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Old 8th December 2016, 17:21   #46
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Default Re: Disadvantages of keyless engine start systems

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Originally Posted by arvind71181 View Post
Yup agreed, thats why I stated that it would be very hard if you dont have the car key with you and drive away, which should ideally be a rare use case.

But from a security perspective it makes the car (relatively) more secure as even if the car is taken away, he can only drive until the car is switched off.
Relative to what? cars with manual key wont have this scenario altogether. If key is in your pocket, it means that the car engine is already stopped and no one other than you can even start the car.
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Old 8th December 2016, 17:29   #47
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Default Re: Disadvantages of keyless engine start systems

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Originally Posted by Nav-i-gator View Post
Relative to what? cars with manual key wont have this scenario altogether. If key is in your pocket, it means that the car engine is already stopped and no one other than you can even start the car.
The situation where the car key is out of the car while it is running in a start/stop enabled car is analogous to a normal car whose engine is running, obviously with the key in it. In such a case, if someone manages to take away your car, he can pretty much go wherever he wants with it. The same is possible with the start/stop enabled car as well with a caveat that he cannot restart the car if he stops it.

Hence the term, relative as according to *my* opinion, it might be possible to recover the car faster.

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Originally Posted by GJ01 View Post
The point here is that the person has gained entry into your vehicle. Once he / she drives it away, there is nothing stopping them to steal items from the car or abuse it and break things out of frustration.
I agree with your point, but the same situation exists for a normal non keyless entry car as well, so my point is this is not a flaw inherent to only the cars equipped with start/stop.

Last edited by arvind71181 : 8th December 2016 at 17:36.
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Old 8th December 2016, 17:32   #48
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Default Re: Disadvantages of keyless engine start systems

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Originally Posted by arvind71181 View Post
But from a security perspective it makes the car (relatively) more secure as even if the car is taken away, he can only drive until the car is switched off.
The point here is that the person has gained entry into your vehicle. Once he / she drives it away, there is nothing stopping them to steal items from the car or abuse it and break things out of frustration.

I have another point to put forward: Insurance Claims

If I have the keyfob in my pocket, and the engine is running, and someone steals it. They may just take it away and realize 10 / 20 km later that its not worth the effort and damage the car (rip seats, dent body panels, break windshield - whatever) would the Insurance company be able to deny my claim stating negligence at my part ?
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Old 8th December 2016, 17:39   #49
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Default Re: Disadvantages of keyless engine start systems

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Originally Posted by sridhu View Post
Another major issue (not technical) is that cost of replacement of the damn things - for the Crysta, it is something like 20-25k (really!). That is about 1% of the value of the car! Since you are stuck with the manufacturer, you have no option but pay!

Couple of rejoinders:
- on my Crysta, there is a button on the boot (a dimple) that opens all doors, just like the request sensor.
- In your list, you have missed the idea that the car can be hacked remotely or proximally WITHOUT A KEY and driven away, with no physical damage. That is the key issue, IMO.

To answer a question somebody asked, the Crysta working range is 26-30in from the sensor, on the outside. I have not tested if someone can open the other side if you are standing close to the door on this side.
OK to start with, I have one car which is having only key-based entry (the old school way), next is a keyless entry and the new i20 is keyless start as well.
I am really happy with the keyless start system for the following reasons
1. Once i have the key in my pocket, i dont have to worry about it .
2. When I switch off the car and walk away from it, i dont have to worry about forgeting the keys in the car, now remember what happens if the keys are left in the car for a keyless locking mechanism, you will stop the car, walk out of the car, the car usually locks itself again within 30 seconds of no activity (my autocop as well as scorpio car security system do this) which means you will have to get the backup controller to unlock the car

Now I need to clear some points here
1. In my i20, the range is barely 3 feet , once you move out of it, the car locks itself immediately, so not sure if cars have 10 feet range etc
2. If people say, such cars can be hacked, hacking a keyless entry system or even a key based system is not too hard either (I dont know the handle but there was a T-BHP user whose scorpio got stolen since its immobiliser code was not reset, he then got an Aria)
3. Now I am not a big fan of leaving the car on and stepping out of it, it looks good in movies but I refrain from doing such stunts
4. Coming to the cost, i am not sure which cost is being referred to here, is it the cost of the key fob, the cost of the entire keyless system or a part of it. But I can tell you this, in my Autocop system (purchase cost was 7000), accidentally one of the keys went into sea water (I forgot they were in my pocket), now the cost of repairing it came to more than 1000 rupees, which is almost 15%, so we need to be ready to pay for it. But if I am not wrong, this is covered in warranty and that is what I read in i20 thread

What i will go and check today is whether using the request sensor in the boot unlocks the whole car, or the boot,
I remember being told by the sales rep that boot will not open if the fob is in the car, it needs to be near the boot
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Old 8th December 2016, 17:51   #50
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Default Re: Disadvantages of keyless engine start systems

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Originally Posted by shridhar.s.i View Post
What i will go and check today is whether using the request sensor in the boot unlocks the whole car, or the boot,
I remember being told by the sales rep that boot will not open if the fob is in the car, it needs to be near the boot
I can confirm this. The sensor will only unlock the boot. So, if you are standing near the boot (of a locked car), open the boot to put in all your shopping bags, no one can open the driver's door and drive away, if that is what some people's concern is. Vice-versa, if you are standing close to the drivers door, and the car is locked, no one can open the boot either.

If the keyfob is inside the car, you cannot open the boot from outside unless the boot is opened using the keyfob or the manual lever.

Well, the makers of this system would have definitely put it through all such tests and scenarios. Otherwise, this system wouldn't have got such acceptance worldwide, would it?
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Old 8th December 2016, 17:56   #51
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Default Re: Disadvantages of keyless engine start systems

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Originally Posted by Mohan Mathew A View Post
The range of operation is the only issue that i have with KESS systems

I have a friend who mentioned his Nissan Sunny can be opened and driven away even if the key is a distance away (like 5 to 8 metres).
The range is very less, you need to be near your car.
In my car even if I go and stand near taillights the system does not work for driver doorside.

Your friend must be exaggerating, 5-8 metres is not possible and he would be having sleepless nights if that's the case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
The main advantages of keyless entry & go are:

2. The engine start button looks cool .

Point 1 is definitely useful; point 2 is useless (apart from the aesthetics).
All about that little bit of comfort.

The biggest advantage of point 2 is at night.
No need to bend and put that key in slot.
Useful feature for newbie drivers/lady drivers/Senior citizens who may need to fiddle around for key slot.

Apart from that, it must be a deterrent for not so technically advanced car thieves.

In cases of road rage where people tend to pull out keys , this is a really safe system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashis89 View Post
If the car stays on even when you walk away with the key, it is safety concern as someone can drive away. But IIRC, it gives warning and the car dies after not detected for some time (in Baleno).
I have always felt this feature to be a gimmick rather than having much utility.
Car stays on and you walk away - Situation is similar to car with keys.
In car with keys when you walk away when car is running, is also a safety concern. In keyless the car constantly beeps and reminds you about that.

In Baleno it beeps, but car does not die even if you keep it running for long time.In fact beep dies after some time.

It is a utility feature in some cases.
For eg, if I have a baby in my arm and shopping bags in my hands, I need not pull out the key to open my car/neither do I have to put the bags down and pull out the keys.

Think about rainy season and you will appreciate this feature more.
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Old 8th December 2016, 17:56   #52
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Default Re: Disadvantages of keyless engine start systems

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Originally Posted by sukhoi30 View Post
I can confirm this. The sensor will only unlock the boot. So, if you are standing near the boot (of a locked car), open the boot to put in all your shopping bags, no one can open the driver's door and drive away, if that is what some people's concern is. Vice-versa, if you are standing close to the drivers door, and the car is locked, no one can open the boot either.

If the keyfob is inside the car, you cannot open the boot from outside unless the boot is opened using the keyfob or the manual lever.

Well, the makers of this system would have definitely put it through all such tests and scenarios. Otherwise, this system wouldn't have got such acceptance worldwide, would it?
so this clears a lot of doubts then. one have to stand close to the door/boot to open THAT door/boot only. what remains of concern is the range, as in - if you are standing close to the driver side door, can the passenger side door be opened by pressing the request sensor? If the range is more than 5 ft, i guess there is a risk of someone opening the passenger side door and running away with valuables inside.
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Old 8th December 2016, 18:02   #53
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Default Re: Disadvantages of keyless engine start systems

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Originally Posted by Nav-i-gator View Post
one have to stand close to the door/boot to open THAT door/boot only
You answered this in your quote. It will only open driver side door and nothing else.
You will have to manually press central locking to open all doors.

Range is like 0-3 feet at max from my experience with my car.

Last edited by silverado : 8th December 2016 at 18:04.
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Old 8th December 2016, 18:02   #54
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Default Re: Disadvantages of keyless engine start systems

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Originally Posted by Nav-i-gator View Post
so this clears a lot of doubts then. one have to stand close to the door/boot to open THAT door/boot only. what remains of concern is the range, as in - if you are standing close to the driver side door, can the passenger side door be opened by pressing the request sensor? If the range is more than 5 ft, i guess there is a risk of someone opening the passenger side door and running away with valuables inside.
No it wont open. In my car, even if I stand between the back door and the boot, the driver/passenger door sensors dont work. They work in an extremely close range only.

As an example if I am near the driver side and wife is on the passenger side, she cant open the door. Only the driver side door opens. And once the car is running and you are inside, the boot can open only if you manually unlock the boot from inside the car
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Old 8th December 2016, 18:50   #55
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Default Re: Disadvantages of keyless engine start systems

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Originally Posted by Nav-i-gator View Post
so this clears a lot of doubts then. one have to stand close to the door/boot to open THAT door/boot only. what remains of concern is the range, as in - if you are standing close to the driver side door, can the passenger side door be opened by pressing the request sensor? If the range is more than 5 ft, i guess there is a risk of someone opening the passenger side door and running away with valuables inside.
In my March 2016 manufactured XUV500, I have to be within 1 meter, if I wish to unlock the car by pressing the "unlock button" on the key fob (similar to pressing the button on the autocop remote). I have to be within a range of 0.7 meters if I wish to use the small black button above the door handle.

In response to some other post, for the boot, I have to stand near the boot, and only the boot unlocks. Rest of the doors remain locked.

I have a 2005 manufactured swift as well, with the conventional key system, and frankly, I prefer the keyless feature. One distinct advantage is that I cannot lock the car with the key inside. Has happened to my swift, where, during servicing the garage person shut the door, while the ignition was still on, and the Autocop automatically locked the door after a few seconds. A friend did this in his car while he parked on the roadside and ran out for a quick errand.
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Old 8th December 2016, 20:49   #56
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Default Re: Disadvantages of keyless engine start systems

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Originally Posted by sridhu View Post
The battery has to be reasonably fresh. What do you lose?
- You cant turn off the car when it is in motion. While normal humans do not need to do this, it takes away a major option if you have that 1-in-a-million chance of a brake failure while driving.

- You don't really have a convenient place to keep the key. It has to be in the car or in your pocket

I really wish manufacturers give me an option not to have this 'feature'.
Battery has nothing to do with Keyless systems. Battery has to be in good shape in all cars for them to crank.

In Brake fail situations if you turn off the car, that is more risky.
You should be using engine braking and downshifting process in that case.

What do you mean by convenient place?
All manufacturers have lower end variants which do not have this feature.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashis89 View Post
I agree with your first point about steering being locked if the car is not on. This thought crosses my mind several times and it's scary to say the least.

Let's say, I am slightly away from the car (even 3-4 ft away) and my friend wants to unlock the door, he can't. Either I walk nearer or I take the keys out to unlock. (We have faced this situation umpteen times and it becomes tough if your hands are full of grocery bags, etc).

I hate the routine when I have to go to the Aux power mode without starting the car. Almost everytime, we end up starting the car though we don't intend to. I miss the control of a physical key.
Steering does not lock when car is off and in ACC mode.
So in a situation when car dies but you don't push the button, steering will be in unlocked position.

3-4 feet away situation is similar to non-keyless, this is a safety feature.
If your hands are full of groceries this is the system to have.

If you press clutch and press the button your car will start.
You don't press clutch you enter ACC mode.

If you end up starting car every time you want to go to ACC mode , you should be removing your foot from clutch.
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Old 8th December 2016, 22:48   #57
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Default Re: Disadvantages of keyless engine start systems

I too had apprehensions about keyless entry and go before getting the Fiesta. But after living with the system for about 18 months now, I can certainly appreciate the much added convenience it offers. Read on!

Entry
Fiesta got 3 request sensors. On the driver door, passenger door and the boot. The key needs to be inside 3 or 4 feet for the proximity sensor to activate. And you can just open any door without touching the key which can remain in your pocket. Its very convenient. And if its the boot that you are opening, the doors stay locked.

Steering Lock
In the Fiesta the steering lock is electronic. And it unlocks only if the key is nearby/ inside the car AND the front door is opened. If you are to open any other door and get in with the key in pocket, the steering remains locked.

Starting
One touch of the start stop button brings up the ACC mode and if you depress the clutch fully and press the start stop again, the engine comes to life. Only if the key is inside the car i.e. If the key is outside, the start stop button doesn't take the request. On days when I use the Fiesta for office commute only, I don't even get to see the key. It stays in my laptop bag all throughout.

And since the key is so compact, it is also comfortable to keep in the pocket. And there is also no need for any flip key antics.

If you take the key out of the car when the engine is running, it sounds an alarm and also displays the message on the MID that the key is outside the vehicle. But if you are deliberate, the alarm will go off after a few seconds and come back on again when the driver side door is opened. One just cannot miss this.

Battery
If the battery inside the smart key is weak, you will have to open the smart key and use the physical key inside to open doors. And even with a very feeble charge, the Fiesta lets you switch the engine on using the start stop button while holding the smart key near the steering column where the traditional keyhole is. But before you get there, the MID will show warning that the battery in the smart key is weak and due for replacement.

Hacking
Yes, this could an issue. But for really smart thieves I don't think even a traditional key is such a barrier to gain access to the vehicle.

So, is smart key a must have? Certainly not! But would you like to have it in your car? Absolutely yes!

Last edited by deetjohn : 8th December 2016 at 22:50. Reason: Too many smilies.
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Old 9th December 2016, 00:42   #58
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Default Re: Disadvantages of keyless engine start systems

On my Mazda with keyless entry, I can pop the start stop cover and there is a keyhole in it. The keyfob also can be popped open, and a key comes out. I can use this keyhole and keyfob in the old fashioned way. I have had to do this couple times in the last 4 years.
  • Once when the keyfob was dropped in water. I did not want to risk shorting something in the keyfob. I pulled the key out and used it instead.
  • Once when the keyfob battery had gotten too weak to be recognized.
My wife loves the keyless entry lot more than me. She never liked to risk her manicured nails have a chip/nick while looking for the key in her purse. She would hand the purse over to the kids or me to look for it. She is my designated driver, and I hated looking for the key in her purse when I am in blissful buzz.

Tesla takes it up another notch. There is no start/stop, lock/unlock. Press the park button, and walk away. It locks on its own as you walk away.

Last edited by prasadee : 9th December 2016 at 01:06.
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Old 9th December 2016, 05:34   #59
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Default Re: Disadvantages of keyless engine start systems

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Originally Posted by arvind71181 View Post
But wouldn't this be analogous to leaving a non start stop car's engine running and stepping out of the car?
It depends on how one views it. When the owner/driver leaves the car with the key, the car must switch off. In case of a car with key-in ignition, it happens. Nobody can drive that car without the key. But, in case of a car with keyless entry, it does not happen. Anybody can drive off without the key. So, there is a security problem, I feel.
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Old 9th December 2016, 07:28   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prasadee View Post
On my Mazda with keyless entry, I can pop the start stop cover and there is a keyhole in it. The keyfob also can be popped open, and a key comes out. I can use this keyhole and keyfob in the old fashioned way. I have had to do this couple times in the last 4 years.
  • Once when the keyfob was dropped in water. I did not want to risk shorting something in the keyfob. I pulled the key out and used it instead.
  • Once when the keyfob battery had gotten too weak to be recognized.
My wife loves the keyless entry lot more than me. She never liked to risk her manicured nails have a chip/nick while looking for the key in her purse. She would hand the purse over to the kids or me to look for it. She is my designated driver, and I hated looking for the key in her purse when I am in blissful buzz.

Tesla takes it up another notch. There is no start/stop, lock/unlock. Press the park button, and walk away. It locks on its own as you walk away.

I guess even Mercedes have a similar design. You can open the button and then turn on the ignition in a similar fashion. Correct me if I am wrong.
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