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Old 8th December 2016, 10:12   #1
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Default Disadvantages of keyless engine start systems

I have always hated keyless systems that seem all the vogue nowadays. They solve no major problem and add a few serious ones in the bargain. A true case of a 'useless feature'.

Consider:

Without a keyless system you need to insert the key into a slot, free the wheel & turn the key a quarter turn to start the car. That sequence, if you are a sloth bear, will take all of 2 seconds.

What do you have now, with the keyless system? You get in, press the clutch fully (never mind that the gear is in neutral) and press the button. If you have taken care to ensure that the clutch is fully pressed, (not even 0.5 mm away from the full press) the car starts. The battery has to be reasonably fresh. This sequence will shave off an astounding 0.5 seconds from the earlier routine. So that is a gain. Certainly

What do you lose?
- You cant turn off the car when it is in motion. While normal humans do not need to do this, it takes away a major option if you have that 1-in-a-million chance of a brake failure while driving.

- You don't really have a convenient place to keep the key. It has to be in the car or in your pocket

- The downside to the above is that you cant take your spare key along. Cant leave in the car, in a bag, if you, for example, stop for a quick snack. The car wont lock saying 'key is inside the car'. At least my key does not have an off switch and hence it is a pain.

- You can, technically, leave the key behind and drive away the car

- Finally, the most important, you have a serious security issue. Now, look at this gadget . That is right, anybody with this device in the vicinity can easily open your car & drive it away.

How it works:

Name:  Car jackin.jpg
Views: 19629
Size:  55.0 KB

This is not a random blog from from Johnny on the net. It is by the National Insurance Crime Bureau (NICB), a nonprofit insurance industry organization.

Even if that does not happen, it opens the door to someone being able to hack your car remotely. Dont believe me? Look at these posts.

Hacking a jeep

Take over car when it is in motion



I really wish manufacturers give me an option not to have this 'feature'.

What do you feel?

Last edited by GTO : 8th December 2016 at 12:35. Reason: Spacing :). Thanks for sharing!
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Old 8th December 2016, 10:34   #2
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Default re: Disadvantages of keyless engine start systems

I completely agree with all your points. I get to experience the keyless experience at frequent intervals in my friend's Baleno (over the past 8 months and 10k kms) and I must say, the experience has never been good. I will share my experience below:

1. I agree with your first point about steering being locked if the car is not on. This thought crosses my mind several times and it's scary to say the least.

2. Since we usually keep the key in our pocket, if I walk off for a small errand the car will die. Eg: If I stop somewhere and get out of the car while other passengers are waiting, I want the car to be on and the AC running. But if I forget to leave the fob, the car dies.

3. The most attractive feature is the access key on the door handles. Key the key in your pocket/bag, walk to the car, unlock with the access key, push start button and drive off. This means you don't have to take our the keys at any point. Let's say, I am slightly away from the car (even 3-4 ft away) and my friend wants to unlock the door, he can't. Either I walk nearer or I take the keys out to unlock. (We have faced this situation umpteen times and it becomes tough if your hands are full of grocery bags, etc).

4. I hate the routine when I have to go to the Aux power mode without starting the car. Almost everytime, we end up starting the car though we don't intend to. I miss the control of a physical key.

Overall, given an option, I would choose not to have it in my next car. It's presence can almost be a deal breaker for me.
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Old 8th December 2016, 10:39   #3
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Default re: Disadvantages of keyless engine start systems

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashis89 View Post

2. Since we usually keep the key in our pocket, if I walk off for a small errand the car will die. Eg: If I stop somewhere and get out of the car while other passengers are waiting, I want the car to be on and the AC running. But if I forget to leave the fob, the car dies.
If the car is on, with the AC on and passengers inside, and you get out for an errand with the key in your pocket, the car will not shut down.

Have done this numerous times, the moment you leave the car, it gives a long beep for a while and then remains on.

I keep the key fob in my pockets at all times, even when im driving the car, so as to never forget it inside the car when im getting off.

Source : Own the elite i20 with keyless go.
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Old 8th December 2016, 10:41   #4
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Default re: Disadvantages of keyless engine start systems

I quite agree that keyless systems are surely not a 'must have.'

The only real convenience is when your a lady (like my mom) and it'll take you five whole minutes to search for the key in the blackhole a.k.a handbag. As long as your bag is with you, you can enter and drive the car.

I drive 2 10 year old cars at home and a 2 year old bike. All three vehicles require the key to be inserted and turned.

I feel like a fool when I search for the key slot in my friends cars.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sridhu View Post

Without a keyless system you need to insert the key into a slot, free the wheel & turn the key a quarter turn to start the car. That sequence, if you are a sloth bear, will take all of 2 seconds.
I still tell this to people. How much effort does it really take to insert a key and turn it?

It's not as much effort to manually crank the engine.

Quote:
The downside to the above is that you cant take your spare key along.
Don't the cars come with an old fashioned key with a transponder?

Quote:
You can, technically, leave the key behind and drive away the car
I think the car needs to have they key inside to keep running.
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Old 8th December 2016, 10:42   #5
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Default re: Disadvantages of keyless engine start systems

Quote:
Originally Posted by sridhu View Post
I have always hated keyless systems that seem all the vogue nowadays. They solve no major problem and add a few serious ones in the bargain. A true case of a 'useless feature'.
Keyless entry has been a boon, imagine you have 2 polybags filled with groceries in both your hands, what will you do if you have to unlock the car? Keep the bag down? Lets replace the bags with a baby and a toddler now what would you prefer to do?

My car allows me a Keyless entry, its very convenient for me to lock and unlock the car without taking the key out of my office laptop bag. I could have a spare key in the car without the battery in it and the battery can be kept in a separate cubby hole. I usually carry the spare key only when I am travelling long distances and I give this key to my wife who always carries her hand bag.

Now regarding the gadgets to duplicate the car key hob signal. No security device in this world is 100% secure, all that each additional level of security does is stall the robber further, so that the owner gets some additional reaction time and maybe some moves like calling the cops on the robber can be done if the ongoing robbery attempt goes beyond a certain time window. Now if someone does duplicate the Keyfob, you can always have a remote immobilizer installed to disable the car and you can set alerts to your cellphone, if the chap still manages to steal your car then tough luck, there is always insurance to pay off the damages.

I don't understand why do totally dismiss the idea of the keyless entry altogether, it was a well engineered and well developed idea which made into production, now a days more and more manufacturers are offering these features in their base model cars, since its not just cool to have a start - stop button, but it also adds to convenience.

I don't think a sloth bear will be happy handling a key without an opposable thumb .

Pramod

Last edited by SDP : 8th December 2016 at 12:32. Reason: Let's keep the discussion civil :). Deleted the first line
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Old 8th December 2016, 10:47   #6
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Default re: Disadvantages of keyless engine start systems

Quote:
Originally Posted by toiingg View Post
If the car is on, with the AC on and passengers inside, and you get out for an errand with the key in your pocket, the car will not shut down.

Have done this numerous times, the moment you leave the car, it gives a long beep for a while and then remains on.

Source : Own the elite i20 with keyless go.
If the car stays on even when you walk away with the key, it is safety concern as someone can drive away. But IIRC, it gives warning and the car dies after not detected for some time (in Baleno). I need to double check as I run back with the key each time the car starts giving the beep warnings.
Quote:
Originally Posted by landcruiser123 View Post
I quite agree that keyless systems are surely not a 'must have.'

I think the car needs to have they key inside to keep running.
+1 to that.
I have always felt this feature to be a gimmick rather than having much utility.
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Old 8th December 2016, 10:49   #7
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Default re: Disadvantages of keyless engine start systems

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashis89 View Post
If the car stays on even when you walk away with the key, it is safety concern as someone can drive away. But IIRC, it gives warning and the car dies after not detected for some time (in Baleno). I need to double check as I run back with the key each time the car starts giving the beep warnings.
Its true that the car can be driven off, but why will you leave your car on without anyone in it? Would a system with Key prevent the car be driven away if its running and left unlocked?

Pramod
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Old 8th December 2016, 10:55   #8
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Default re: Disadvantages of keyless engine start systems

Quote:
Originally Posted by pramodkumar View Post
Keyless entry has been a boon, imagine you have 2 polybags filled with groceries in both your hands, what will you do if you have to unlock the car? Keep the bag down? Lets replace the bags with a baby and a toddler now what would you prefer to do?
I do have a keyless starting system on my car.

I think you are also confusing a keyless entry system with a keyless starting system.

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion. If it is useful for you, more power to you!

Quote:
Originally Posted by pramodkumar View Post
I don't think a sloth bear will be happy handling a key without an opposable thumb .

Pramod

Last edited by SDP : 8th December 2016 at 12:34. Reason: Quoted post edited and therefore part of your response.
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Old 8th December 2016, 10:56   #9
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Default re: Disadvantages of keyless engine start systems

Quote:
Originally Posted by pramodkumar View Post
Its true that the car can be driven off, but why will you leave your car on without anyone in it? Would a system with Key prevent the car be driven away if its running and left unlocked?

Pramod
Then why would the car warn me to get the key fob into the car? Let me tell you a funny incident. I went to drop my friend at the airport, in his car. He had the key in his pocket while I was driving. We reached, he got out, started walking and the car started missing its owner immediately. This was the first time I experienced the warning message of the missing fob and took a few seconds to realize the error. Then I got out and shouted his name for the key, much to the amusement of the bystanders and got the fob back. This situation is not possible in my car which has keys.
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Old 8th December 2016, 10:57   #10
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Default re: Disadvantages of keyless engine start systems

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashis89 View Post
If the car stays on even when you walk away with the key, it is safety concern as someone can drive away. But IIRC, it gives warning and the car dies after not detected for some time (in Baleno). I need to double check as I run back with the key each time the car starts giving the beep warnings.
In my Crysta you can walk away without switching off & the car will keep running. In fact, you can even drive the car without the key in the car.

The security implications are similar to leaving a car with key running, IMO. It does not pose any new threat.
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Old 8th December 2016, 10:59   #11
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Default re: Disadvantages of keyless engine start systems

Quote:
Originally Posted by pramodkumar View Post
I have nothing but to laugh at what you have written, this post if filled with lack of knowledge and a bit of sour grapes syndrome. Keyless entry has been a boon, imagine you have 2 polybags filled with groceries in both your hands, what will you do if you have to unlock the car? Keep the bag down? Lets replace the bags with a baby and a toddler now what would you prefer to do?
One still have to pull the door handle and open the door with hands, isn't it? Unless the car comes with auto opening doors as well. It is no doubt a good to have feature, but not in the top priority list for me. I would anyday prefer a rear defogger with wash and wipe over keyless entry, for example (this is really important in North India), or fog lamps.
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Old 8th December 2016, 11:02   #12
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Default re: Disadvantages of keyless engine start systems

Quote:
Originally Posted by sridhu View Post
What do you lose?
- 1)You cant turn off the car when it is in motion. While normal humans do not need to do this, it takes away a major option if you have that 1-in-a-million chance of a brake failure while driving.
- 2)You dont really have a convenient place to keep the key. It has to be in the car or in your pocket
- 3)The downside to the above is that you cant take your spare key along. Cant leave in the car, in a bag, if you, for example, stop for a quick snack. The car wont lock saying 'key is inside the car'. At least my key does not have an off switch and hence it is a pain.
- 4)You can, technically, leave the key behind and drive away the car
- 5)Finally, the most important, you have a serious security issue. Now, look at this gadget . That is right, anybody with this device in the vicinity can easily open your car & drive it away.
1)The vehicle can definitely be shut down even if it is in motion. Vehicle manufacturers cannot ignore an emergency situation where the engine would need to be shut down. On most keyless systems you just need to keep the start stop button pressed, or press it twice or thrice to shut the engine down.

2)The convenience is leaving the key in your pocket or in your bag. Rather its meant to be. I personally prefer to insert the key into a slot and turn it to start, but I'm not against keyless systems.

3)Why would you take your spare key along, and then leave it inside the car? Beats me. If you do have to take your spare key along, it will most likely be so you don't get locked out of your car. In which case it would be best to keep it on you at all times.

4)Yes this is probably the only downside I can think of. And this does happen often with people. Happened with me and a friend, when we went for a spin in his Aventador. Not that the car dies, but if you put off the engine it cannot be started again.

