Go Back   Team-BHP > Under the Hood > Technical Stuff


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 21st June 2016, 18:36   #1
Senior - BHPian
 
dZired's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Jaipur
Posts: 1,730
Thanked: 7,489 Times
Default ZF starts production of dual-clutch 8-speed gearbox

ZF Friedrichshafen AG, the famous automotive component manufacturer from Germany, has officially started production of an all-new 8-speed dual-clutch transmission unit.

This new transmission, named 8DT, will be manufactured at the company’s production facility in Brandenburg, Germany. The company is reportedly putting in more than 100 million Euros for the production of the new 8-speed transmission.

Engineers at ZF and Porsche have collectively developed a hybrid transmission modular kit, which is based on the new dual clutch transmission. This particular modular kit will be compatible with both standard and all-wheel drive systems.

Source: ET Auto

Name:  Capture.JPG
Views: 1850
Size:  57.7 KB

Link to Team-BHP News

Last edited by dZired : 21st June 2016 at 18:38.
dZired is offline   (10) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 21st June 2016, 19:37   #2
Senior - BHPian
 
srishiva's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Bengaluru
Posts: 3,573
Thanked: 814 Times
Default Re: ZF starts production of dual-clutch 8-speed gearbox

Hopefully they will have the same smooth shifting nature that ZF has in normal ATs. I remember in U.S, Audi had to move to normal ZF AT since people did not like the jerky starts of dual clutch in S4.

They should also consider introducing single clutch auto shifters in our market.
srishiva is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 22nd June 2016, 10:14   #3
BHPian
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: RJ-02,DL,MH-12
Posts: 920
Thanked: 1,080 Times
Default Re: ZF starts production of dual-clutch 8-speed gearbox

Automatics are the future; yesterday someone shared an article from ET about the traffic density in Mumbai which is close to about 500 passenger car units (PCU) per km. It is necessary to switch from conventional gear based transmissions to auto-boxes.

Players like M&M and Tata with least investment in automatic transmissions are also looking at options to the compete in the market where other companies have their in-house automatic lineups.

I don't know but somehow I feel that extensive use of automatics also indicate market maturity as all developed economies (EU and the US) have larger share of these technologies compared to manual transmission.

Companies like ZF can certainly gain from economies of scale by tapping Indian market and car producers in India as it serves as export hub for many of them. Simple, easy to maintain and reliable automatics are required in India and I would still not consider AMT as an option for the country; it has to be the conventional automatic technology be it the torque convertors or CVT. DSG and DCT are relatively complex and may not be cost effective for entry level cars.

Cheers

Last edited by i74js : 22nd June 2016 at 10:16.
i74js is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 22nd June 2016, 11:37   #4
GTO
Team-BHP Support
 
GTO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Bombay
Posts: 47,713
Thanked: 89,079 Times
Default Re: ZF starts production of dual-clutch 8-speed gearbox

This is certainly an odd move because:

- The current 8-speed ZF is the best automatic gearbox out there. It is simply fantastic! The gearbox scores on smoothness, response time and shift speed. Even the manual mode is aggressive. I can't think of a single downside to the current ZF 8-speed.

- Car makers like Audi & Ford are actually moving away from dual-clutch ATs due to their initial jerkiness, poor reliability & customer complaints.

Keeping that in mind, why is ZF bringing out a dual-clutch? Only reason I can think of is an order from a car manufacturer. ZF, after all, is a component manufacturer who'll give car manufacturers whatever they want.
GTO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd June 2016, 13:22   #5
Senior - BHPian
 
quickdraw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 1,008
Thanked: 1,284 Times
Default Re: ZF starts production of dual-clutch 8-speed gearbox

Quote:
Originally Posted by srishiva View Post
I remember in U.S, Audi had to move to normal ZF AT since people did not like the jerky starts of dual clutch in S4.
According to this article it was because the old dual clutch couldn't take the torque. I actually have a friend who drives a S4 so i'll definitely check this out. I doubt people who buy the 'S' version cars will complain about aggressive gearshifts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
This is certainly an odd move because:

- The current 8-speed ZF is the best automatic gearbox out there. It is simply fantastic! The gearbox scores on smoothness, response time and shift speed. Even the manual mode is aggressive. I can't think of a single downside to the current ZF 8-speed.

- Car makers like Audi & Ford are actually moving away from dual-clutch ATs due to their initial jerkiness, poor reliability & customer complaints.

