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Old 8th December 2016, 13:36   #31
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Default Re: Disadvantages of keyless engine start systems

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Originally Posted by ashis89 View Post
I completely agree with all your points. I get to experience the keyless experience at frequent intervals in my friend's Baleno (over the past 8 months and 10k kms) and I must say, the experience has never been good. I will share my experience below:

1. I agree with your first point about steering being locked if the car is not on. This thought crosses my mind several times and it's scary to say the least.

2. Since we usually keep the key in our pocket, if I walk off for a small errand the car will die. Eg: If I stop somewhere and get out of the car while other passengers are waiting, I want the car to be on and the AC running. But if I forget to leave the fob, the car dies.

3. The most attractive feature is the access key on the door handles. Key the key in your pocket/bag, walk to the car, unlock with the access key, push start button and drive off. This means you don't have to take our the keys at any point. Let's say, I am slightly away from the car (even 3-4 ft away) and my friend wants to unlock the door, he can't. Either I walk nearer or I take the keys out to unlock. (We have faced this situation umpteen times and it becomes tough if your hands are full of grocery bags, etc).

4. I hate the routine when I have to go to the Aux power mode without starting the car. Almost everytime, we end up starting the car though we don't intend to. I miss the control of a physical key.

Overall, given an option, I would choose not to have it in my next car. It's presence can almost be a deal breaker for me.
I drive a Maruti Dzire ZDI AGS, with certainty I can say, I never switch off the engine when I have to do small errands (specially in summers), my car has never died out on me.
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Old 8th December 2016, 13:38   #32
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Default Re: Disadvantages of keyless engine start systems

Summing up:

1. You have 2 full carry bags, one in each hand and you want to get inside the car

Keyless - put down one bag, touch the sensor, pull the door open and get inside
Manual key - same as above

2. You just want to listen to music inside the car
Keyless - dont press any pedal and push the start/stop button
manual key - turn the key once

3. Key battery died
Keyless - take out key and touch the request sensor (as mentioned by some)
Maunal key - take out the key and unlock

4. Opening the boot from inside
keyless - open the door unlock button manually
manual key - same as above

5. your friend walks off with key in his pocket while dropping him to the airport
keyless - drive off hoping the car dont stall before you reach home
manual key - not possible (either you cant forget to take the keys, or you are stranded there)

anything else?
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Old 8th December 2016, 13:51   #33
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Default Re: Disadvantages of keyless engine start systems

The range of operation is the only issue that i have with KESS systems

1) I have a friend who mentioned his Nissan Sunny can be opened and driven away even if the key is a distance away (like 5 to 8 metres). If this is indeed true then i see it as a security problem as there are many situations where you are within a range of 5 to 8 metres but not paying attention to the car
e.g car parked in the porch but the key lying in the drawing room with the door closed

I would like to understand the real world typical range of operation of this systems. If people can share their experiance of different cars it will be good

Personally i prefer the key as i am quite absent minded and misplace things. With the key atleast i will not be able to drive away and be forced to look for it
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Old 8th December 2016, 14:45   #34
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Default Re: Disadvantages of keyless engine start systems

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nav-i-gator View Post
Summing up:

1. You have 2 full carry bags, one in each hand and you want to get inside the car

Keyless - put down one bag, touch the sensor, pull the door open and get inside
Manual key - same as above

2. You just want to listen to music inside the car
Keyless - dont press any pedal and push the start/stop button
manual key - turn the key once

3. Key battery died
Keyless - take out key and touch the request sensor (as mentioned by some)
Maunal key - take out the key and unlock

4. Opening the boot from inside
keyless - open the door unlock button manually
manual key - same as above

5. your friend walks off with key in his pocket while dropping him to the airport
keyless - drive off hoping the car dont stall before you reach home
manual key - not possible (either you cant forget to take the keys, or you are stranded there)

anything else?
Another major issue (not technical) is that cost of replacement of the damn things - for the Crysta, it is something like 20-25k (really!). That is about 1% of the value of the car! Since you are stuck with the manufacturer, you have no option but pay!

Couple of rejoinders:
- on my Crysta, there is a button on the boot (a dimple) that opens all doors, just like the request sensor.
- In your list, you have missed the idea that the car can be hacked remotely or proximally WITHOUT A KEY and driven away, with no physical damage. That is the key issue, IMO.

To answer a question somebody asked, the Crysta working range is 26-30in from the sensor, on the outside. I have not tested if someone can open the other side if you are standing close to the door on this side.
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Old 8th December 2016, 15:12   #35
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Default Re: Disadvantages of keyless engine start systems

Quote:
Originally Posted by sridhu View Post
You can, technically, leave the key behind and drive away the car
Yes. That is a major security problem. Now, I am thankful for my old age XUV 500 without this engine start-stop button.

Quote:
Originally Posted by J.Ravi View Post
I tested my son's Hyundai i20 Active 1.4 CRDi SX of November 2015 make. I sat on the driver's seat and my son with the car's key fob on the rear seat. I started the car. He left the car and went inside home. I took i20 Active for a spin around home without the key fob. No problem.
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Old 8th December 2016, 15:29   #36
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Default Re: Disadvantages of keyless engine start systems

A funny story regarding remote keys at Jalopnik

https://jalopnik.com/thank-you-for-n...car-1747550693
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Old 8th December 2016, 15:57   #37
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Default Re: Disadvantages of keyless engine start systems

Quote:
Originally Posted by J.Ravi View Post
Yes. That is a major security problem. Now, I am thankful for my old age XUV 500 without this engine start-stop button.
But wouldn't this be analogous to leaving a non start stop car's engine running and stepping out of the car? Both cases, the car can be driven away, so this problem is not specific to only the ones equipped with the start/stop button. Only difference is key is inside the car in one while not in the other.

I understand that this can cause hardship when someone other than the driver of the car moves away with the key, but the security problem remains irrespective of the car being key/keyless.
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Old 8th December 2016, 16:16   #38
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Default Re: Disadvantages of keyless engine start systems

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mohan Mathew A View Post
1) I have a friend who mentioned his Nissan Sunny can be opened and driven away even if the key is a distance away (like 5 to 8 metres). If this is indeed true then i see it as a security problem as there are many situations where you are within a range of 5 to 8 metres but not paying attention to the car
e.g car parked in the porch but the key lying in the drawing room with the door closed
5 to 8 Metres is a bit too long for a keyfob to be operational. In my car, Elantra, I need to be within 2 - 3 feet of the car to open the car door. Also, the keyfob should be inside the car to actually "start" the car.

If suppose, I leave the car idling and go to a shop for an errand with the key in my pocket, then technically, someone can drive the car away. But if he runs out of fuel or shuts down the car, then the car will be stranded and cannot be started again. Some cars do have the feature to shutdown the car engine after the keyfob is not detected inside the car for a specific duration. I never tried this feature in Elantra.

The biggest advantage of the keyless engine start systems is that you will never be able to lock yourself "out" of the car.
Another advantage, the lock cannot be duplicated easily by a local locksmith or keywala. It will take some sophisticated and knowledgeable thief to crack the keyfob code using some interceptor.
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Old 8th December 2016, 16:32   #39
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Default Re: Disadvantages of keyless engine start systems

Quote:
Originally Posted by arvind71181 View Post
But wouldn't this be analogous to leaving a non start stop car's engine running and stepping out of the car? Both cases, the car can be driven away, so this problem is not specific to only the ones equipped with the start/stop button. Only difference is key is inside the car in one while not in the other.
But what would you do if you manage to stall the car on your way and you don't have the key fob with you
With a conventional system, you would be able to crank the car back again.

Last edited by starter : 8th December 2016 at 16:37.
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Old 8th December 2016, 16:33   #40
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Default Re: Disadvantages of keyless engine start systems

This happened to my colleague with an Hyundai Accent. He parked his vehicle in a mall and gave the keyfob to the valet. Unfortunately the valet had no idea of the Start-Stop button and after parking the car didn't switch off the engine. The car didn't have a lot of fuel at the time and engine kept running for hours till my friend returned. Result... the entire fuel was used up. Of course, this is not a problem of the technology itself, more an issue of the technologically challenged. But it can't be denied that such things will happen, till keyless vehicles get more popular
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Old 8th December 2016, 16:40   #41
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Default Re: Disadvantages of keyless engine start systems

I drive a manual 2015 XUV5OO FWD, W10 version equipped with feature we are discussing it here. To give you perspective on how things work, here are the snapshots from user manual itself -

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Now I would like to tell you few things in my last 40K Kms and 1.6 years of experience -
  1. Never had trouble with this feature!
  2. I always keep the key in my pocket and use request sensor on the door. It works only when I am in proximity of 1-2 ft from door. So no radio waves scanning chances unless you are near me.
  3. I have few times drove with two keys - kept on inside car and other in my pocket. The key inside the car was automatically disabled. So technically I had the key with me and key inside the car was just a mechanical key, unused.
  4. Some times I have forgotten the key inside and tried to lock the door - it does not lock.
The bottom line is, not even a single time I have faced the problem and cannot be more happier than this.

My routine - I always keep the car in neutral and use handbrake. When I open the door, I first press the start button without pressing clutch. That does initial dance on the dashboard and gets all electrical and systems fired up. When I am in position to start the car, I press the clutch fully and crank the car by pressing the start button one more time. Once car starts, I put on my seat belt, start AC, check mirrors, put on my shades and then drive out. That allows car to warm up a little and idle, for me to take stock of things and get ready for drive. Nothing mandatory but nevertheless good habit I believe that wont hurt in the long run anyway. Just used to this
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Old 8th December 2016, 16:56   #42
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Default Re: Disadvantages of keyless engine start systems

One of the biggest advantage I have seen with keyless entry system is nobody outside can take the car key. To eloborate more, I had an incident where a crook was trying to take my car key from outside and you should look at his face on seeing that there is no key. Loved it :-)

Last edited by sud : 8th December 2016 at 16:58.
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Old 8th December 2016, 16:58   #43
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Default Re: Disadvantages of keyless engine start systems

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nav-i-gator View Post
Summing up:



2. You just want to listen to music inside the car
Keyless - dont press any pedal and push the start/stop button
manual key - turn the key once

anything else?
This I learnt today from you. I was wondering how to listen to radio in my car without igniting the engine. Thanks.

Its unlikely that key fob battery will die out so soon. Nexa guy told me that my S cross key fob battery can start the engine 25000 times. So even if I start my car 10 times a day I dont have to worry for 6-7 years and after that I will have the spare key for another 6-7 years.

Since I am new to diesel I often experienced engine stopping while gear changing in traffic and it made the steering completely jammed and it remained so until I could restart the engine. Isn't it against the system of ABS? I wonder if it happened on a highway when I had to suddenly apply the breaks and in the process if engine stopped, will the steering get locked? making me incapable of maneuvering the vehicle in such moments? This is my first car with ABS.

Will appreciate some comments. Thanks
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Old 8th December 2016, 17:17   #44
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Default Re: Disadvantages of keyless engine start systems

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Originally Posted by starter View Post
But what would you do if you manage to stall the car on your way and you don't have the key fob with you
With a conventional system, you would be able to crank the car back again.
Yup agreed, thats why I stated that it would be very hard if you dont have the car key with you and drive away, which should ideally be a rare use case.

But from a security perspective it makes the car (relatively) more secure as even if the car is taken away, he can only drive until the car is switched off.
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Old 8th December 2016, 17:20   #45
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Default Re: Disadvantages of keyless engine start systems

Not sure how this would work on keyless one,but I dont think you can push and crank the car the desi style when your battery dies.
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