5)These devices work with any car which is remotely locked and unlocked too. So nothing special about keyless entry as far as I know. Same security risks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashis89 View Post
I completely agree with all your points. I get to experience the keyless experience at frequent intervals in my friend's Baleno (over the past 8 months and 10k kms) and I must say, the experience has never been good. I will share my experience below:

1. I agree with your first point about steering being locked if the car is not on. This thought crosses my mind several times and it's scary to say the least.

2. Since we usually keep the key in our pocket, if I walk off for a small errand the car will die. Eg: If I stop somewhere and get out of the car while other passengers are waiting, I want the car to be on and the AC running. But if I forget to leave the fob, the car dies.

3. The most attractive feature is the access key on the door handles. Key the key in your pocket/bag, walk to the car, unlock with the access key, push start button and drive off. This means you don't have to take our the keys at any point. Let's say, I am slightly away from the car (even 3-4 ft away) and my friend wants to unlock the door, he can't. Either I walk nearer or I take the keys out to unlock. (We have faced this situation umpteen times and it becomes tough if your hands are full of grocery bags, etc).

4. I hate the routine when I have to go to the Aux power mode without starting the car. Almost everytime, we end up starting the car though we don't intend to. I miss the control of a physical key.

Overall, given an option, I would choose not to have it in my next car. It's presence can almost be a deal breaker for me.
1)What do you mean? As soon as the power is turned on the steering will lock. Instead of having to move the steering so the key can be turned, this issue is eliminated in a keyless start vehicle.

2)Sorry but you are misinformed. No car will die if the key is removed from the vehicle. It may warn about the key not being detected, but the engine never goes off on its own.

3)Silly argument. Without keyless entry, you still have to remove the key from your pocket to unlock the door in case a friend wants to enter. In this car, even if your hands are full you can just move close to the vehicle. This is an advantage.

4)Just don't keep your foot on the brake, and the engine wont start and it will be in aux power mode every time. If you keep your foot on the brake the engine will start.


Sorry guys, I find these points really silly. I'm not a fan of keyless go, and prefer inserting a key and turning it or pressing a start button. But I don't think most of these points are valid.
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Old 8th December 2016, 11:02   #13
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Default re: Disadvantages of keyless engine start systems

Quote:
Originally Posted by sridhu View Post
I think you are also confusing a keyless entry system with a keyless starting system.
I am not confused, especially since you have mentioned about the pressing the clutch ritual for starting the car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashis89 View Post
Then why would the car warn me to get the key fob into the car? Let me tell you a funny incident. I went to drop my friend at the airport, in his car. He had the key in his pocket while I was driving. We reached, he got out, started walking and the car started missing its owner immediately. This was the first time I experienced the warning message of the missing fob and took a few seconds to realize the error. Then I got out and shouted his name for the key, much to the amusement of the bystanders and got the fob back. This situation is not possible in my car which has keys.
I drive a cruze, I can be driven off without a key in it, however it will keep flashing the error 91 on the screen, I have driven close to 200 Kms when the battery in the keyfob died and it worked perfectly till I got the new battery, once you kill the engine you cannot start the car.

Now based on the above scenario where the battery in the fob can die in the middle of the journey, will the car engine die? It wont, but it will keep flashing the error message/beep so that you replace the battery or bring back the keyfob to the car.

pramod
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Old 8th December 2016, 11:23   #14
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Default re: Disadvantages of keyless engine start systems

Get ready for the self-driving cars

Jokes apart I find keyless system extremely convenient, except during the initial days when I used to forget handing the key over to valet.

Shutting off the engine while in motion is not advisable - better to put in neutral so that power is available for steering and braking. Also most cars cut off fuel if brakes are applied (even if the A-pedal is pressed).
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Old 8th December 2016, 11:27   #15
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Default re: Disadvantages of keyless engine start systems

If you look hard enough, you will find dangers in pretty much all the unimportant electricals, mechanicals and electronics in your car. Examples:

1) Central locking (Dangerous in case of fire or car sinking in water)
2) Remote locking (You are more likely to forget to lock your car)
3) Power windows (Fingers/neck can get stuck, dangerous in case of fire or car sinking in water)
4) Music system (Changing volume/tracks can distract the driver, and hence dangerous)
5) Air conditioner (Keeping the car in internal circulation mode on long drives can result in a drowsy driver)
6) Power steering (one in a million probability of power steering pump failure while you are making a critical turn in the Himalayas)
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