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Old 18th June 2015, 09:50   #1
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Thumbs down SIAM says BS-VI emission norms will compromise vehicle safety!

SIAM (a club of car manufacturers) basically opposes anything that affects the bottomline of the auto makers.

When Marutis failed crash tests, SIAM was quick to defend them - related thread (Maruti Swift, Datsun Go fail Global NCAP tests too...)

SIAM opposed crash tests as it'll result in costlier cars & 'aggressive drivers' - related thread (Indian Government to water down car safety standards!)

When new fuel efficiency norms were approved, SIAM opposed them - related thread (PMO approves new fuel efficiency standards; SIAM unhappy)

Thankfully, as we've seen from the recent budget, the SIAM has little lobbying power at the center. If it were left up to them, we wouldn't have seen Bharat-Stage norms at all, leave aside BS-IV.

The government recently announced that it's thinking of jumping directly from BS-IV to BS-VI emission norms by 2020. Now, here's another jewel released by SIAM. For a body that vehemently opposes crash tests & safety standards, I'm pleasantly surprised to see the SIAM suddenly caring so much about safety. Full statement:

Quote:
Leapfrogging directly to BS VI norms could lead to Safety Compromises in Vehicles

Skipping the BS V emission norm and moving directly to BS VI emission norms for vehicles could lead to major safety compromises in vehicles. While the BS V and BS VI fuels are basically the same, the vehicular technologies are vastly different and have to be sequentially developed, tested and validated with each stage taking 4 to 4.5 years. That is also the reason why other countries have first implemented the Euro 5 norm and moved to Euro VI only after proper validation and stabilisation of the Euro V technologies, while the fuel was already available.

“Notwithstanding the lead time required, industry has proposed an accelerated timeline for introducing BS V to 2019 and BS VI by 2023, as against 2020 and 2024 proposed by the Expert Committee on Auto Fuel Vision & Policy,” said Mr Vikram Kirloskar, President, SIAM.

“Vehicles have to operate as a complete system and emission technologies have a close linkage with safety as well as fuel efficiency parameters both of which are covered by other mandatory regulations of Government. So, while the environmentalists may look at emissions in isolation as standalone plug-in technologies, the auto industry and the global technology providers will never put any vehicle in the market without properly validating the safety, reliability and the regulatory conformance of the vehicle as a complete system. There is no room for shortcuts and knee jerk reactions where safety is concerned,” Mr. Kirloskar added.

The danger of compressing the timeframes is the risk of putting an inadequately validated technology on the Indian roads, which will lead to safety issues in vehicles like un-intended acceleration or fires which may arise due to improper regeneration of the Particulate Trap, if the process is not adequately tested and validated in Indian Road condition. which could put the life of the consumer at risk. In such unfortunate incidents, the people of India will ask the question why the auto industry has introduced a technology on the Indian roads without proper validation and does this not amount to negligence by the industry. Industry would have no defence and the liabilities on the industry would be huge. This is not an acceptable situation for the industry.

Moving from BS III emission norms to BS V emission norms itself, improves PM emission further by upto 90% from the BS III level. Further upgradation to BS VI only offers an incremental 0-10% advantage in PM emissions, which is definitely not worth the safety risk involved in skipping the BS V stage.

“Why should we wait for BS VI till the year 2020 when we can achieve 90% reduction in vehicular pollution with BS V stage one year earlier in 2019. The proposal of SIAM of advancing to BS V in 2019 and to BS VI in 2023 is the best solution from the environment and safety point of view. I am sure that Government will not prescribe a policy which puts the industry in a position where vehicular safety has to be compromised in any way” said Mr Kirloskar.
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Old 18th June 2015, 10:16   #2
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Default Re: SIAM says BS-VI emission norms will compromise vehicle safety!

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
SIAM (a club of car manufacturers) basically opposes anything that affects the bottomline of the auto makers.
Club? Cabal might be more appropriate, based on those links you've provided

Quote:
While the BS V and BS VI fuels are basically the same, the vehicular technologies are vastly different and have to be sequentially developed, tested and validated with each stage taking 4 to 4.5 years.
<snip>
Moving from BS III emission norms to BS V emission norms itself, improves PM emission further by upto 90% from the BS III level. Further upgradation to BS VI only offers an incremental 0-10% advantage in PM emissions
I know this isn't a rational argument from SIAM, but I have to ask: isn't there an inherent contradiction in their statement? Each cycle takes approximately 4 years, but one cycle delivers 90% benefit and another only 10%? Yes, there is the whole thing about diminishing returns but SIAM's argument doesn't sound convincing.

Moreover, aren't emission norms between Europe and India roughly similar? It's not like they're being asked to do something radical like spitting out daisies from the tailpipes. So, why would it be that hard to adapt and test them.

Maybe I'm being too harsh on the auto manufacturers. Between putting stickers and new headlights on facelifted models, running roadshows to demo new cars, adding silly gadgetry, there might be precious little R&D budget left to evolve engine technology. Cut them some slack. Now excuse me, one of those manufacturers has announced a new special edition. With go-faster stripes. Yay!

Last edited by arunphilip : 18th June 2015 at 10:18.
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Old 18th June 2015, 10:18   #3
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Default Re: SIAM says BS-VI emission norms will compromise vehicle safety!

With SIAM's past record this gem is quite predictable.

After reading almost daily news reports about worsening pollution levels in Delhi, I hope Govt. is not swayed by this. Even Beijing has started taking measures to control air pollution, and some reports indicate that Delhi air maybe worse than Beijing. The recent article by an American journalist as to why he was shifting back to US from Delhi for the sake of his kids' health was an eyeopener for me.

For those of us who belong to NCR and have young kids, reports indicating that increasing air pollution is causing shortening of life spans and breathing disorders in kids are truly harrowing.

I hope better sense prevails.
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Old 18th June 2015, 10:22   #4
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Default Re: SIAM says BS-VI emission norms will compromise vehicle safety!

This is priceless excuse to cover up own incompetency. This is even better than Ex Transport Minister's campaign against Supreme Court's order to convert DTC fleet and other public buses to CNG.

These learned gentlemen behave as if they are going to develop engines from scratch and nothing will be borrowed from already existing technology from west.
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Old 18th June 2015, 11:14   #5
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Default Re: SIAM says BS-VI emission norms will compromise vehicle safety!

Quote:
“Vehicles have to operate as a complete system and emission technologies have a close linkage with safety as well as fuel efficiency parameters both of which are covered by other mandatory regulations of Government. So, while the environmentalists may look at emissions in isolation as standalone plug-in technologies, the auto industry and the global technology providers will never put any vehicle in the market without properly validating the safety, reliability and the regulatory conformance of the vehicle as a complete system. There is no room for shortcuts and knee jerk reactions where safety is concerned,” Mr. Kirloskar added.

The danger of compressing the timeframes is the risk of putting an inadequately validated technology on the Indian roads, which will lead to safety issues in vehicles like un-intended acceleration or fires which may arise due to improper regeneration of the Particulate Trap, if the process is not adequately tested and validated in Indian Road condition. which could put the life of the consumer at risk. In such unfortunate incidents, the people of India will ask the question why the auto industry has introduced a technology on the Indian roads without proper validation and does this not amount to negligence by the industry. Industry would have no defence and the liabilities on the industry would be huge. This is not an acceptable situation for the industry.
Ok so he does make a valid point about how meeting the BS spec is also linked to vehicle safety.

BUT he is presenting a wrong picture when he says "the vehicular technologies are vastly different and have to be sequentially developed, tested and validated with each stage taking 4 to 4.5 years"

It means 4-5 years are required for any new BS stage.
So that means even if I jump from BS4 to BS6, it will take the same amount of time (4-5 years).

What is his problem then?
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Old 18th June 2015, 11:50   #6
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Default Re: SIAM says BS-VI emission norms will compromise vehicle safety!

I really don't know whether to laugh or cry. I am thinking along these lines: Govt announces newer emission norms and now, SIAM needs to make sure vehicles being sold in India will have to adhere to these norms. Now, this 4-5 year time frame seems alright. So are they saying if we go to BS6, it would skip a generation (BS5) and hence would take 10 years to bring into fruition? What is even more ludicrous is the statement of a fire hazard. They already have technology which is in place by the manufacturers where their vehicles are sold elsewhere.
I really dont see the problem in implementing this other than pure lackadaisical attitude which they have made a habit.
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Old 18th June 2015, 12:53   #7
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Default Re: SIAM says BS-VI emission norms will compromise vehicle safety!

Well, I'm not surprised. SIAM is "Society of Indian Automobile Manufacturers".

Their mandate is to protect the interests of their members.

To meet BS VI norms would mean SIAM members spending significant amounts of money on upgrading their current engines. Which automobile firm will willingly commit to increasing their expenditure when they can very easily lobby with the politicians and scuttle the move or at least delay it?

Mr.Kirloskar is actually an extremely intelligent person. He is just trying to safeguard the interest of his members, the environment and public be damned.
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Old 18th June 2015, 12:54   #8
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Default Re: SIAM says BS-VI emission norms will compromise vehicle safety!

Rubbish! This is why we need a strong independent regulator who will not shy away from calling a spade a spade.

Self regulation has NEVER worked effectively in any car industry (or in many others) across the world.

Even in so-called developed countries such as the US, the car industry association has consistently blocked innovation in safety and emissions standards unless forced to. The Brits and the Europeans are less shameless and more green oriented and do tend to adopt radical standards and moves.

Starting from Ralph Nader and his 'Unsafe at any speed' campaigns to the modern day fight to raise Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) standards, the US has always mucked around to the benefit of car manufacturers.

Here in India, we should not allow this tripe from the SIAM cabal to block genuine moves by the GoI! Ultimately, it may need another radical National Green Tribunal (NGT) order to spur things starting from the improving air quality in Indian metros or the Rohtang Pass :-)

We need a strong independent regulator NOW!
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Old 18th June 2015, 12:59   #9
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Default Re: SIAM says BS-VI emission norms will compromise vehicle safety!

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
SIAM (a club of car manufacturers) basically opposes anything that affects the bottomline of the auto makers.

The government recently announced that it's thinking of jumping directly from BS-IV to BS-VI emission norms by 2020. Now, here's another jewel released by SIAM. For a body that vehemently opposes crash tests & safety standards, I'm pleasantly surprised to see the SIAM suddenly caring so much about safety. Full statement:
Did not feel good to see that SIAM opposes direct jump to BS VI.

One question in my mind: Their reasoning about safety compromise does not sound convincing. Then what might be the root cause (which they do not seem to disclose) behind their opposition to the proposed direct jump to BS VI?
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Old 19th June 2015, 06:27   #10
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Default Re: SIAM says BS-VI emission norms will compromise vehicle safety!

Nice take GTO. I love the pun in your argument and yes, we need people to question their decisions, be it of the SIAM or be it the MOEF.
Why isn't the Government worried about the 60 million vehicles on the Indian roads that never meet any criteria of BS norms? In one of my recent conferences at the ECMA, I have always volleyed about the smoke pumping engines running on the Indian roads, where in we still stick to BS1 Norms on emission tests. And has any Govt body every cared how reliable these so called PUC centers are, with bulk of them short circuiting their PUC sensors and giving imaginary values so as to reduce their running costs on sensor replacements?
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Old 19th June 2015, 10:29   #11
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Default Re: SIAM says BS-VI emission norms will compromise vehicle safety!

I am all for the leapfrog to Euro-VI. Will our oil refineries (with one exception) be able to provide Euro-VI fuels? I also want this BS-III in mofussil towns and BS-IV is select cities to go. Make it the same nationwide!
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Old 19th June 2015, 11:04   #12
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Default Re: SIAM says BS-VI emission norms will compromise vehicle safety!

+1 to @sgiitk - we need "One nation one fuel standard"

I keep wondering what SIAM's agenda is ? Why do they oppose almost anything that is proposed with the intent of improving things in the long-term
The biggest one is their opposition to safety features and now on fuel standards and they even relate the two!

And their society's name (!) gets me thinking what's the relation with "SIAMese" ?

Last edited by NPV : 19th June 2015 at 11:06.
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Old 19th June 2015, 11:10   #13
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Default Re: SIAM says BS-VI emission norms will compromise vehicle safety!

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Originally Posted by sgiitk View Post
I am all for the leapfrog to Euro-VI. Will our oil refineries (with one exception) be able to provide Euro-VI fuels? I also want this BS-III in mofussil towns and BS-IV is select cities to go. Make it the same nationwide!
There is no difference between Euro5 and Euro6 fuel.
All previous Euro/BS standards will no longer be applicable anywhere once we reach the year 2022-24 (still under hearing)

BTW, the Euro5 was slated for phase-wise implementation beginning 2017. SO I don't understand the whole brouhaha by SIAM.
The refiners are not making any issue because they are Euro5 ready (and those who are not, have means to become).
Going from E5 to E6 entails only engine modifications. Therefore extra work to be done by the Auto manufacturers.

Perhaps SIAM is cribbing about Euro6 implementation starting 2017? But I can't find any fact that corroborates with this fear.

Last edited by alpha1 : 19th June 2015 at 11:34.
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Old 19th June 2015, 21:15   #14
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Default Re: SIAM says BS-VI emission norms will compromise vehicle safety!

It is a joke - the SIAM is a Society of Indian Automobile Money Makers (SIAMM).

Next, if BS VI is forced down upon their throats, they would do a quid pro quo, which could call for scrapping of all BS IV and pre-BS IV cars, through a legislation or judicial pronouncement, as that would "CLEAN" the environment according to them.

Last edited by anjan_c2007 : 19th June 2015 at 21:16.
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Old 20th June 2015, 10:26   #15
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Default Re: SIAM says BS-VI emission norms will compromise vehicle safety!

Anjanda I agree with you. If not BS-IV then at least BS-III! Also, I may add why are diesel specs for BS4 still lower than Euro-IV?
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