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Old 16th July 2015, 18:07   #31
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I don't know why people think that the dealer sold 'an old car as new'. The buyer may have thought it a good deal when he bought it.

Problem is the catastrophic engine failure & subsequent customer relationship management.
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Old 16th July 2015, 18:15   #32
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Default Re: BMW 640d: Severe Engine failure in only 4,000 kms! Engine swapped by dealer, new problems surfac

Here's my take on it (and I'm open to being corrected)

The customer purchased a car that was manufactured in 2011 by a dealer who perhaps doesn't understand what the term integrity means however BMW still has to have some sense of ownership and accountability because a BMW product was purchased from a dealer who BMW feels is competent to sell and service cars made by them.

Action should be taken by BMW against the dealer for not fitting the engine the way it would have been done at the factory. If they felt he wasn't qualified they shouldn't have given him the engine in the first place. BMW handed over the engine because (I think) they felt or were made to believe that it would be as good as a factory fit else I don't think they would have risked their reputation for 1 engine.

I also feel BMW needs to evaluate their "dealers" and lay down some sort of code of practice as well as some do's and don'ts.

As of now I don't feel the dealer has done anything illegal by selling an old car because that attachment clearly shows the year of manufacture as 2011 and he hasn't tampered with any data so I believe BMW are okay with dealers selling older cars but there has to be some sort of testing mandated by BMW for cars which have been left out in the yard for a particular amount of time before they are sold to customers. This "testing" or "fit to be handed over to a customer" certification should include not just the engine but also electricals, tyres etc
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Old 16th July 2015, 20:03   #33
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Default Re: BMW 640d: Severe Engine failure in only 4,000 kms! Engine swapped by dealer, new problems surfac

The 18 Lakh discount itself is a reason to believe that the owner knew that this was a 3 year old car; Otherwise who'd sell a brand new 6 series at such a discounted price. He should have asked for a bigger discount considering the price of the car, 3 years back was much lesser but no point in saying that now. Engine failure at 4000 kms was really unfortunate but then, BMW did their part by replacing the engine, returning the BSI cost and other freebies. What really went wrong was at the dealer's part when they fixed the new engine. They should have used well trained men for such complex jobs. What can be done at this point is, BMW can send some of their men from the factory to look into this car and fix it under goodwill.

Last edited by Anand123 : 16th July 2015 at 20:09.
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Old 16th July 2015, 20:30   #34
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Default Re: BMW 640d: Severe Engine failure in only 4,000 kms! Engine swapped by dealer, new problems surfac

Anand, from time to time, BMW has offered up to 10 lakhs off on a 530d. Nothing unusual about 18 lakhs off on a crore plus car. Recently, there were similar discounts on the 7-Series.
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Old 16th July 2015, 20:31   #35
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Default Re: BMW 640d: Severe Engine failure in only 4,000 kms! Engine swapped by dealer, new problems surfac

Owner obviously knew about the discount and the car being old and should have atleast seen the sales certificate if he was not told exactly how old. Least he would have known is that it is an old car. Dealer issue is not with respect to this. There are 2 year old maybachs which are sold, so its typical business between buyer and seller.

Dealer issue is if the car was invoiced on 2011, it should have have been sold on 76 ex-showroom price as in 2011. Didnt Ford sell Ecosport higher prices than when people booked. The same applies vice versa.

Engine seizing - Mechanical parts for fail (lube issue can be a dealer oversight. lets leave it at human error). BMW offering multiple sweeters to ease pain like wheels, free BSI is a good gesture. Any sane businessman will offer something similar rather than opting directly for a replacement.

Current issues - BMW should agree that they will provide a good similar loaner, test the car for a good two months with BMW factory technicians and offer a free base 1-series (ex-showroom free only). If the owner after two months is still not happy, BMW should provide for a new replacement in goodwill and bear the loss and cut the chase. Please note in case of a replacement, BMW easily stands to lose about 70 odd lakhs as the car would have depreciated by 50+% in 4 years from date of manufacture. Obviously like a any businessman, this will not be their first choice. So definitely they will try to try all alternatives before doing the ultimate. BMW should split the cost with the dealer in a agreed ratio and settle.

Last edited by dipen : 16th July 2015 at 20:33.
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Old 16th July 2015, 22:20   #36
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Default Re: BMW 640d: Severe Engine failure in only 4,000 kms! Engine swapped by dealer, new problems surfac

Quote:
I decoded the 640d's VIN online. Interestingly, though he bought the car in December 2014, its manufacturing date is November 2011 . Meaning, he's been sold a 3 year old car!! Note: The 640d is imported as a CBU. I wish more people would use the Team-BHP PDI checklis
Some facts -

BMW had lot of 2011 import 640D lying at Port / BMW India till around June 2013 when present MD of BMW took charge . He gave clearance to sell these cars at massive discounts , I was offered one of these at around 65 lac Ex Showroom + around 2,10 Lac for Soft Touch close & Head up Display . There were few other cars with more options . Most of Dealers here in North passed these rebates to customers as they were not keen to stock these due to age . Looks this Mumbai dealer stored this for future profit or there was something indeed wrong in car . But I seriously doubt that they have not told buyer about year of production and we should not go entirely by proforma or invoice on actual money paid

Now this reason of engine swap is beyond understanding but without knowing technical facts which again will be of not use to a normal owner with limited technical know how . To me it does look that owner has got upset with engine failure & is not satisfied with replacement job which cannot be of same standards as done in factory . Unfortunately there are very limited options in this case as BMW has already replaced complete engine and given some freebies - getting refund or new car looks impossible in any part of world not just in India . My Brothers 6 month old Toyota Highlander had a transmission failure in Canada and all Toyota's dealer did was that they replaced transmission with probably a refurbished one and it was never the same car - when we tried to check options - manufacturers liability was close to resale price in such cases at least in Canada.

I am not sure how BMW India can help this person - maybe he can sell this and buy something else at discounted prices

Quote:
I don't know why people think that the dealer sold 'an old car as new'. The buyer may have thought it a good deal when he bought it.

Problem is the catastrophic engine failure & subsequent customer relationship management.
+ 1 - agree completely

Last edited by Turbanator : 16th July 2015 at 22:28.
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Old 16th July 2015, 22:22   #37
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Default Re: BMW 640d: Severe Engine failure in only 4,000 kms! Engine swapped by dealer, new problems surfac

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anand123 View Post
Engine failure at 4000 kms was really unfortunate but then, BMW did their part by replacing the engine, returning the BSI cost and other freebies. What really went wrong was at the dealer's part when they fixed the new engine. They should have used well trained men for such complex jobs. What can be done at this point is, BMW can send some of their men from the factory to look into this car and fix it under goodwill.
While a manufacturer might replace the car but nowhere in the purchase terms & conditions it says that they MUST replace the car in case of specific failures.

Engine failure is worst for a car that's just run 4k kms but as Anand said, BMW did their job. If the dealer isn't able to install the engine or new problem related to 'engine installation only' arise that's when the dealer's fault really begins.

Again, nobody knows whether the customer knew about the car being 3 yr old or not so speculating around this less known fact is not right.

Not to mention (and I'm not aware of this), can a dealer really not sell an old car? I mean the sale documents clearly state the year of mfg so why the fuss?

I understand that the dealer has been in news mostly for wrong practices but lets not speculate around stuff that we have no information of.

What's really required is getting the engine installation right and then waiting to see what else crops up, which I'm most likely would.

Question to GTO if you don't mind sharing the details - Did the customer reach out to you or you found this information & shared it for awareness or other purpose?
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Old 17th July 2015, 12:31   #38
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Default Re: BMW 640d: Severe Engine failure in only 4,000 kms! Engine swapped by dealer, new problems surfac

I'm trying to understand this situation and have a few questions (inline):
Does BMW not care about it's brand and customers in India? Platino Classic has been embroiled in other shady BMW sales to customers and that still continues to go on. Shouldn't BMW first conduct an internal audit, look at Platino's accounts, cars sold, etc. to understand what really is going on and why so many lemons are coming out of Platino's stable only?
Can BMW not know at all of a dealer selling a four year old car to customer as new? Does it not know the service history of their own car? What was the car doing for four years in a showroom? Does this car not figure in BMW's internal systems? If it does, what does it show up as- old or new? Does BMW not have the ethics to label the car as 'Old" and thus run their quality checks (as they do for their used cars before selling) before making the sale? On what basis are they providing their extended warranty on a four year old vehicle? Most car manufacturer's extended warranties run out after the fourth year is complete!
Afaik, the replacement of the engine has to be approved by the car manufacturer basis troubleshooting and other quality parameter checks to ensure that it indeed needs a replacement. When Platino made a request for engine replacement, without prior customer approval, did no red flags go up in the BMW system?
On the customer part, my first red flag would be the number of kms run- four years and 4K run... that's a lemon right there, 18L discount be darned! Second, why would I go for an older 2011 model in 2015 when something better is already available for the same or maybe a little higher price? Because the moment I put this car up for resale or repurchase in about a year's time, technically the car will be a six year old car and not a year old car! What resale value can the customer expect in that situation? Or did the dealer promise something else too in terms of the resale/repurchase value?
I feel that there is more than what meets the eye here in this situation. And the onus is BMW India to investigate and get to the bottom of the matter and absolve it's reputation of such disasters.
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Old 17th July 2015, 13:21   #39
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Default Re: BMW 640d: Severe Engine failure in only 4,000 kms! Engine swapped by dealer, new problems surfac

My appeal to the owner, as a BMW loving Keralite, Platino classic needs to burn to the ground, they have cheated enough and more customers blatantly and really don't care about the sheer mental agony and financial loss they cause to a person who invest's a huge amount of money in the BMW brand. They are absolute dirt and scum in the face of an internationally loved car brand.

Quite simply, BMW's are cars people dream to own, pictures of which people set as desktop and mobile wallpapers and it is these cars, criminals like platino classic make these cars give an insane level of hardship, agony and despair, both financially and mentally to people who finally spend a huge amount of their hard earned money to own it.

