL shorten the life of your turbo considerably. If you have not been following this, you are lucky your turbo lasted as long as it did.
I doubt that very much. The idling rule for turbo's for cars stems from a long time ago. These days very few require it. Check you owners manual, and if it doesnt mention it, you dont need to idle it.

There is a long interesting thread on the forum:

http://www.team-bhp.com/tech-stuff/i...o-charged-cars

You will see some who favour the rule and some, like me, who dont think it is relevant at all. When in doubt, consult the car manual, not the internet!

Never the less, the original problem as reported is quite a puzzle. I would still like to understand what code it threw. MIght be an indication. Although it does seem there is something with the turbo I dont see the immediate correlation between the problem occuring overnight and the possible wear of the turbo seals. So I still suspect it is something completely different.

So if you get the turbo fixed/replaced it might still leave you with the original problem.

The engine oil consumption is high. As a rough rule of thumb I usually start opening up an engine when it starts using more than 1 l per 1000 km. You are well below, but it still uses a lot. If it doesnt leak out, you can be pretty sure it leaves via the exhaust. I think the engine shows some potential wear, but I can't make the correlation to the overnight problem.

What is remarkable is that you don't have a CEL. Usually with something like this you would see the CEL as it tends to affect the emmission big time. Is you CEL light working, check with the ignition on, if it lights up on the Dashboard.

Various members have made some very good suggestions on inspecting various things, from air filter to various hoses etc. Have you done all of those.

Would be good if you can get it hooked up to a manufacturer specific OBD analyzer. You might find a specific code. Also, those analyzer often come with a lot of "life" measurement of all sort of parameters. Good place to start looking for something out of the ordinary!

My money would still be on something mechanical, e.g. some leak, some valve sticking or a problem with a sensor, hence electronics.

Good luck, let us know how you get on.

Jeroen
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Old 10th April 2015, 09:04   #21
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Default Re: No boost from Turbocharger

What does the map sensor say? How much is the boost under load?
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Old 10th April 2015, 09:54   #22
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Default Re: No boost from Turbocharger

To,novice
The kind of symptoms your Turbo is facing, itís time to replace or rebuilt. Itís your personal call.
You have gone to the right person for a rebuilt. Make sure they use authentic service kit(turbine shaft & the bushes). if they replace the main core as a set still better. Balancing?
Get the inter cooler, EGR valve & the inlet manifold cleaned.
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Old 10th April 2015, 11:24   #23
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Default Re: No boost from Turbocharger

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Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
I doubt that very much. The idling rule for turbo's for cars stems from a long time ago. These days very few require it. Check you owners manual, and if it doesnt mention it, you dont need to idle it.
There's no room for doubt. The VAG's 1.8 TSI is as cutting-edge a petrol engine as they come in the mass market. Here's an extract from the owner's manual of the engine being discussed here:

No boost from Turbocharger-capture.png

Quote:
http://www.team-bhp.com/tech-stuff/idling-rule-turbo-charged-cars[/url]

You will see some who favour the rule and some, like me, who dont think it is relevant at all. When in doubt, consult the car manual, not the internet!
Take a look at that thread and you'll see a lot more owner's manuals recommending the same thing.

End of the day, what have you got to lose? To me, it is logical to idle the engine.....especially since so many manufacturers recommend it too. For the ones that don't, neither do they categorically tell you "NOT TO" idle the engine after a drive.

In summary, 50% of the owner's manuals I've seen tell me to idle the engine. But not a single one tells me NOT TO.
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Old 10th April 2015, 13:31   #24
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Default Re: No boost from Turbocharger

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Take a look at that thread and you'll see a lot more owner's manuals recommending the same thing.

End of the day, what have you got to lose? To me, it is logical to idle the engine.....especially since so many manufacturers recommend it too. For the ones that don't, neither do they categorically tell you "NOT TO" idle the engine after a drive.

In summary, 50% of the owner's manuals I've seen tell me to idle the engine. But not a single one tells me NOT TO.
Glad to see you are in full agreement with my earlier statement "always go by the manual and not by the internet!" I'm also glad to see that you actually do read manuals when the need arises I assume, contrary to your earlier statement:

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...ml#post3649635 (10 reasons why you should read your car's owners manual)

I agree there is nothing to lose, as I said in that very same idling rule thread. If it makes you happy, comfortable, by all means idle away.

Statistically speaking though, the vast majority of turbo engine car owner actually aren't even remotely aware there is such a thing as an idling rule. And as discussed in the "reasons for reading your car manual thread" I get the impression few people do read the manual to start with.

Still, not to many problems out there in the market with turbo's due to lack of idling.

But again, I maintain my oftern voiced stand, read the manual, don't take to much notice of the internet and make sure you enjoy your car!

Now, trying to get back onto topic, what is wrong with this particular engine and or turbo? Is this a (rare) case of damage due no idling, or is it something else?