Keeping that in mind, why is ZF bringing out a dual-clutch? Only reason I can think of is an order from a car manufacturer. ZF, after all, is a component manufacturer who'll give car manufacturers whatever they want.
I think you answered your own question there; its a logical next move. The ZF 8 Speed is legendary gearbox making its way into so many amazing cars and been perfected over the years. It should gain significantly in form of faster shift times thanks to dual clutches and I'm very sure that the amount of 'jerk' you get during shifting can be controlled via software. Lastly I'm quite sure ZF will be able to create this sans the reliability issues and make its way into some amazing cars. I doubt that a single car manufacturer can justify a 100mn investment. This too will be modular and will make its way into many different models. I'm just surprised they didn't put more gears in.

Last edited by quickdraw : 22nd June 2016 at 13:23. Reason: typos
quickdraw is offline   (2) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 22nd June 2016, 16:11   #6
Senior - BHPian
 
srishiva's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Bengaluru
Posts: 3,573
Thanked: 814 Times
Default Re: ZF starts production of dual-clutch 8-speed gearbox

Quote:
Originally Posted by quickdraw View Post
According to this article it was because the old dual clutch couldn't take the torque. I actually have a friend who drives a S4 so i'll definitely check this out. I doubt people who buy the 'S' version cars will complain about aggressive gearshifts.



I think you answered your own question there; its a logical next move. The ZF 8 Speed is legendary gearbox making its way into so many amazing cars and been perfected over the years. It should gain significantly in form of faster shift times thanks to dual clutches and I'm very sure that the amount of 'jerk' you get during shifting can be controlled via software. Lastly I'm quite sure ZF will be able to create this sans the reliability issues and make its way into some amazing cars. I doubt that a single car manufacturer can justify a 100mn investment. This too will be modular and will make its way into many different models. I'm just surprised they didn't put more gears in.
Quoting from Car and Driver
Audi says it went for the conventional automatic because U.S. customers prefer the smooth torque-multiplication effect when taking off at a stoplight, something the dual-clutch gearbox is unable to provide.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...t-drive-review

Maybe, there were multiple reasons!
srishiva is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 22nd June 2016, 17:11   #7
BHPian
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Pune
Posts: 593
Thanked: 631 Times
Default Re: ZF starts production of dual-clutch 8-speed gearbox

Some time back I had seen an older BMW X5 torque converter opened up for repair at a local workshop, being interested in it the owner had called me over to have a look.

The Torque Converter had come with a lock arrangement giving it a positive drive once locked up, in BMW 8 speed with 30d the locking occurs in 2nd gear itself, though if you throttle hard it takes place in 3rd. Drive with a light foot you feel it lock at as low as 700 rpm to which RPM falls after 1st to 2nd shift. Note that 30d has idle at 600 RPM far lower than the 20d's 800-850.

In my opinion this arrangement gives torque multiplication at start, protects transmission from sudden load while taking a hard start, jerk free operation at low speeds, and the positive drive once locked. The rotating fluid mass, with the stator induced turbulence is likely to consume some power, making this arrangement fractionally less efficient than dual clutches, but lot simpler, and far more efficient than older generation converters which did not lock up or locked only in top. AMT's have dangerous amount of lag, with accidents reported due to them, while DCT's are known for their issues which are reducing by the day as engineers work on them, but they may probably never be totally eliminated.

With smaller diesels being the norm in India. (Even premium cars have comparatively smaller diesels 2~2.2 at most 3 Lit ones) Torque multiplication is needed, and a 6 or more ratio transmission with lock up type torque converter is actually ideal for our conditions.

Note performance difference between a Verna AT & Elantra AT with both P & D. Elantra the slightly heavier sibling but with a 6 speed box whose converter lock operates from as low as 30kph in 3rd upto 6th accelerates better yet returns better fuel efficiency than the Verna with 4 ratios whose converter locks only in 4th and above 70, though both share the same engines.

Rahul

Last edited by GTO : 23rd June 2016 at 10:53. Reason: Several typos
Rahul Rao is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote Received Infraction
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
RE Bullet 4 speed to 5 speed gearbox swap LOGS Motorbikes 17 30th July 2012 10:50
Driving the Ford Fiesta dual-clutch Automatic on the Buddh International Circuit benbsb29 Test-Drives & Initial Ownership Reports 31 19th April 2012 16:17
Honda Announces the New Dual Clutch in Large-displacement Sport Bikes Parm Superbikes & Imports 1 9th September 2009 18:16
Class Starts Early; Indigo CS launched; starts at 3.79lac jkdas The Indian Car Scene 208 28th May 2008 18:53


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 05:32.

Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks