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Old 7th May 2016, 01:31   #76
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Default Re: Bad experience turboing my Baleno at Race Concepts, Bangalore

@yzfrjs - so what is your next motive? I see your pattern in which you have been talking about me everywhere and everytime. You seem to be really frustrated in life. Would you like it if someone called you something else? You are talking about me getting personal, isn't everyone else getting person about me and questioning my credibility and efforts?

You can go on and on and interpret and conclude on every word of mine and like wise if u were on the other side of the fence even I could do the same riju.

James has his points and he can talk whatever he wants for whatever reasons he has towards us but I don't understand why everybody without knowing the truth is talking irrelevant things. We are on a public forum with thousands watching and reading this and unless you have anything to substantiate don't talk. I have the transparency to come out and even talk on the same thread where I am being bashed when we know of the efforts put over the years. James really knows why he came to us and I understand his frustration on discovering a broken oil line and a gasket etc. I have given my version. Also going with a timeline story of how he brushed his teeth the morning before he took delivery of the car and what color inner wear he wore etc is just way too much exaggeration for an automotive community. And things have been exaggerated well beyond real. This is like the everyday TV soap show. Go ahead. What next?

It's really frustrating beyond a point to even explain. With a hundred people pounding and talking back to back and quoting every word and analysing and fragmenting every letter in the statement is taking this conversation nowhere!

The owner was given the choice to come to us in Aug 2015 to fix all that he reported here now and today he comes up with a post. We see a trending scenario of how another tuner recently spoke about a build of mine and called it a joke and posted on social media. We get a lot of cars from other tuners after the builds have gone bad and as we speak we are building two 12 sec drag cars which were badly built by the previous tuners. Isn't it very easy for me to click pics and start a war of works against them. The tuners are very much active on this forum and have been discussed in the past of how their builds went bad. How ethical is it for one tuner to call another an idiot. This is a customer review and I m ok if James calls a spade a spade. Whatever is his version I am ready to listen and address if needed.

I don't see many people showing any interest when someone posts a good article on a good build and explains the technicalities. The threads get barely any views or comments. On the contrary a builds gets all the limelight when someone says "bad experience" and the whole community comes to help. I ve been on this forum since 12 years and I have seen this place grow from its roots. I bet not even 5% of the total population on this forum has a modded ride to understand what it is to have one and why tuning is the biggest thrill for an enthusiast. It's very easy to sit on the other side of the fence and call names. From what James said was his version of a bad experience with timelines not met as promised, a few fitment parts showing bad age, shoddy welds in hurry etc of whatever he wants to reason so be it. But how does that turn me into a con-artist and framing me in various ways. I started my journey as an enthusiast, turned into a racer and then started a business. I have built most of the fastest bikes and cars on the race track and in the process lost a lot of my personal life and money. Merely trying to achieve my personal.goals. cutting corners with a build is the last thing I want to ever do and those who know me know me very well how I go that extra mile to get what I want done. A budget build like this with parts from the customer is not going to fetch us any money. Most of you reading this are earning more per hour than what we earn per build.

I know I have been a blunt but apart from being a professional at work, I cant take personal acquisitions against me when the others don't know the story. This has affected me personally and is the only reason why this rant here!

Mod note: Mod Note : Abusive language – whether used directly or indirectly - is STRICTLY prohibited on Team-BHP. A decent communication protocol must be adhered to. Foul language and the use of abusive words / photographs in posts / avatars / signatures / topics are STRICTLY prohibited.

Last edited by GTO : 10th May 2016 at 10:00. Reason: Absolutely no abusive language, indirectly or directly, on Team-BHP
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Old 7th May 2016, 02:25   #77
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Default Re: Bad experience turboing my Baleno at Race Concepts, Bangalore

Been hearing about Joel since the day xBhp came back to life. But, after reading through 6 pages of different versions of the story, I can't possibly take sides here. But one thing is very clear - the way in which a grieving customer is being handled is appalling. A bad build can still be forgiven, but arrogance towards customer? Never.
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Old 7th May 2016, 02:52   #78
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Default Re: Bad experience turboing my Baleno at Race Concepts, Bangalore

@fieroid - I can see lots of genuine hurt by some / most of the responses from FMs and I can completely understand why it is so.

I can only imagine that you have a great journey as an enthusiast, racer and the business and from some of the FM posts that it is clear that there are many successful builds (otherwise, OP would have not approached you in the first place)

My dear friend participates in races and he had a performance tuning company and I can completely agree that it is very contagious enthusiasm to spend days, weeks, months to tweak, tune to achieve the desired results.

However, the above is much smaller minority community than the typical audience of this entire forum and reading some success stories, budding enthusiasts would like to try things out and come to businesses like yours. Their goals are very simple and possibly very different from the racing community which spends a good part of year in racing. These enthusiasts want a reliable mod to achieve their required results. It is all black & white here unless explicitly clarified forehand. For a given budget, time a set target mod to be achieved and it should work reliably which is completely different from tuning a race car. This can be more demanding and taxing than a race car tuning as one has to achieve a consistent, repeatable results and on top of it the customer has a set expectations (on how a business to be run etc). It is not like 'let us work together and see how it turns out' but more like ' the requirements are set and so please deliver'.

I am not sure whether I read it right or not, but I see more of the track mindset in your posts where people spend tonnes of money just on suspension, as an example (and hence I can see why you call this a small budget build) but the target customers (like OP) are entirely different. If I may take the liberty, And these are the most people who are even commenting here (including me). So, please do not feel bad for some of the posts here but at the same time the expectations that they have from your replies to the OP are very high purely from running a reliable, dependable business perspective.
See if you can reply to these targeted questions (as asked by another FM here
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...ml#post3967683 (Bad experience turboing my Baleno at Race Concepts, Bangalore))
as that is all people might wan to know on this thread and please do not be bothered by the remarks as you know for sure what your are capable of.
Peace.
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Old 7th May 2016, 06:56   #79
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Default Re: Bad experience turboing my Baleno at Race Concepts, Bangalore

Quote:
Originally Posted by yzfrj View Post
It's no wonder nobody trusts tuners anymore.
I hope you will modify this statement, because what it implies is that the people like me who do trust tuners are idiots, and I resent that. I have no problem if you dislike tuners, but it is wrong to make a blatant blanket statement.

Please remember that companies such as AMG, Brabus, Abarth, Alpina etc. all started out as small tuners, and must have had all kinds of issues before they became the well known brands that they are today.

Cheers.
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Old 7th May 2016, 06:58   #80
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Default Re: Bad experience turboing my Baleno at Race Concepts, Bangalore

I am sorry but fieroid's response above reminds of the time that a Honda dealer stole my Iridium spark plugs & claimed to have replaced brake pads. I made a big fuss (proved both mistakes had taken place). They offered to do the next service for free, in compensation. That left me fuming!

The resolution has to be commensurate with the nature of the failure. In my case, the amount was about 10k, IRC but that is not the issue. The core issue was the loss of trust. Offering a 2k 'free' service does not address that. (They did replace the brake pads) I dont know what would have satisfied me but a apology acknowledging the problem would have gone a great way towards letting me accept the 2k free service. Guess their legal prevented them or it never occurred to them to apologize. To this day I do not buy Honda.