Jeroen
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Old 10th April 2015, 13:55   #25
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Default Re: No boost from Turbocharger

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Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
.. Is this a (rare) case of damage due no idling, or is it something else? ..
Strange that you think a turbo bush wearing out is rare!!.. IMO, all oil cooled turbos with a bush, need idling.

Turbo spins at more than 1 lack rpm at full boost. Shut the engine off, and it still spins. The engine oil pressure which is used to lubricate the bushes, is generated only when the engine is on, once it is off, oil pressure stops and lubrication stops.

That is the reason on a visit to any Maruti or Tata A.S.S, you will see the customary intercooler cleaning in plenty, and intake plumbing all coated with engine oil - Contrary to your statement, that turbo damage due to no idling is rare.

EDIT: I'm not going offtopic on a "do turbos need idling discussion" Just wanted to clarify that, damage due to not idling is not rare, its pretty common.

Last edited by dhanushs : 10th April 2015 at 13:56.
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Old 10th April 2015, 14:40   #26
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Default Re: No boost from Turbocharger

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Originally Posted by novice View Post
But they are saying there is considerable play in the shaft. I could see the play but I don't know how much is too much.
Thanks.
If you could see/ feel the play, then, definitely it is a major issue (clearance in the rotating part may go in to microns !). Rebuilt Turbo performance depends on the skill/ infrastructure available. Also, let us know which Garage in HSR, the one near the bus depot is notorious
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Old 10th April 2015, 15:14   #27
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Default Re: No boost from Turbocharger

The garage that attended to your suspension job, do you think they took the car for a joy ride and destroyed the turbo while they were at it? Do they have the ability or knowledge to swap the turbo? I ask cause you said the mechanic acted suspicious. He is probably the best person to ask if anything mechanical was damaged while your car was in their garage.
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Old 10th April 2015, 15:35   #28
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Default Re: No boost from Turbocharger

Quote:
Originally Posted by novice View Post
The car is May 2011 model with 45000 kms on the Odo. Everything was fine until a week ago. I left the car in a garage in HSR Layout for a small suspension work. The next morning I noticed Turbo not working. The mechanic was acting little suspicious but I have no conclusive proof. I do realise there is no point in doing a post mortem on that.

This is my first turbo car and I have no clue on how to go about troubleshooting the problem. I have couple of questions to experts out here, please help me.

1) How do I diagnose the problem and conclude that the turbo needs to be replaced?
2) Can it be repaired?
3) Any suggestions on a good independent garage in Bangalore who can work on Turbos
4) Worst case scenario - What is the damage I should expect if I goto Skoda dealer.

Please help me to get the car back to it's glory with minimal monetary damage.

Thanks.

PS: Mods..Please don't close the thread. I did use the search function but couldn't find what I need.
Do you mind telling us the car make as well? Or iam missing it anywhere in the thread? That would help the members here suggest you a good garage.
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Old 10th April 2015, 16:14   #29
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Default Re: No boost from Turbocharger

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Originally Posted by spyder_p8 View Post
Do you mind telling us the car make as well? Or iam missing it anywhere in the thread? That would help the members here suggest you a good garage.
Sorry. ..it was in the thread title but later changed by mods. The engine is 1.8 tsi with DSG doing duty on a Skoda Superb.

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Originally Posted by TurboGuru View Post
If you could see/ feel the play, then, definitely it is a major issue (clearance in the rotating part may go in to microns !). Rebuilt Turbo performance depends on the skill/ infrastructure available. Also, let us know which Garage in HSR, the one near the bus depot is notorious
Yes..it is the same garage. Also going by what I read and heard the play in the shaft is indeed on higher side.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sandeepmohan View Post
The garage that attended to your suspension job, do you think they took the car for a joy ride and destroyed the turbo while they were at it? Do they have the ability or knowledge to swap the turbo? I ask cause you said the mechanic acted suspicious. He is probably the best person to ask if anything mechanical was damaged while your car was in their garage.
I don't think that is the case. I asked people at Bay6 to look for any signs of recent spanner marks on the Turbo and their answer was no. So I am not sure if that garage had done anything. But my impression is that the guy running the place is not honest.

Last edited by novice : 10th April 2015 at 16:26.
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Old 11th April 2015, 06:07   #30
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Default Re: No boost from Turbocharger

Go to Automechs near Jaksandra, it is really near HSR Layout. Meet Navin bhai there. I trust him with my eyes closed.
Many other Bhpians have vouched for his abilities. See this thread: http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/bangal...bangalore.html (Automotive Garage - Automechs (Koramangala, Bangalore))

You may want to call him up before going to know if he is available, contact him at 9243401466. Tell him that you are a Teambhpian, he will know how to treat you
You can tell him that Ashish, the White Petrol Swift guy gave his contact information to you.
Thank me after he resolves/helps you fix your problem.
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