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Old 21st September 2015, 16:58   #1
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Default Help - Cannot slot into 1st gear unless car comes to a stop

Help!!

I have a peculiar issue with my car. The car is a 2010 Ritz Vdi.

The issue: I can *ONLY* engage first when i am in a complete stop. I cannot engage first even if I am slightly rolling. When I am at an incline and what to downshift to 1st, I cannot do so, until I brake the car and come to a complete stop, then and only then can the car be slotted into first.

When I am trying to slot into first, this is the felling that I am getting:

I can feel the gate and the slot, however, I feel that there is something blocking the slot. It does not go far enough into the slot, like it is halfway in, the gear does not bite at this point, i.e if I release the clutch it will be neutral.

This issue is only with the first gear and rest of the gears behave normally.

I rode like this for some time and have now given the car for service thinking it is some simple gear linkage issue. However they are saying that the syncro rings are gone and that they need to dismantle the gear box to change the rings.

I have given a go ahead for this and have also asked them to change the clutch while at it since they say that they have to open the gear box anyways to change the clutch. I don't think there is an issue with the clutch, but wanted to do preventive maintenance on this part.

The question:

The syncro rings alone are worth about 10k according to him and the clutch and the springs another 6-7k making just this whole process cost approx 18K in addition to the regular service. I want to make sure that this guy is not fooling me and this is infact the issue. Is the service adviser correct?

For what it is worth; the car is approximately run 1.1L KMs without a clutch change. So, that is anyways due for a change.

What do you guys think?

Last edited by govigov : 21st September 2015 at 16:59.
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Old 21st September 2015, 17:09   #2
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If you revved the engine and maintain steady pressure on the gear lever would it engage in first? Usually even with the synchro gone bad you should still be able to force it into gear. Might cause a bit of teeth grinding, but still.


I would have thought initially a simple linkage problem, but its difficult to imagine how such aproblem would manifest itself differently from when your are driving to stopped. So they might be correct.

You do need to open up the gearbox to change the synchro. You do not need to open the gearbox to change the clutch, but typically you do need to remove the gearbox, so yes I would say, with your mileage, it does make sense to replace the clutch as they would take the gearbox off. I would also replace the throw bearing, pressure plate and any other parts that might be susceptible to wear on the clutch.

Good luck
Jeroen
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Old 21st September 2015, 17:43   #3
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Default re: Help - Cannot slot into 1st gear unless car comes to a stop

I'm not aware about the mechanics involved in the Ritz or any other Maruti car. However I had faced this problem in my Indigo while on a long highway trip, in as much as gear numbers 1, 3 and 5 could not be slotted at all.
The problem turned out to be the clutch cable had come loose and was interfering in the movements of the gear shift stick. I took the car to my brother's friendly garage in Aurangabad. They put it up on a ramp and showed me what exactly had happened. It took 5 minutes to put it back in its place and was tied by two plastic ties, which costed me Rs 40/-. Only penalty was I had to drive 100 kilometers of highway only on 2nd and 4th gear.
However, since you're opening the entire gear box, I'd suggest that you get the work done before your eyes, and trying buying required spares on your own. There is another thread about synchronizer ring replacement in an Ertiga. The costs mentioned are not this high.

Last edited by Swapnil4585 : 21st September 2015 at 17:46. Reason: spelling check
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Old 21st September 2015, 17:55   #4
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Default re: Help - Cannot slot into 1st gear unless car comes to a stop

Yes, it is the problem with synchronizing and faulty component need to be changed. By the way, what is the present odometer reading.

Last edited by GTO : 22nd September 2015 at 14:14. Reason: Typo
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Old 21st September 2015, 18:01   #5
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Default re: Help - Cannot slot into 1st gear unless car comes to a stop

Yes Govigov, this is a known issue of the synchronising rings failing in the Maruti cars using the 1.3 litre multi jet engine. Given the huge number of such incidents reported in the swift, ritz etc, Maruti should ideally do a recall and free replacement.

I have the exact same issue in my swift vdi, but get around by pressing the clutch twice. That resolves the issue allowing me to slot to first. Somehow not comfortable in letting them open my gearbox.

Please let us know the feedback once your car is back.

All the best.

Last edited by GTO : 22nd September 2015 at 14:14. Reason: Typo
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Old 21st September 2015, 18:28   #6
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Default re: Help - Cannot slot into 1st gear unless car comes to a stop

Quote:
Originally Posted by govigov View Post
The question:

The syncro rings alone are worth about 10k according to him and the clutch and the springs another 6-7k making just this whole process cost approx 18K in addition to the regular service. I want to make sure that this guy is not fooling me and this is infact the issue. Is the service adviser correct?

For what it is worth; the car is approximately run 1.1L KMs without a clutch change. So, that is anyways due for a change.

What do you guys think?
Syncros are not 10k, unless you are changing all of them. They are more like 2.5 k per gear plus gearbox overhaul cost which is a one time cost of 2 to 2.5 thousand.

Secondly with 1.1 lakh kilometers, I would change the Clutch, Pressure Plate, Flywheel, Release bearing, clutch pedal cylinder and slave cylinder. Flywheel because its already run 1.1 lakh kilometers and clutch pedal cylinder and slave cylinder because you have done a lot many kilometers and the bushing in these might be at the end of their life. Once and for all finish everything on the clutch side and get 1 lakh kilometers + of peace of mind.

I am talking about this from personal experience, changed the slave at 76 thousand, clutch cylinder at 1 lakh 10 thousand and what a head ache it was to diagnose this first by bleeding it every some thousand kilometers before pin pointing to the clutch cylinder. Don't worry, all these are not really expensive. The release bearing is the costliest at 3.5 thousand rupees.
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Old 21st September 2015, 19:22   #7
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Default re: Help - Cannot slot into 1st gear unless car comes to a stop

Quote:
Originally Posted by govigov View Post
The syncro rings alone are worth about 10k according to him and the clutch and the springs another 6-7k making just this whole process cost approx 18K in addition to the regular service. I want to make sure that this guy is not fooling me and this is infact the issue. Is the service adviser correct?

For what it is worth; the car is approximately run 1.1L KMs without a clutch change. So, that is anyways due for a change.

What do you guys think?
Go ahead with it. You aren't being fooled.

Parts you need to change:
  1. Clutch plate
  2. Pressure plate
  3. Clutch release bearing
  4. Flywheel
  5. 1st Gear synchro ring.

Check the gear shifter linkage too.

Here are the part numbers and costs that I had incurred during the clutch plate.

Part number (For reference):
  • Disc Comp, Clutch (a.k.a Clutch plate): 22400M86J41 (Make: Valeo)
  • Cover Clutch, (a.k.a Pressure Plate): 22100M86J40
  • Clutch release bearing: 23820M79J00

Costs incurred:
  • Clutch plate: ₹1600
  • Pressure Plate:1097
  • Clutch release bearing: ₹3100
  • Labour: ₹1200

Do update the thread when the job is done.
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Old 21st September 2015, 21:42   #8
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Default re: Help - Cannot slot into 1st gear unless car comes to a stop

The diagnosis is perfect! Its the synchronizer rings which are making your shifts hard. I have the same problem in my car but managing as the car has been driven only for 25k Kms.

Also inspect other synchronizer rings to ensure you need not open the gearbox again.


Do replace the Clutch parts as already mentioned. Make sure you have a proper free play in the clutch pedal travel to ensure proper gearshifts and less clutch and synchronizer wear.

The cost of the synchronizer rings cannot be so high. 5 years back the complete synchronizer for Tata Cars was costing Rs 2000. Tata costs are less because they manufacture their own synchronizers. Still the cost of syncrhonizer ring should not be more than 2-2.5k max.
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Old 21st September 2015, 23:23   #9
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Default re: Help - Cannot slot into 1st gear unless car comes to a stop

Had the synchronizer rings been the lone culprit, the gear would have slipped too. Try to hold the lever in 1st by using force and drive at high revs. If it slips, then the ring is to be blamed. If not, it is linkage problem.
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Old 22nd September 2015, 00:50   #10
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Default re: Help - Cannot slot into 1st gear unless car comes to a stop

hey govigov,
It seems to me that the repairs recommended by the service center are all justified. Be sure to check other synchros and and bearings inside the gearbox once opened. The gear oil should also be changed and it is definitely recommended that the clutch plate, pressure plate, release bearing and flywheel be changed. Very few people can make a clutch last 100k kms
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Old 22nd September 2015, 07:03   #11
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Default re: Help - Cannot slot into 1st gear unless car comes to a stop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swapnil4585 View Post
Had the synchronizer rings been the lone culprit, the gear would have slipped too. Try to hold the lever in 1st by using force and drive at high revs. If it slips, then the ring is to be blamed. If not, it is linkage problem.
Not sure what you mean, maybe I misununderstand but slippage can't happen in the gear box. If you have slippage its always the clutch. What can happen is popping out of gear, so you need to hold the gear lever from the gear popping out into neutral.

that is likely to be linkage, not so much as synchro. Once slotted into a gear the synchro has no role/function.

Jeroen
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Old 22nd September 2015, 08:33   #12
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Default re: Help - Cannot slot into 1st gear unless car comes to a stop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
If you revved the engine and maintain steady pressure on the gear lever would it engage in first? Usually even with the synchro gone bad you should still be able to force it into gear. Might cause a bit of teeth grinding, but still.


You do need to open up the gearbox to change the synchro. You do not need to open the gearbox to change the clutch, but typically you do need to remove the gearbox
Thank you, Jeroen. Yes. Initially while this problem manifested, I had manged to hold up traffic and in a hurry was able to force it into first. Since, then I did not try to mash the gears due to grinding because of fear that more things may go wrong inside the gear box. I just had changed my style of driving to account to the fact that I may need to stop just for an instant to pop the car into first.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rajeev k View Post
Yes, it is the problem with synchronizing and faulty component need to be changed. By the by, what is the present odometer reading.
The odo when the car was given to service was 1,13,xxx kms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lalvaz View Post
Yes Govigov, this is a known issue of the synchronising rings failing in the Maruti cars using the 1.3 litre multi jet engine. Given the huge number of such incidents reported in the swift, retina, ritz etc, Maruti should ideally do a recall and free replacement.

I have the exact same issue in my swift vdi, but get around by pressing the clutch twice. That resolves the issue allowing me to slot to first. Somehow not comfortable in letting them open my gearbox.

Please let us know the feedback once your car is back.

All the best.
Thank you, Lavlaz, this is the first time I am hearing about this issue, I might have missed a thread on it or something. A search in our forum did not turn anything fruitful. For some reason, I did not try double clutch, I should have tried that. I will definitely let you know once the car is back from service.

Quote:
Originally Posted by humyum View Post
Syncros are not 10k, unless you are changing all of them. They are more like 2.5 k per gear plus gearbox overhaul cost which is a one time cost of 2 to 2.5 thousand.

Secondly with 1.1 lakh kilometers, I would change the Clutch, Pressure Plate, Flywheel, Release bearing, clutch pedal cylinder and slave cylinder. Flywheel because its already run 1.1 lakh kilometers and clutch pedal cylinder and slave cylinder because you have done a lot many kilometers and the bushing in these might be at the end of their life. Once and for all finish everything on the clutch side and get 1 lakh kilometers + of peace of mind.
Thank you, humym. Yes, I have already asked him to change the release bearing and the pressure plates. I will also inform them to change the flywheel, the slave cylinder and the pedal cylinder. Thank you for mentioning the costs associated

Quote:
Originally Posted by a4anurag View Post
Go ahead with it. You aren't being fooled.
Thank you, anurag for the break up and the part numbers. I will definitely check with him on why the quote was high. They generally have a habit of quoting high and then providing a lower bill. Let me check with the SA in any case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amit_purohit20 View Post
The diagnosis is perfect! Its the synchronizer rings which are making your shifts hard.
Thank you, amit. It is definitely a relief to know that the diagnosis is correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swapnil4585 View Post
Had the synchronizer rings been the lone culprit, the gear would have slipped too. Try to hold the lever in 1st by using force and drive at high revs. If it slips, then the ring is to be blamed. If not, it is linkage problem.
Hello swapnil, The gears do not slip once engaged and behaves perfectly normal. The issue is only in slotting into this gear. Also, if only the gears on the top (1 , 3 and 5) or the ones on the bottom (2, 4 and R) had manifested the problem, then it would have been an easy thing to diagnose and fix.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bullrun87 View Post
hey govigov,
It seems to me that the repairs recommended by the service center are all justified. Be sure to check other synchros and and bearings inside the gearbox once opened. The gear oil should also be changed and it is definitely recommended that the clutch plate, pressure plate, release bearing and flywheel be changed. Very few people can make a clutch last 100k kms
Sure, bullrun87, I will also change the other parts mentioned by our very knowledgeable BHPians as a part of preventive maintenance.


Thank you, All. I will update this thread once the work is over with the detailed bill. I think I will also have to factor in the change of gear box oil. Does the gear box have a casket of some kind that also needs to be changed? (Like the head gasket) Or would they use the red glue type thing? (I do not know what it is called). Are there any checks to be done to make sure that the gear box is sealed and not leaking?

Last edited by govigov : 22nd September 2015 at 08:35.
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Old 22nd September 2015, 08:55   #13
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Default re: Help - Cannot slot into 1st gear unless car comes to a stop

Difficulty in engaging first gear is a fairly common problem with Maruti's that have done around 1 lakh kms. Although technically it should point to faulty synchroniser rings, the problem is due to the OE gear oil used by Maruti.

Replacing the gear oil with Shell or other equivalent good gear oil makes the problem disappear completely. The most obvious reason for this is the better lubrication to the gears in comparison to OE spec gear oil. Some A.S.S use Shell gear oil. Maruti hasn't done anything about it either because this issue happens only around 1 lakh km, if at all.

As indicated, one way to reduce the problem is to double declutch.

It would have been advisable for you to post your query before you sent in the car for repairs as you could have saved a lot of money. Most SA's in any A.S.S are clueless, let alone Maruti.

Edit: Just saw your query: Maruti gearboxes do not use gaskets. They use SuzukiBond, an OE glue.

Last edited by VeyronSuperSprt : 22nd September 2015 at 09:13.
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Old 22nd September 2015, 11:06   #14
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Default re: Help - Cannot slot into 1st gear unless car comes to a stop

@OP, Its a syncro issue & I have a feeling Maruti will only provide Syncro Rings as a set. Hence the cost. Well, if you are dismantling the gearbox, and if you are planning to use the car for a long time, change the entire set, or else, go to an FNG, and change just one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by humyum View Post
...Flywheel because its already run 1.1 lakh kilometers ..
Quote:
Originally Posted by a4anurag View Post
..[*]Flywheel
Why the flywheel? If the clutch is not used till the end, to an extend, that it scores the flywheel, I don't think 1lack kms is a time where you change the flywheel. When OP is complaining about a high quote, why incur unnecessary expense?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swapnil4585 View Post
Had the synchronizer rings been the lone culprit, the gear would have slipped too.
Once slotted, the gear neednt slip, unless the gears itself is worn out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bullrun87 View Post
Very few people can make a clutch last 100k kms
I have a Ford Ikon, which ran on the original clutch till 1.6 lacs kms.
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Old 22nd September 2015, 11:11   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dhanushs View Post
Why the flywheel? When OP is complaining about a high quote, why incur unnecessary expense?
I know the cost factor but the reason I mentioned Flywheel in the list too was to have all parts new so that they bed-in well. I may be wrong too.

If it is not required then it can be omitted from the list but it is better if the Flywheel is checked and a rough estimate for the distance it would run hereon. If that distance is less then replacing it at a time is better rather than opening the gearbox again just to replace the Flywheel at a later stage.
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