A similar thing happened when a 3rd party service shop screwed up my Duke 390 when I left it with them to change the master cylinder, so much so that the fuel line was cut and petrol was leaking on top of the engine. Again no apology and the tu-tu mein-mein of "It is your fault". "It must have been like that when you brought it" and finally " what do you know about maintaining bikes". I dont need to; they were the experts. (BTW, the reason why I was recommended that I replace a perfectly good master cylinder - softness of the front brake returned about 1 month after the replacement. So, the basic issue was also not addressed! But that is a another story)

Similarly, in this case, the customer is deeply disturbed for having been taken for a ride by somebody whom he trusted. That is the main issue. (Nobody likes being made a fool of). He is also miffed about the money but says he has written it off to experience. In this situation, offering to just repair the problems found is not sufficient redressal. The loss of trust and the feeling of being made a fool is not addressed. That is what the customer feels, even if he is wrong about it. If fieroid does not address it, James is not going to be satisfied even if he gets back the 3 L or so that he spent.

IMO, a simple apology and an acknowledgement of what james is feeling will go a long way towards getting to a mutually acceptable solution. Now that this is so public, unfortunately the apology & the resolution has to be public as well, to save RC's reputation.

In marketing, they say one unhappy customer will cost you about 10 new customers. It is easy to calculate the revenue that has been stopped from coming to the door just because of james' dissatisfaction. Add to that the untold number people who are going 'hmmm....'.

While RC might feel done in, it is fairly clear that there is a shortage in the service delivered vs promised. So, clearly james has grounds for dissatisfaction. Even RC acknowledges that. Look at the above revenue loss and do a little bit more than what what RC thinks is the correct redress.

Because, one satisfied customer brings in about 6 more.

Last edited by sridhu : 7th May 2016 at 07:14.
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Old 7th May 2016, 08:06   #81
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Default Re: Bad experience turboing my Baleno at Race Concepts, Bangalore

This is just going round in circles and achieving nothing.

As a third party with no stake in the matter on either side, I'm still perplexed by my original question to Joel.

A newbie customer can be foolhardy in his expectations, but why couldn't Joel (the professional) take a stand on what can/can't be done at the very beginning?

If the OP was expecting unreasonable/impossible work w.r.t. time, cost, build standards, post-build support or whatever else, why not talk to him BEFORE taking the job and set reasonable expectations? Joel is a committed professional by his own and his other customers' testimonial, so why exact did it go so wrong with this one?

Worst case, if the customer refused to understand and continued with unreasonable demands, Joel still had the choice to refuse the job because he wouldn't be satisfied with the end result by his own high standards.

Contrasting with Nikhil's turbocharging experience with his Civic, the customer experience couldn't be further apart.

Nikhil knew exactly what he was getting into because his tuners spoke to him upfront what will/won't be possible and what kind of service he can expect overall, which doesn't seem to be the case on this one.

Even assuming the OP has no idea what he was getting into (which honestly most customers of anything don't, beyond a point), shouldn't it be the professional's job to set the context?

You know a customer has unreasonable expectations, you think he knows nothing about tuning and you aren't comfortable with what you as a competent professional are being asked to do. Why not just speak up and take a 'we'll do it properly or not at all" stand and let the customer make his own decision?

Not to forget, a good chunk of street build customers will always come with limited knowledge (compared to racing enthusiasts/full-time professionals), and if the onus at Race Concepts is on the paying customer to have in-depth knowledge before he approaches RC, it would serve your own best interests to make that clear upfront.

Last edited by Chetan_Rao : 7th May 2016 at 08:20.
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Old 7th May 2016, 09:37   #82
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Default Re: Bad experience turboing my Baleno at Race Concepts, Bangalore

Quote:
Originally Posted by keroo1099 View Post
I hope you will modify this statement, because what it implies is that the people like me who do trust tuners are idiots, and I resent that. I have no problem if you dislike tuners, but it is wrong to make a blatant blanket statement.
My apologies. I should have said "this is why most people don't trust tuners". For what it's worth, I own a tuned ride myself and touchwood, have no problems with my tuner.

That said, in my limited experience in the tuning scene, I see a general distrust of tuners that seems to be the norm, and I blame experiences like these for that. It is hard to retain your enthusiasm and faith when you have been taken for a ride and then treated like dirt. Most people would have cut their losses, sold the car, got a diesel and moved on with life, whilst using this experience to their near and dear ones away from the tuning scene.
So please tell me who is worse, the person that botched the job or the person who let the world know about said botched job.

