Go Back   Team-BHP > Under the Hood > Technical Stuff


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 9th December 2016, 19:17   #106
Senior - BHPian
 
McLaren Rulez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Mysore
Posts: 2,367
Thanked: 459 Times
Default Re: Disadvantages of keyless engine start systems

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nav-i-gator View Post
What I am still confused about is - why can't the cars be designed to stop after some time/distance if the key is not inside? What would be the potential risks/thinking behind not programming it this way?
What if your car was at an intersection or a railway crossing when that moment happened?

Only two ways about it - either the car runs indefinitely without the key or the mechanism is sensitive enough to detect the difference between key inside the car and key just outside.
McLaren Rulez is online now   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 9th December 2016, 19:23   #107
BHPian
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 156
Thanked: 131 Times
Default Re: Disadvantages of keyless engine start systems

Strange, I just happened to stumble into this paper a couple days back. And this thread shows up

If you're not a details guy, you might just want to run though the implications sections.

sec16_paper_garcia.pdf

There are more articles that talk about hacking the canbus to turn off the lights, display spurious readings on the meters and what not. Not posting that to keep from digressing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sridhu View Post
I am not sure I am getting thru, though.
This might drive home the point.
isiv is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 9th December 2016, 19:27   #108
BHPian
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Gurgaon
Posts: 212
Thanked: 404 Times
Default Re: Disadvantages of keyless engine start systems

Quote:
Originally Posted by McLaren Rulez View Post
What if your car was at an intersection or a railway crossing when that moment happened?

Only two ways about it - either the car runs indefinitely without the key or the mechanism is sensitive enough to detect the difference between key inside the car and key just outside.
Well, that is exaggeration. That would be accident, same as if a car with a manual key stalls at a railway crossing and won't start for whatever reason. As I said earlier, an RFID tag can solve this problem easily. Since manufacturers are not using any method to stop the car when key is not in range, means there has to be some other reasons behind it. They know better.
Nav-i-gator is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 9th December 2016, 19:36   #109
BHPian
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 285
Thanked: 138 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sukhoi30 View Post
Okay, they can program the car to stop running if the key is not inside the car, but for that the sensor should keep checking the keyfob all the time. The keyfob should also relay its presence all the time which would drain its battery very soon.
In my Cruze, the sensor keeps checking the presence of the key continuously. Within secs the key is gone, the key not found error is displayed even when the vehicle is in motion. And i guess it will be similar in other cars as well. And my key battery lasted 4 years.

And RFID do not need line of sight and long range RFID based on UHF can scan the item from upto 15 metres without a battery on the receiver.
Holyghost is offline   (1) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 9th December 2016, 21:11   #110
Senior - BHPian
 
McLaren Rulez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Mysore
Posts: 2,367
Thanked: 459 Times
Default Re: Disadvantages of keyless engine start systems

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nav-i-gator View Post
Well, that is exaggeration. That would be accident, same as if a car with a manual key stalls at a railway crossing and won't start for whatever reason.
No, there's a difference. One is an error or failure, the other is the car stopping by design in an unexpected manner.

The lawyers will have a field day with the latter.

Last edited by McLaren Rulez : 9th December 2016 at 21:12.
McLaren Rulez is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 9th December 2016, 21:18   #111
BHPian
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Gurgaon
Posts: 212
Thanked: 404 Times
Default Re: Disadvantages of keyless engine start systems

Quote:
Originally Posted by McLaren Rulez View Post
No, there's a difference. One is an error or failure, the other is the car stopping by design in an unexpected manner.

The lawyers will have a field day with the latter.
No, if the car is designed to stop and it is clearly mentioned in the manual, it is an accident or negligence. Besides, what are the odds of that happening?

As I said, there should be some other reason, a more obvious one which we might be missing here.
Nav-i-gator is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 9th December 2016, 21:23   #112
Senior - BHPian
 
pramodkumar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Gods own country
Posts: 1,971
Thanked: 819 Times
Default Re: Disadvantages of keyless engine start systems

Quote:
Originally Posted by landcruiser123 View Post
With due respect, those lines of comparison are absurd.

Color TV v/s B & W TV is a world of difference, so is AT v/s MT.
You have misquoted what I have said, I am just trying to emphasise how the government was just taking decisions that the country was not ready for a color tv, but people who knew what it was were importing these. My comparison with AT and MT was to emphasise how it's a user adoption issue and once you get over it's actually a breaze.

Quote:
Originally Posted by landcruiser123 View Post
If I have to keyless entry and go systems on the same lines, it would having a padlock and manual crank to start the engine.
To each his own. No comments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by landcruiser123 View Post

With all due respect, you're entitled to your opinion. My experience with these systems is limited as I drive cars that are a decade old. On reading the experiences of various users on the thread, I think there's a consensus that these systems have some loopholes which can be exploited easily.
People who own or have extensively owned cars with these features are not the ones speaking against it, it's neither overzealous passion which guides what they say, but I have felt quite the opposite in what people opposing it are saying. There are no major loopholes like few mention here, the system is as safe as a system can be. It's tried and tested, your car will only start if the key is very close to it, so chances of leaving without the key very slim. Now isn't it wise to listen to what people with experience have to say, rather than trusting people who don't have much experience?

Pramod
pramodkumar is offline   (2) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 9th December 2016, 21:26   #113
Senior - BHPian
 
McLaren Rulez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Mysore
Posts: 2,367
Thanked: 459 Times
Default Re: Disadvantages of keyless engine start systems

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nav-i-gator View Post
No, if the car is designed to stop and it is clearly mentioned in the manual, it is an accident or negligence. Besides, what are the odds of that happening?

As I said, there should be some other reason, a more obvious one which we might be missing here.
I've told you the reason. Any lawyer will agree - it is not about the odds of something happening, it is about jeopardizing lives through bad design.

Feel free to continue searching for different reasons.
McLaren Rulez is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 9th December 2016, 21:56   #114
BHPian
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Coimbatore
Posts: 32
Thanked: 44 Times
Default Re: Disadvantages of keyless engine start systems

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashis89 View Post
I hate the routine when I have to go to the Aux power mode without starting the car. Almost everytime, we end up starting the car though we don't intend to. I miss the control of a physical key
Hi ashis89, you might want to try this - keep the keyfob with you and press the start/stop button without pressing the clutch (if the car is a manual transmission one) or the brake, if the car is an auto transmission one.

This should allow you to put the car in Accessories mode without turning on the engine. Worked this way on my earlier City VX AT and works the same way in my Superb AT.

Hope this helps.
krishsreedharan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th December 2016, 22:33   #115
BHPian
 
aboveallkaran's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Nagpur
Posts: 50
Thanked: 6 Times
Default Re: Disadvantages of keyless engine start systems

I drive a sonata transform which is equipped with keyless ignition as well as the key can be inserted in the key slot. I always prefer using the key to start the engine and drive.
aboveallkaran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th December 2016, 00:55   #116
BHPian
 
avdhesh15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 523
Thanked: 528 Times
Default Re: Disadvantages of keyless engine start systems

Quote:
Originally Posted by kutoos View Post
How did you manage to start & dive to JWM if the car keys were at home? Just curious as i believe that you need teh key fob with you to start the car?
I was returning from office with my driver driving. Plan was to pick the family and self drive. Driver had the key and he got off. Neither of us realised this fact as we were busy in getting my office stuff out and my family in. I simply started driving! Also, this is my dad's car ( both his cars, Altis and Ciaz have keyless start ) which I rarely use, so I didn't realise it. Both my cars, City and DZire don't have this feature.

Rest what happened is as per Sukhoi post below :
Quote:
Originally Posted by sukhoi30 View Post
You can drive the car without a key until the car is shutdown or the fuel runs out.
avdhesh15 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th December 2016, 00:57   #117
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Trivandrum
Posts: 19
Thanked: 21 Times
Default Re: Disadvantages of keyless engine start systems

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashtrix View Post
Its unlikely that key fob battery will die out so soon. Nexa guy told me that my S cross key fob battery can start the engine 25000 times. So even if I start my car 10 times a day I dont have to worry for 6-7 years and after that I will have the spare key for another 6-7 years.
Advice given by my Hyundai dealer - key fob battery will die if left unused. So swap the keys every month or so to get maximum life out of them. Fact or not, I have been following this religiously for past 10 months of ownership.
IndieGooner is online now   (2) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 10th December 2016, 01:07   #118
BHPian
 
prasadee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: San Diego
Posts: 550
Thanked: 195 Times
Default Re: Disadvantages of keyless engine start systems

Quote:
Originally Posted by sukhoi30 View Post
Similarly, with the smart key system, the keyfob generates a rolling code. When you press the door open knob or the keyfob button to unlock the car, the computer in the car too generates a rolling code. If the key belongs to your car, then the codes match and the door is opened. When you start the car, again the codes are matched and the proximity sensor checks the presence of the key inside the car before starting the engine. The proximity sensor is a different thing and checks presence of key inside the car when you lock/unlock the car. It is used only to ensure that the car doesn't get locked with the key inside the car. The car doesn't have to have the key inside the car to drive the vehicle. Okay, they can program the car to stop running if the key is not inside the car, but for that the sensor should keep checking the keyfob all the time. The keyfob should also relay its presence all the time which would drain its battery very soon.
Most cars I know - have continuous checks like a watchdog timer or a heartbeat. When the key is removed from the car (even while engine is on), there is continuous beeping in the car for a while. Some cars display text in Red "Key not detected in the car". In my Mazda a key light shows up in red on the dash. Of course one can choose to ignore all the warnings - drive away, turn off the engine and get stuck.

I also have a Prius, which has no concept of Engine being on. It is so quiet when stopped, that it is very normal to leave the car in "On/Started" position, with the key in the pocket/purse. That makes it a necessary feature.

Last edited by prasadee : 10th December 2016 at 01:11.
prasadee is offline   (2) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 10th December 2016, 06:17   #119
BHPian
 
rosh_aveo1.4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Cochin, Kerala
Posts: 526
Thanked: 283 Times
Default Re: Disadvantages of keyless engine start systems

I have a Sunny XV model and first thought this keyless thing is a waste and risky. But it's been 3 years and I would say it's really good. No more fishing for the key from my pockets and pressing the unlock button. Just go there and press either of the door to unlock. And same for the boot whereby I don't have to open it with a key or remote control or pull the lever from the driver door....just simply walkover and press the button on the boot.
There was this incident sometime back where I went for a beach trip with my friends and I left the electronic key in my bag since I thought it may get lost. Now when I'm back....I opened the boot as usual by that button...put my bag in the boot and close the boot lid. Whatever happens, the damn thing won't close. I first thought it was a lock mechanism issue but then realised that I left the key in the boot and it refuses to lock until I take it out from the boot. Now that's really something. If that wasn't there..I would have locked myself out. Not sure if your conventional key does this.
I do have 3 other cars at home that use the normal key system and never got confused and sometimes yes...I wish they were keyless too.

Last edited by rosh_aveo1.4 : 10th December 2016 at 06:22.
rosh_aveo1.4 is offline   (2) Thanks Reply With Quote
Old 10th December 2016, 15:44   #120
BHPian
 
noo.b's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Gurgaon
Posts: 58
Thanked: 57 Times
Default Re: Disadvantages of keyless engine start systems

I can completely identify with this thread as I recently moved from a Punto to a Baleno. There sure are some advantages of the keyless entry and go system that I have found useful on a few occasions like being able to unlock the car with my hands full and not having to look for the key as long as I know its with me somewhere.

As I have moved from a torquey diesel to a petrol I occasionally stall the car while slowing down to cross these mini speed bumps. Getting it going instantly becomes an issue as the start / stop button needs you to press the brakes and the clutch simultaneously to start it back on, braking with lots of cars tailing you invites a lot of honks. I may be doing it wrong, but in situations like such I would have preferred to use a traditional key instead of the gimmicky start stop button.

Also on a couple occasions when I and my brother exchanged driving duties and make the occasional stop I end up walking away with the key fob in my pocket and the car gets stalled. I guess its just a matter of getting used to it, however it definitely has caused some minor issues. Ideally I would have liked the convenience of keyless entry with the possibility of a key to get the car to go.
noo.b is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Petes box - Disadvantages? Vishesh Technical Stuff 145 21st January 2014 23:02
Renault Scala (keyless go) : Just dies, and refuses to start hawrie Technical Stuff 23 30th October 2013 07:34
Fitting Gas - Advantages & Disadvantages Surprise Modifications & Accessories 43 20th August 2009 10:10
Superbike Security Systems - Disc Lock / Chain Lock / Alarm Systems gsferrari Superbikes & Imports 3 3rd July 2009 01:45
Double Clutching... how many of us do this? any disadvantages? DaPilot Technical Stuff 2 13th May 2006 00:39


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 16:24.

Copyright 2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks