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Old 22nd September 2015, 15:01   #16
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Default Re: Help - Cannot slot into 1st gear unless car comes to a stop

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Originally Posted by VeyronSuperSprt View Post
Difficulty in engaging first gear is a fairly common problem with Maruti's that have done around 1 lakh kms. Although technically it should point to faulty synchroniser rings, the problem is due to the OE gear oil used by Maruti.

Replacing the gear oil with Shell or other equivalent good gear oil makes the problem disappear completely. The most obvious reason for this is the better lubrication to the gears in comparison to OE spec gear oil. Some A.S.S use Shell gear oil. Maruti hasn't done anything about it either because this issue happens only around 1 lakh km, if at all.
Well yes, Some MASS do use 80W-90 Gearbox oil which is a little thicker than the 75W-90 recommended by Maruti which is why during morning cold starts, the first gear is hard to engage, but in his case, if it is happening only during the cold, then yes there is a point to ponder, but if its happening all the time, evening after driving around for some kilometers, then it can't be the gearbox oil.

Navneet here Thane (Mumbai) fills only 75-90, where as smaller Maruti Service stations fill in 80W-90 and are obvious to the idea of it making a major difference during cold mornings.

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Originally Posted by dhanushs View Post
Why the flywheel? If the clutch is not used till the end, to an extend, that it scores the flywheel, I don't think 1lack kms is a time where you change the flywheel. When OP is complaining about a high quote, why incur unnecessary expense?
Firstly, Flywheel because the older flywheel has scored itself to the constant rubbing by the old clutch plate. A newer clutch installed on an old flywheel has a chance of judder.

Secondly, overtime flywheels unbalance themselves just like how tyres/alloy combination needs balancing over time. In Case of fly wheels they can't be balanced at such high kilometers it best left changed as at a later point, the chances of vibrations creeping in because of an unbalanced flywheel are present too.

The unnecessary expense would be to down the gearbox again for this and let me be honest, most of the MASS people don't know jack about how to align the gear linkages back to the gearbox leading to rough shifts until you find someone who will adjust them back into place. I would stay away as much as possible from the removal and fixing back of the gearbox in this car as well in a Swift Diesel/Dzire Diesel.

Last edited by humyum : 22nd September 2015 at 15:10.
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Old 22nd September 2015, 15:46   #17
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Default Re: Help - Cannot slot into 1st gear unless car comes to a stop

Quote:
Originally Posted by VeyronSuperSprt View Post
Difficulty in engaging first gear is a fairly common problem with Maruti's that have done around 1 lakh kms. Although technically it should point to faulty synchroniser rings, the problem is due to the OE gear oil used by Maruti.

Replacing the gear oil with Shell or other equivalent good gear oil makes the problem disappear completely. The most obvious reason for this is the better lubrication to the gears in comparison to OE spec gear oil. Some A.S.S use Shell gear oil. Maruti hasn't done anything about it either because this issue happens only around 1 lakh km, if at all.

As indicated, one way to reduce the problem is to double declutch.
Hi VeyronSuperSprt, Actually there is no problem in moving to the 1st gear from neutral. The only problem is downshifting from a higher gear. For example, If I am driving in 5th, and suddenly come to a speedbreaker, where I brake and slow down, now I press the clutch and try to downshift to 1st gear, but it resists. I have to release the clutch and then press the clutch once more and then only can I slot to the 1st gear.

Absolutely no problem if I downshift to 2nd instead of 1st.

So, how can this be related to gear oil?

Awaiting your reply urgently, since I am still facing the same issue in my Swift vdi. Car has done approx 81k kms and is running perfectly fine otherwise.
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Old 22nd September 2015, 19:44   #18
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Default Re: Help - Cannot slot into 1st gear unless car comes to a stop

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Originally Posted by humyum View Post
Navneet here Thane (Mumbai) fills only 75-90, where as smaller Maruti Service stations fill in 80W-90 and are obvious to the idea of it making a major difference during cold mornings.
Here the oil used is Shell 75W90 on majority.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lalvaz View Post
For example, If I am driving in 5th, and suddenly come to a speedbreaker, where I brake and slow down, now I press the clutch and try to downshift to 1st gear, but it resists. I have to release the clutch and then press the clutch once more and then only can I slot to the 1st gear.
I guess this is related to the speed at which you are trying to downshift from a higher gear to 1st.

Initially when I was new to the DDiS engine and not used to diesel cars, when I down-shifted from 3rd to 1st under hard braking, the gear shift was hard and it never slotted into first. After a while I understood that to get into 1st from a higher gear the speed must be below 10 kmph. Below this speed things are better and it slots as required.

Try shifting after dropping the speed below 10 kmph and see if the issue persists.
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Old 22nd September 2015, 21:06   #19
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Default Re: Help - Cannot slot into 1st gear unless car comes to a stop

Quote:
Originally Posted by humyum View Post
Well yes, Some MASS do use 80W-90 Gearbox oil which is a little thicker than the 75W-90 recommended by Maruti which is why during morning cold starts, the first gear is hard to engage, but in his case, if it is happening only during the cold, then yes there is a point to ponder, but if its happening all the time, evening after driving around for some kilometers, then it can't be the gearbox oil.

Navneet here Thane (Mumbai) fills only 75-90, where as smaller Maruti Service stations fill in 80W-90 and are obvious to the idea of it making a major difference during cold mornings.



Firstly, Flywheel because the older flywheel has scored itself to the constant rubbing by the old clutch plate. A newer clutch installed on an old flywheel has a chance of judder.

Secondly, overtime flywheels unbalance themselves just like how tyres/alloy combination needs balancing over time. In Case of fly wheels they can't be balanced at such high kilometers it best left changed as at a later point, the chances of vibrations creeping in because of an unbalanced flywheel are present too.

The unnecessary expense would be to down the gearbox again for this and let me be honest, most of the MASS people don't know jack about how to align the gear linkages back to the gearbox leading to rough shifts until you find someone who will adjust them back into place. I would stay away as much as possible from the removal and fixing back of the gearbox in this car as well in a Swift Diesel/Dzire Diesel.
1. The remedy suggested is for the problem as reported in the OP.

2. Difficulty in engaging gear only while cold will not be solved by changing the gear oil.

3. There is absolutely no need to replace the flywheel in a 1 lakh run Maruti if the clutch is being replaced at that time unless there is a problem with the flywheel. The problems that you have quoted are old wives tales told by mechanics to get people to change the flywheel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lalvaz View Post
Hi VeyronSuperSprt, Actually there is no problem in moving to the 1st gear from neutral. The only problem is downshifting from a higher gear. For example, If I am driving in 5th, and suddenly come to a speedbreaker, where I brake and slow down, now I press the clutch and try to downshift to 1st gear, but it resists. I have to release the clutch and then press the clutch once more and then only can I slot to the 1st gear.

Absolutely no problem if I downshift to 2nd instead of 1st.

So, how can this be related to gear oil?

Awaiting your reply urgently, since I am still facing the same issue in my Swift vdi. Car has done approx 81k kms and is running perfectly fine otherwise.
1. When you slow down, adopt the double declutch, this will reduce the problem.There is no need to change the gear oil immediately.

2. The better quality gear oil reduces the friction within the gears substantially and accordingly the resistance within the gear.

3. Usually you can manage to pull away in second from low speeds unless you have a full load in the car. Use first only when you are at a stop or at a very slow speed at which time you can slot it into first normally or through double declutch easily.

Last edited by VeyronSuperSprt : 22nd September 2015 at 21:20.
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Old 22nd September 2015, 21:33   #20
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Default Re: Help - Cannot slot into 1st gear unless car comes to a stop

Quote:
Originally Posted by VeyronSuperSprt View Post
1. The remedy suggested is for the problem as reported in the OP.
Sorry to say, the remedy to not being able to engage 1st gear all the time does not get sorted by Shell gearbox oil or any for that matterEVER. Wrong gearbox oil grades(not by too much margin, can't put 140W and expect anything to change) can make the shifts notchy even after they have heated up a bit, but 75W90 or 80W90 will allow you to change to 1st in a moving car after heating up no matter what.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VeyronSuperSprt View Post
2. Difficulty in engaging gear only while cold will not be solved by changing the gear oil.
Right gearbox oil will change that, documented by a lot of users here. Personally experienced by F1fan and me too. 75-90 makes morning shifts much easier than 80W-90, 1st gear is the hardest to engage with wrong gearbox oil as it has a double synchronizer ring and needs proper lubrication from the right grade. Of course if the syncroniser has failed in the first place nothing will change the shifting but if everything mechanically is fine, the right gearbox oil grade will change a lot of things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VeyronSuperSprt View Post
3. There is absolutely no need to replace the flywheel in a 1 lakh run Maruti if the clutch is being replaced at that time unless there is a problem with the flywheel. The problems that you have quoted are old wives tales told by mechanics to get people to change the flywheel.
Wrong, lots of people here have vibrations between 1800 to 2000 rpm problems including me because of Flywheel inbalance over time causing a deadly vibration at certain rpm which has been solved by its replacement.
There is also a clutch judder problem when flywheel has not been replaced along with the clutch. These old wive tales are proving to be true to many of us. Hence its better to change it when things are being opened.

Last edited by humyum : 22nd September 2015 at 22:02.
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Old 22nd September 2015, 22:40   #21
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Default Re: Help - Cannot slot into 1st gear unless car comes to a stop

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Originally Posted by a4anurag View Post
Here the oil used is Shell 75W90 on majority.



I guess this is related to the speed at which you are trying to downshift from a higher gear to 1st.

Initially when I was new to the DDiS engine and not used to diesel cars, when I down-shifted from 3rd to 1st under hard braking, the gear shift was hard and it never slotted into first. After a while I understood that to get into 1st from a higher gear the speed must be below 10 kmph. Below this speed things are better and it slots as required.

Try shifting after dropping the speed below 10 kmph and see if the issue persists.
My friend, I'm not new to Ddis, I've been driving one for over 80k kms over 5 years, and I know that my car is having an issue downshifting into 1st gear just like the thread opener. I've shown it to the MASS folks and they acknowledge the issue as well.

As per my understanding it's a failure of the synchronising rings which is why there is no problem slotting in 1st after double clutching. I don't understand what gear oil has to do with my problem, hence my query.
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Old 23rd September 2015, 16:42   #22
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Default Re: Help - Cannot slot into 1st gear unless car comes to a stop

I had the exact problem with my Palio. It would sometimes get stuck in gears and would be impossible to shift to any other gear.

When the car is stationary or the engine off, she would slot smoothly.

Even I thought it was a synchroniser issue as I would sometimes hear a grating sound when slotting into reverse.

Ultimately, the issue was traced to the Clutch Master Cylinder which had given up. Once that was changed, the problem has gone away and she slots perfectly.

Before you go ahead with expensive gearbox repairs, do get the clutch MC and SC checked. Its better to rule these out first.
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Old 23rd September 2015, 16:59   #23
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Default Re: Help - Cannot slot into 1st gear unless car comes to a stop

Sounds very much like your Ritz's syncro rings are worn/damaged.
I had the same problem with my Swift diesel, about a year back. It was becoming impossible to shift down to first while in motion. Got around the problem with double clutching and rev matching. Kept postponing it, for a couple of months, until down-shifting to second gear also started becoming slightly problematic. I was apprehensive (read terrified) about getting the gearbox opened at the service station, for I was of the opinion that once a gearbox or an engine is opened for service, it is never going to feel the same again. But, after being assured by my trustworthy SA, who has been servicing my cars, for the last 10 years or so, I reluctantly gave it for a change of syncro rings. Since, the gearbox was going to be opened and put back together, I asked them to change the gearbox oil as well.
Total cost was Rs.20,000/- approximately, which was covered under warranty.

Since, the change of syncro rings, the gearbox is back to its usual smooth short shifting self. Excellent workmanship by the mechanics.

Now, having had faced very similar issues as yours, I am inclined to believe that your SA is not bluffing, by asking you to change the offending syncro ring.
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Old 23rd September 2015, 22:47   #24
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Default Re: Help - Cannot slot into 1st gear unless car comes to a stop

Since the issue has been diagnosed well, I would only talk about my experience. This is a common problem with Maruti DDIS engine that are majorly driven in city start stop traffic.

In the last 1.05 L km on my SX4 DDIS i have changed the syncro rings twice. The first time in warranty and paying for the clutch plate as extra simply because it was cheap at 1.8k.
This time as many others here have pointed out got the flywheel, bearing and plate changed too as well. The cost was about 1.6k per set for syncro, 3k for the pressure plate and clutch plate and about 3.5 k for the bearing. the mild judder earlier present at about 2000 rpm is totally gone.
The key thing to mention here is that the labour costed a whooping 4.5k so dont shy away from the other components suggested like pressure plate and bearing as getting it done again will be quite expensive because of the labour.
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Old 24th September 2015, 05:09   #25
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Default Re: Help - Cannot slot into 1st gear unless car comes to a stop

Hi fellow team bhpians. Greeting to all !! I would like to add my 2 cents on this topic. My Swift vdi abs (2010) has done 1L km and completed her 5th birthday this month . I started getting this exact same issue at around 89k km - not being able to slot in to 1st geat at speeds higher than 10kmph. During the 90k km service, I was advised by the MASS (Vishnu Cars - Mylapore, Chennai) that it is the synchronizer that needs to be replaced. They said that it is not required to be changed at this time and can be pushed till I get to a state where I cannot slot in to 1st gear at all. Last week I did my 1L km service which was almost a year after the previous 90k km service (Usually I do the 10k km interval service every 4 - 6 months as I cover it so quickly - LIVE to DRIVE but this gap was the longest in my swift's history. FYI she runs on synthetic engine oil).

On the last service (1L km service which was done at my favorite MASS - Vishnu Cars - Pallavaram, Chennai where I had been doing all my 10k interval services except the last one which was in Mylapore brach), the MASS folks said the same. They asked to keep moving until I end up not being able to slot in to the 1st gear.

I am still able to slot in to 1st gear but on only rule that I need to slow down to 10kmph or lower speeds. I found one more interesting thing on my own - inspired by the old rough engine bus drivers. I am not sure if that is good or bad but worked out well when I tested; though I don't do it until I really need such a down shift. It is the same technique as the old bus drivers do where there take the RPM a little higher with clutch depressed and then down shift the gear. Like while on 2nd great, in a situation when we need to down shift, depress the clutch and increase the throtle a bit (vroooom) and shift down quickly when the RPM comes down from the raise. This is the workaround I do on a really needed situation.

Since I got that judder issue - where, on 5th gear, when turbo kicks in and when we cross around 75 - 80 kmph, there will be an addition noise as if there is a leak in the turbo hose. This was diagnosed by the MASS on 90k km service to be a - starting to worn out clutch housing which was advised as not an issue till now and till my next 1.1L km service. (Solution for that was advised as clutch replacement but since it was only the clutch housing which started to worn out and that cannot be replaced separately, this is kept for a check on 1.1L km service).

For clutch replacement, I was quoted 11k by MASS - Vishnu cars - Pallavaram, Chennai). Since there is no difference in the FE and gear slotting is smooth as usual, I convinced my self to go for the clutch replacement later as also suggested by the MASS.
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Old 1st October 2015, 10:07   #26
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Default Re: Help - Cannot slot into 1st gear unless car comes to a stop

All,

Thank you for your very valuable feedback. Here are somethings to get closure to this thread and to help future members with similar problems.

I received the car 4 days back from the service center and had since then clocked about 700kms. The gear shift are back to normal and shifting into first gear is no longer an issue. The gear shifts are not like when the car was brand new but very near it. The clutch has become immensely lighter after the clutch change.

Below is the parts bill and the labor bill so that you can see the costs and the part numbers.

parts:
Help - Cannot slot into 1st gear unless car comes to a stop-team1.png

labor:
Help - Cannot slot into 1st gear unless car comes to a stop-team2.png

I had the water pump changed and some other consumables as well. The flywheel was not changed as the SA said that there are no issues with it.

The timing belt chain was requested to be replaced, but SA said that it will at least last for another 15k KMS. This is scheduled for the next visit.

The car now has about 113K kms on the odo.

Once again, thank you all.
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Old 1st October 2015, 10:24   #27
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Default Re: Help - Cannot slot into 1st gear unless car comes to a stop

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Originally Posted by govigov View Post

I received the car 4 days back from the service center and had since then clocked about 700kms. The gear shift are back to normal and shifting into first gear is no longer an issue. The gear shifts are not like when the car was brand new but very near it. The clutch has become immensely lighter after the clutch change.

Below is the parts bill and the labor bill so that you can see the costs and the part numbers.

parts:
Attachment 1421517

labor:
Attachment 1421518

I had the water pump changed and some other consumables as well. The flywheel was not changed as the SA said that there are no issues with it.

The timing belt chain was requested to be replaced, but SA said that it will at least last for another 15k KMS. This is scheduled for the next visit.

The car now has about 113K kms on the odo.

Once again, thank you all.
Glad to know that your car is working fine now. Can you let me know what was the total cost?
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Old 1st October 2015, 10:47   #28
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Default Re: Help - Cannot slot into 1st gear unless car comes to a stop

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Originally Posted by Lalvaz View Post
Glad to know that your car is working fine now. Can you let me know what was the total cost?
Hello Lalvaz, I have the price list up. But the total for me was 33K including changes to the water pump and its associated labor which will not reflect in a regular syncro change. This also includes the regular service and change of all fluids.

For syncro changes alone, each syncro ring is 1450 (x2) = 2900
labor - 1750
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