As you rightly mentioned, everyone makes mistakes. How they deal with those mistakes is what sets them apart. When some companies put out defective cars and recall them unconditionally, people grumble for a bit and the world moves on. When they behave like GM and fail to own up to their mistakes, they get lampooned. History is repeating itself here.
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Old 7th May 2016, 10:35   #83
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Default Re: Bad experience turboing my Baleno at Race Concepts, Bangalore

@ fieroid
I have read your post number of times but i fail to understand why weren't you answering his calls or keeping him waiting at RD? I mean that would surely raise the alarm bells for me, i do understand you have your racing stuff but a simple sms would go a long way.

If the OP was using bad Chinese parts you should been upfront and declined rather then do a shoddy job and burn his money.
Surely i don't take up any jobs which are not to my liking right at the start no matter of lucrative profit i would make of it.

I am still to understand the clarification of using Chinese parts being provided by james and you billing him for it, if that is true then it does raises question about ethics my friend.
I do understand the you offered to rectify the work but the very fact james declined must be cause you dragged this way too far and damaged trust beyond repair.
Having a neutral approach right from the start this thread was started,i also went through the discussion about your big bore kits on other forum and boy they don't speak highly.
I hope this whole episode ends on a peaceful note.
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Old 7th May 2016, 11:05   #84
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Apart from all I have said in my earlier post, I also find this excuse of "being busy with races hence the delay and no responses" really weird. To top it all, their are certain other members who are supporting this excuse. I would support it too, if and a BIG if at that, you had informed OP about your race track commitments superseding everything else, before accepting his car to work on. He gave you his car to work on, and he paid you for it. It should not be his problem if you are to host a party for The President of United States.

All in all, Joel has a lot to take care of if he is looking forward to close this issue. Merely saying that the OP could bring his car to get it repaired does not sounds very convincing. I also feel strongly that there have been lapses on Joel's part(The way he has chosen to ignore some very valid questions) and he should accept those mistakes gracefully rather than getting into mudslinging.

Mistakes happen, no big deal. What sets you apart from the rest is how you deal with those mistakes.

Last edited by Engine_Roars : 7th May 2016 at 11:11.
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Old 7th May 2016, 12:51   #85
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Default Re: Bad experience turboing my Baleno at Race Concepts, Bangalore

Jesus tapdancing Christ!

Nylon braided oil lines? Blocked turbo coolant lines? This wins races?

Holy crap, someone needs to tell the tuning world that they don't need to do half of the stuff they do to make competition winning cars! Someone get Import Performance on the line!

After travelling from another state, keeping me waiting at someone else's place while not responding to my calls would be enough for me to blow my top.

I have only one question to all the people justifying the tooner. Would you accept this behaviour from your vehicle's A.S.S? How quickly would you round up some friends and cause a ruckus at their place?

james, you have the patience of a saint. I would've been in jail, had I been in your place.
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Old 7th May 2016, 13:42   #86
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Default Re: Bad experience turboing my Baleno at Race Concepts, Bangalore

Leaving the Chinese parts (irrespective of who has got it) and the quality of work aside, making a paying customer wait at someones place that too after agreeing to attend is sheer unethical / unprofessional behavior. I didn't come across any reasonable explanation (if there is one) in any of the responses from RC for making the customer wait for a whole day, and at the end of the day it requires a third person to let know that customer that he would not be attended .

I do understand that sometimes work may not go as it was planned for various reasons, but stuffs like not attending / not communicating shows that the customer was not at all important, and I do not wish to get any services from a person not willing to attend as agreed and not give importance to my time.
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Old 7th May 2016, 15:24   #87
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Default Re: Bad experience turboing my Baleno at Race Concepts, Bangalore

I have read the whole thread, @ james- With the chinese parts/fakes/replicas /used disaster was eminent , even if braided lines and better gaskets would have been used.
It seems you have not researched enough, a turbo is to be selected after reading the compressor maps and doing the math for your engine not buying what is available.

