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Old 9th December 2016, 09:17   #61
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Default Re: Disadvantages of keyless engine start systems

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Originally Posted by smartcat View Post
If you look hard enough, you will find dangers in ...

1) Central locking
2) Remote locking
3) Power windows
4) Music system
5) Air conditioner
6) Power steering


Forget these. If you look closely, stepping out of your house is dangerous.

If you walk- a dog can bite you or you can fall into a drain.
If you drive/ride- anybody can come and crash into you.

If you look at it, all systems don't have AI. You have to use common sense- an ability which (is supposed to) distinguish humans from other creatures.

Actually, remote locking is useful as a theft deterrent. A thief just has about a minute if the car starts the siren. He has to grab anything he can find and make a get away.
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Old 9th December 2016, 09:48   #62
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Default Re: Disadvantages of keyless engine start systems

A lot of people are saying that keyless entry is the system to have if your hands are full of grocery bags - I don't buy this. You still have to pull the door handle and open the door with your hands. You just don't have to pull out keys from your pocket, but nevertheless, you still have to use your hands.

Although, there are no apparent disadvantages of keyless system in MT cars. In my opinion, this thread is done with for the time being, unless someone comes out with one disadvantage.
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Old 9th December 2016, 09:58   #63
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Default Re: Disadvantages of keyless engine start systems

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Originally Posted by landcruiser123 View Post


Forget these. If you look closely, stepping out of your house is dangerous.

If you walk- a dog can bite you or you can fall into a drain.
If you drive/ride- anybody can come and crash into you.

If you look at it, all systems don't have AI. You have to use common sense- an ability which (is supposed to) distinguish humans from other creatures.

Actually, remote locking is useful as a theft deterrent. A thief just has about a minute if the car starts the siren. He has to grab anything he can find and make a get away.
Folks my original post was about the security hole this pointless, in my opinion, feature creates. This security hole is egregious as it is exploitable without being present or leaving a trace. It does not require a duplicate to be made. It only requires that you use your key in the normal way for a vulnerability to be exploited. The inability to prevent misuse is what makes this vulnerability worth taking note of.

You folks are talking about 'dangers'. I am not. I am talking about intrusion.
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Old 9th December 2016, 10:28   #64
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Default Re: Disadvantages of keyless engine start systems

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Originally Posted by sridhu View Post
Folks my original post was about the security hole this pointless, in my opinion, feature creates. This security hole is egregious as it is exploitable without being present or leaving a trace.
Even remote locking keys can be intercepted, they also have a security hole.Allow me some time to google and i can find it for you.
Your first post has few points where its evident you are keen on keyless entry systems for no reason, please reply back to my response earlier to your first quote if you feel there is something wrong i have mentioned.

It is hilarious to read posts by few others who are not using the system as designed or as mentioned in owners manual and hence finding shortcomings in it. I have replied to those posts earlier.My advice would be to read Owners manual before hating such systems.

To be frank, the only disadvantage i faced with this system was KEY FOB NOT DETECTED Error which comes once in a bluemoon. Other than that i could not find any Disadvantage in the system as such.

Last edited by silverado : 9th December 2016 at 10:31.
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Old 9th December 2016, 10:33   #65
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Default Re: Disadvantages of keyless engine start systems

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Originally Posted by Nav-i-gator View Post
A lot of people are saying that keyless entry is the system to have if your hands are full of grocery bags - I don't buy this. You still have to pull the door handle and open the door with your hands. You just don't have to pull out keys from your pocket, but nevertheless, you still have to use your hands.

Although, there are no apparent disadvantages of keyless system in MT cars. In my opinion, this thread is done with for the time being, unless someone comes out with one disadvantage.
With keyless entry, you need to use just 1 finger and not even your whole hand. In my Xcent, there have been times when my hands were occupied and I have used my knuckle to press the unlock sensor and then my index finger to pull open the door I am sure you cannot take out the key from your pocket, insert it and twist it with one finger!
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Old 9th December 2016, 10:47   #66
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Default Re: Disadvantages of keyless engine start systems

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Originally Posted by praveen789 View Post
With keyless entry, you need to use just 1 finger and not even your whole hand. In my Xcent, there have been times when my hands were occupied and I have used my knuckle to press the unlock sensor and then my index finger to pull open the door I am sure you cannot take out the key from your pocket, insert it and twist it with one finger!
With remote central locking, this can be done. Just feel the key button inside your pocket, press it from outside and door unlocks! more or less the same. If conditions (safety and distance) permits, one can even remotely open the doors while at the shop counter or from the place up-till where the shopping trolleys can be taken, lift the grocery bags and bingo. Even better than pushing the request sensor from close vicinity.
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Old 9th December 2016, 11:06   #67
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Default Re: Disadvantages of keyless engine start systems

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Originally Posted by silverado View Post
Battery has nothing to do with Keyless systems. Battery has to be in good shape in all cars for them to crank.

In Brake fail situations if you turn off the car, that is more risky.
You should be using engine braking and downshifting process in that case.

What do you mean by convenient place?
All manufacturers have lower end variants which do not have this feature.



Steering does not lock when car is off and in ACC mode.
So in a situation when car dies but you don't push the button, steering will be in unlocked position.

3-4 feet away situation is similar to non-keyless, this is a safety feature.
If your hands are full of groceries this is the system to have.

If you press clutch and press the button your car will start.
You don't press clutch you enter ACC mode.

If you end up starting car every time you want to go to ACC mode , you should be removing your foot from clutch.
My whole point was that something as critical as the steering is also electronically controlled (or rather, locked). I am not at all comfortable with that idea.

Again regarding the ACC mode, I am robbed of some control of the car. While I could do reach the mode by a single turn of key, now I follow certain steps to do it. And if I make a mistake, it takes me 5-6 button pushes. My friend who own the Baleno, accidentally started the car when all he wanted was to turn on the music system. Realizing his mistake, he switched off the car and went about pushing the button but forgot to lift his leg from the clutch. The car started again. Talk about getting familiar with the system over the time?


And like discussed, if my hands are so full of groceries/bags/kids/etc I still have to put them down to press the request button and pull open the door. There is no way you can escape this KESS. When I am in a similar situation with a non-KESS car, I remember to hold the keys in my hand before I hold other objects (key is too small a thing and I wear like a ring). Extend a finger over the button on the key and the car is unlocked from 15-20 mts away. I have never faced a problem which could have otherwise been solved with KESS.


Finally, I agree with what Mr. Sridhu said. Such features should be optional. Why should the manufacturer force me to go for a lower variant and lose out on other essential/safety features? In the end, the customer has to adjust, either with a variant with missing important features or with another variant with features which he/she doesn't want. Something which is useful to A, might be useless for B.

PS: My arguments would be different if I look from manufacturer's POV.
PPS: If I am not wrong, Mr. Sridhu owns a mid-variant Crysta where KESS is standard.

Last edited by ashis89 : 9th December 2016 at 11:12. Reason: Spell check
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Old 9th December 2016, 11:47   #68
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Originally Posted by ashis89 View Post

Again regarding the ACC mode, I am robbed of some control of the car. While I could do reach the mode by a single turn of key, now I follow certain steps to do it. And if I make a mistake, it takes me 5-6 button pushes. My friend who own the Baleno, accidentally started the car when all he wanted was to turn on the music system. Realizing his mistake, he switched off the car and went about pushing the button but forgot to lift his leg from the clutch. The car started again. Talk about getting familiar with the system over the time?


And like discussed, if my hands are so full of groceries/bags/kids/etc I still have to put them down to press the request button and pull open the door. There is no way you can escape this KESS. When I am in a similar situation with a non-KESS car, I remember to hold the keys in my hand before I hold other objects (key is too small a thing and I wear like a ring). Extend a finger over the button on the key and the car is unlocked from 15-20 mts away. I have never faced a problem which could have otherwise been solved with KESS.
The only advice for your friend with the Baleno is "Grow Up". These are arguments are not worth discussing. How would you open the door when your hands are so full of groceries?

With regards to the speculated steering lock, I never heard of any issues with such steering locks. There can be failures just as in any other electronic part present in your car. To be frank, I always thought my Cruze did not have a steering lock until this thread came up. Never in my 5 years of ownership I saw the steering in locked position.

There had been issues with steering actually getting locked while in motion in mechanical locking systems. This issue has been reported by even a bhpian who had a Gypsy which toppled after steering got locked while in motion due to faulty steering lock mechanism.

Last edited by Holyghost : 9th December 2016 at 12:02.
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Old 9th December 2016, 12:30   #69
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Default Re: Disadvantages of keyless engine start systems

Reminds me how the Government took a decision in the 80s weather the country needs a color television or not, most of the people who have opposed the keyless start-stop system, have rather very little experience using the system, its basically a user adoption issue, initially I too had issues while I started using an automatic from a manual. I have twice moved the car into park mode while it was at above 20kms/hour speed, for my stupidity I cannot blame the manufacturer. The keyless proximity based entry system is a great innovation, I cant believe we are having such a long and pointless discussion going on discussing the same points that what if the user forgets the key, how easily can the car be jacked etc. Let me give you some examples. My car and key are separated by 2-5 meters in my house, there are walls in between, now;

1. You cannot lock/ unlock the car despite the remote key being so close
2. I have a flip key, so I can use it to unlock the door, but that activates the burglar alarm if the battery in the sensor is out, else it detects the sensor and unlocks the door however you have to follow some procedure to start the car after you unlock without activating the immobilizer.
3. I have tried starting the car and it throws an error and I have to bring the key inside the cockpit to start the car again after deactivating/disarming the immobilizer
4. If this was a stupid system, a particular model would be stolen more than others.
5. Since its a non key based system I don't have to worry in the dark to find the slot.
6. I had an episode of bad fuel filled and the car died at 80kmph and I was able to safely pull the car to the curbside without any major drama
7. Those who have used it reasonably, know how difficult it is to go back to the old system and that poses an adoption nightmare to them.

The cars with conventional keys are more easy to get stolen as it requires a lower tech system to duplicate the key, I had an issue with a friends Maruthi 800, we were at India gate and he gave me the key to go run a quick errand, there was an identical car parked right next to his. I took that instead of his, when I was back there was a huge commotion, but the owner of the 800 was pleased that by the end of the day, his outing with his family didn't turn into a nightmare where they might have to book a cab back home. I sincerely feel this threads have turned into more of finding faults than list out genuine shortcomings, Mods can decide whether they want the show to continue or put a tomb stone on this and move forward.


Pramod

Last edited by pramodkumar : 9th December 2016 at 12:33.
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Old 9th December 2016, 12:46   #70
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Default Re: Disadvantages of keyless engine start systems

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Originally Posted by pramodkumar View Post
I sincerely feel this threads have turned into more of finding faults than list out genuine shortcomings, Mods can decide whether they want the show to continue or put a tomb stone on this and move forward.


Pramod
I second that. I think we have discussed a lot of "perceived" disadvantages which have been clarified by the owners/users of KESS system enabled cars. It can be fairly concluded that there are no apparent disadvantages (as the thread title mentions. There are no big advantages as well, but this thread is not for discussing that).

I don't see any disadvantage, I also believe there is not much left to discuss for now.
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Old 9th December 2016, 13:13   #71
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Default Re: Disadvantages of keyless engine start systems

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Originally Posted by Holyghost View Post
The only advice for your friend with the Baleno is "Grow Up". These are arguments are not worth discussing. How would you open the door when your hands are so full of groceries?

With regards to the speculated steering lock, I never heard of any issues with such steering locks. There can be failures just as in any other electronic part present in your car. To be frank, I always thought my Cruze did not have a steering lock until this thread came up. Never in my 5 years of ownership I saw the steering in locked position.

There had been issues with steering actually getting locked while in motion in mechanical locking systems. This issue has been reported by even a bhpian who had a Gypsy which toppled after steering got locked while in motion due to faulty steering lock mechanism.
Well sir, we are sufficiently grown up to know the advantages and disadvantages of a system. I must also tell you that my job requires thinking about the worst case scenarios that a system can face and providing solution. That's why my concern on some of the points. And my friend, who owns the car, is the QC head of his company.

While you have never faced a problem (I hope you never do), it doesn't rule out the possibility of the problem cropping up. If so, how does one handle the situation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nav-i-gator View Post
I second that. I think we have discussed a lot of "perceived" disadvantages which have been clarified by the owners/users of KESS system enabled cars. It can be fairly concluded that there are no apparent disadvantages (as the thread title mentions. There are no big advantages as well, but this thread is not for discussing that).

I don't see any disadvantage, I also believe there is not much left to discuss for now.
I have been saying this right from the beginning. And I have mentioned several times, it is I who doesn't find any utility of the KESS system. And I gave my reasons. For others, I am sure some of you will find it useful, some may not. Why the blame game?
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Old 9th December 2016, 13:50   #72
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Default Re: Disadvantages of keyless engine start systems

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Originally Posted by ashis89 View Post
1. I agree with your first point about steering being locked if the car is not on. This thought crosses my mind several times and it's scary to say the least. .
The car is expected not to move any way when it is not turned on. Even the brakes wont function normally if the Engine is off. So what is the deal with the steering alone.



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Originally Posted by ashis89 View Post
2. Since we usually keep the key in our pocket, if I walk off for a small errand the car will die. Eg: If I stop somewhere and get out of the car while other passengers are waiting, I want the car to be on and the AC running. But if I forget to leave the fob, the car dies..
Nope. The engine does not turn off in my case. It simply buzzes a chime to remind me of the key's absence.

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Originally Posted by ashis89 View Post
3. The most attractive feature is the access key on the door handles. Key the key in your pocket/bag, walk to the car, unlock with the access key, push start button and drive off. This means you don't have to take our the keys at any point. Let's say, I am slightly away from the car (even 3-4 ft away) and my friend wants to unlock the door, he can't. Either I walk nearer or I take the keys out to unlock. (We have faced this situation umpteen times and it becomes tough if your hands are full of grocery bags, etc)..


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Originally Posted by ashis89 View Post
4. I hate the routine when I have to go to the Aux power mode without starting the car. Almost everytime, we end up starting the car though we don't intend to. I miss the control of a physical key..
Press the start key without depressing the clutch. you should be in Accessories Power mode.

No Car would start without the clutch being depressed.

To Me, the FOB is a great boon as it saves the efforts of removing key from pocket, inserting it into the key slot on the door handle, turning it to unlock the door, keep it in hand while entering, reinsert it into the steering key slot, and then turn it to crank the engine. I am too lazy to do all these .

Last edited by King_pin09 : 9th December 2016 at 13:52.
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Old 9th December 2016, 13:50   #73
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Default Re: Disadvantages of keyless engine start systems

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Originally Posted by ashis89 View Post

I have been saying this right from the beginning. And I have mentioned several times, it is I who doesn't find any utility of the KESS system. And I gave my reasons. For others, I am sure some of you will find it useful, some may not. Why the blame game?
Agreed about the utility part. But the thread is about discussing disadvantages of KESS. We found none so far.

OT: Utility wise, there is no utility an iphone offer over, say, a oneplus or an Oppo. But it sells - as it is a "good to have". Same is with KESS. Not on the top of priority list, and not a deal breaker too.

On topic: I would rather buy a car with KESS than not buying it BECAUSE it HAS KESS. On the other hand, a good to have feature like KESS, if I am buying a car, is missing, I would perceive it as a missing feature as most of the top models of cars have it nowadays.
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Old 9th December 2016, 14:17   #74
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Default Re: Disadvantages of keyless engine start systems

Sorry for having to disagree with you. I have an elite i20 with key less entry and it has made my life a lot easier. My experience:

1) Having to never take the key out of my pocket is a lot convenient, imagine walking upto the car with luggage / groceries and trying to find and pull out the key from your jeans pocket. Also, people like me tend to forget / lose keys at shops etc. Never taking the key out prevents this.

2) I would not recommend turning the key of while the car is in motion, you will loose steering, brakes and steering will lock up. With keyless, I believe you can turn of the car if you press clutch even if the car is in motion.

3) i20 never turns of even if you leave the car and go outside with the car running. It just makes a key out alarm.

4) Having to press the clutch to start the car from standstill saves the starter motor and starting circuit from accidental cranks in gear. Also, there wont be no accidental double cranks while the engine is running, as the starter will not do that.

5) And the key cloning device, Hyundai keys work on NFC or some kind of near field RFID, and its very difficult to clone that. Because of this, even if the battery in the key dies, you can still start the car by touching the key to the start button and pressing the button.

6) It prevents accidental car locking with key inside. If the key is inside, the car will never let you lock the car from outside.
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Old 9th December 2016, 14:19   #75
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Default Re: Disadvantages of keyless engine start systems

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Originally Posted by ashis89 View Post
Well sir, we are sufficiently grown up to know the advantages and disadvantages of a system. I must also tell you that my job requires thinking about the worst case scenarios that a system can face and providing solution. That's why my concern on some of the points. And my friend, who owns the car, is the QC head of his company.
Most disadvantages that was mentioned was plain nit-picking and I felt it as a childish argument. Especially the one about groceries and switching on the ACC mode.

For the worst case scenario, you should be looking at the no of deaths that has occurred due to carbon monoxide poisoning when the KESS equipped car owners forgot to switch off the engine while exiting the car at their home parking. There were 19 reported deaths that has occurred in last few years and in all cases it was found that the car keys were inside the house but the cars were left idling overnight.
In one of the case, couples were found dead on the second floor of the house while the car was left idling in the ground floor overnight again with the car keys inside the house.

There were court cases against the Manufacturers for these deaths and newer cars now have a 30 minute time out for idling if the keys are outside the car. But I wonder how many new cars with KESS in India has that system implemented.

Quote:
While you have never faced a problem (I hope you never do), it doesn't rule out the possibility of the problem cropping up. If so, how does one handle the situation?
I am also curious about electronic steering lock. As I mentioned, I never saw the steering in locked mode when the car is parked and engine switched off irrespective of whether the key is inside or outside the car. Unlike manual key version where you frequently encounter a locked steering and the steering needs to be moved a couple of times before you can turn the key to unlock it.

Last edited by Holyghost : 9th December 2016 at 14:22.
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