I ask you man, for the sake of all future and existing BMW owners, to do something creative that can bring international attention to this issue :

Take a small plot of land for rent in the middle of Kochi city and rent a crane and hang the car from this crane in the middle of the city for an indefinite amount of time, with a big billboard saying "platino classic - the cheaters", till they literally beg you to take it down.

Or beat up the car with hammers in the middle of the city with enough youngsters around to share the video and make it viral,

Create a facebook page inviting people to attend a car burning / destruction event at a particular time and date, offer free meals and drinks, and burn the car up at a secluded spot in the presence of as many people as possible and ask each and every one of them to share the video via whatsapp. Add a few huge firecrackers in the car for added effect.

You might ask, what's the point of all this, doesn't this look a bit silly? No, this activity brings national and international attention to this issue of the platino classic cheating cases, digital media, newspapers and television channels will have an absolute field day, aggressive questions will arise to the owners of the showroom from BMW directly, a drop will be noticed in India regarding purchase intent for the brand, and also a drop in brand favorability and trustworthiness will arise, these are stuff the company has spent billions of dollars over the past several decades to build and maintain. To protect these aspects, brands worldwide go to really extraordinary lengths.

There are hundreds of examples of people doing stuff like this to even more expensive cars worldwide, each one of them have had their video go viral internationally. Check the following video out.

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Old 17th July 2015, 13:46   #40
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Default Re: BMW 640d: Severe Engine failure in only 4,000 kms! Engine swapped by dealer, new problems surfac

Some are blaming the dealer while others the car owner. But biggest culprit is BMW. So what if it is a 3 year old car? Not starting up after 3 years (since it was sitting pretty in one spot) is understandable. But running fine initially and dieing just after 4,000 KMs is not understandable. How can a brand new (albeit 3-year old) car die just like that after 4,000 Kms. AS for the dealer, I don't think he cheated the car buyer. The sales certificate shows age at 2011. There is no way a man who pays top rupees for such a car would fail to read year of manufacture which is shown so clearly. The buyer bought knowing well the age but he gambled on "excellence" of German engineering. BTW, most non-auto enthusiast people are unaware of unreliability of German cars. It is only enthusiasts like TeamBhpians who know what is what.
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Old 17th July 2015, 13:52   #41
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Default Re: BMW 640d: Severe Engine failure in only 4,000 kms! Engine swapped by dealer, new problems surfac

Quote:
Originally Posted by pgsagar View Post
AS for the dealer, I don't think he cheated the car buyer. The sales certificate shows age at 2011..
But IMO, the owner might have seen this after he paid and got the car registered.

Like us enthusiasts, he might not have tallied the VIN or even asked for it.
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Old 17th July 2015, 17:31   #42
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Default Re: BMW 640d: Severe Engine failure in only 4,000 kms! Engine swapped by dealer, new problems surfac

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Originally Posted by pgsagar View Post
Some are blaming the dealer while others the car owner. But biggest culprit is BMW. So what if it is a 3 year old car? Not starting up after 3 years (since it was sitting pretty in one spot) is understandable. But running fine initially and dieing just after 4,000 KMs is not understandable. How can a brand new (albeit 3-year old) car die just like that after 4,000 Kms.
I'd say that it may have been scavenged for replacement parts during its 3 yr stay in the stockyard and/or may have been subject to joyrides as GTO mentioned. Opposed to the common myth, BMW are not all that reliable although any car from their stable wouldn't die simply because it wasn't used for a prolonged period as long as it wasn't tinkered with.

Owing to his shady background, I opine that its the dealer who seems to have conned the customer even if the latter was fully aware of the date of manufacture.
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Old 17th July 2015, 17:39   #43
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Default Re: BMW 640d: Severe Engine failure in only 4,000 kms! Engine swapped by dealer, new problems surfac

While it is easy to sympathise with the on owner, as we can all relate to him, we must look at this issue with a calm head. Let's list down the facts first.

The car was made in 2011

The owner was offered a 18 lac discount

The registration certificate mentioned 2011, so no direct fraud by the dealer

We don't know if the owner knew and willingly took a 2011 car at 2015 prices minus the discount. I wouldnt have.

We are not sure if all the rubber parts, the oils and other liquids were changed or flushed before delivery. No data on that.

We don't know if th owner made some performance mods on the car

Unless we get all the relevant data from the owner, our comments at best are speculation and judgemental.
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Old 17th July 2015, 20:03   #44
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Default Re: BMW 640d: Severe Engine failure in only 4,000 kms! Engine swapped by dealer, new problems surfac

Could it be that the oil sat in the engine for 3+ years, deteriorated and probably broke down partially into sludge, and that sludge circulated all through the engine, blocking minute holes and gumming up the fine tolerances within the engine?

Wouldn't that cause engine failure of the type experienced by this gentleman?

If this is so, isn't the dealer entirely liable, instead of the so-called 'goodwill warranty'?
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Old 17th July 2015, 21:28   #45
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Default Re: BMW 640d: Severe Engine failure in only 4,000 kms! Engine swapped by dealer, new problems surfac

Well if the owner was offered a 3 year old car and the owner knew about it then its alright but regardless of how old the car is, if the car was unused for 3 years then thorough check should have been done before handing the car over!
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