The high handedness of the tuner, not answering phone calls, not informing you about braided lines, blocked water lines are signs of the tuner not respecting the customer. It should have been your first sign to run away.
Half a year to slap on a turbo is a pathetic.

I have just finished turboing my car, and I know what is in my car, I know the parts are geniuine because I have bought them from shops ( turbokits.com and monkeywrenchracing.com mainly) and not from an ebay guy sitting in his bedroom.
I know what parts are bulletproof , some parts are are not top notch( i wanted to save money) , my installer has informed me of these things. (KS motorsport, BOmbay).
I know the risks , I had hiccups in the beginning as with any custom job, but all are ironed out now.
Its all about being transparent. and its your car, lift the hood , you can see no braided hoses, put them in , insist for them. You have been negligent and uneducated about the whole turbo business and have been taken for a ride, which in today's bad bad world is not surprising.
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Old 7th May 2016, 16:24   #88
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Default Re: Bad experience turboing my Baleno at Race Concepts, Bangalore

I am no way associated with the modification or tuning business, I infact love to keep my rides bone stock. The big reason is reliability and manufacturers warranty. My close friend has had a bitter experience with the so called race dynamics diesel tuning box, installed on a 2007 Safari Dicor. The plug and play box which is nothing but a separate ECU, caused his two fuel injectors to fail, turbo to leak oil and finally lead to a engine runaway, the first one I witnessed, leading to a blown head and damaged cylinders. So potential tuners, it's buyers beware.
Regarding this particular case, its muck thrown by both sides, however considering Joel's replies one can't expect much by means of post sales service or support.
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Old 7th May 2016, 22:59   #89
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Default Re: Bad experience turboing my Baleno at Race Concepts, Bangalore

I don't want to re-rant so I'm putting up the link which echoes my sentiments for both threads alike.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/modifi...ml#post3968504 (Bad Experience - Code 6 Tuning, Bangalore)
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Old 8th May 2016, 00:39   #90
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Default Re: Bad experience turboing my Baleno at Race Concepts, Bangalore

Hi Paras, the general tone of your post is bad. However...

Quote:
Originally Posted by paras211 View Post
With the chinese parts/fakes/replicas /used disaster was eminent ,
I beg to differ. Im sure the turbo would have lasted for quite a while more if not for oil starvation. Even with the worn shaft, it was boosting normally. The issue, as mentioned earlier was the thick embarrassing smoke. AFAIK just the turbo was a replica. Can you tell me what else was fake/replica? you seem to know a lot about all the parts that went in.
Quote:
Originally Posted by paras211 View Post
It seems you have not researched enough, a turbo is to be selected after reading the compressor maps and doing the math for your engine not buying what is available.
Can you please elaborate on your compressor map reading techniques and interpreting techniques? Maybe I could learn something or maybe we could teach you something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paras211 View Post
I have just finished turboing my car, and I know what is in my car, I know the parts are geniuine because I have bought them from shops ( turbokits.com and monkeywrenchracing.com mainly) and not from an ebay guy sitting in his bedroom.
I know what parts are bulletproof , some parts are are not top notch( i wanted to save money) , my installer has informed me of these things. (KS motorsport, BOmbay).
Im super happy for you. Its always great to know that a mod was successful and someone is enjoin it. Maybe you could start a thread on the car. Would love to learn more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paras211 View Post
you can see no braided hoses, put them in ,
Can you elaborate on how to check if a braided hose with a rubber sleeve is steel or nylon braided without cutting open the sleeve? That info will help a lot of people who are getting ready to go FI.

Cheers!

Last edited by james : 8th May 2016 at 00:44. Reason: typo
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