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Old 2nd April 2017, 18:59   #61
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Default Re: VW 2.0 TDI: Different Power & Torque outputs - How & why?

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Originally Posted by AMG Power View Post
It isn't counter intuitive when you understand its application. The 170 Bhp only did duty in the Octavia VRS. So if you notice, this is a close ratio gear box compared to the other one to improve performance in the VRS and attain a higher top speed. Hope this helps.
Good observation. If you could provide the source (if in public domain), it will help for other searches also. Could you also compare and provide the data for 140PS 6-speed DSG vs 170 6-speed DSG in the Octy mk2 vRS? However, shorter close ratio box won't help with better or equal FE figures under standard test-cycles, rather could negatively impact it (as this was our point of discussion primarily, than performance).

Only Seat seem to provide info on gear ratios explicitly in their product sales catalogues/brochures. Looking up ratios of Seat Leon variants (like their Seat Ateca), gear ratios between similar transmission types in 150PS/184PS diesel again is identical. Brochure attached. So would like to know if the vRS or maybe a GTD are the only exceptions or not.

P.S: Does the Octy Mk2 vRS 2.0TDI achieve its top speed in 5th cog or the 6th? With the two gear ratios mentioned for 140PS vs 170PS variants, top speed of odd 232 kmph is achieved at approx 4580(5th)/3830(6th) rpm and 5134(5th)/4297(6th) rpm respectively.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf 2017 Seat Leon brochure.pdf (5.40 MB, 26 views)

Last edited by avinash_clt : 2nd April 2017 at 19:24. Reason: Added info
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Old 2nd April 2017, 20:52   #62
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Default Re: VW 2.0 TDI: Different Power & Torque outputs - How & why?

@avinash and others,
Could you see whether VW considers valve seats to be child parts, and are sold as such, or does one have to buy/ change the whole head assy.

Regards
Sutripta
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Old 2nd April 2017, 21:32   #63
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Default Re: VW 2.0 TDI: Different Power & Torque outputs - How & why?

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Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
@avinash and others,
Could you see whether VW considers valve seats to be child parts, and are sold as such, or does one have to buy/ change the whole head assy.

Regards
Sutripta
I checked for the same set of engine codes that I had tabulated earlier(i.e EA189 series) and couldn't find child part number for valve seats. It seems only the cylinder head assembly is an orderable part.

Cylinder head - Parts diagram
Camshaft / Valves - Parts diagram
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Old 2nd April 2017, 21:41   #64
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Default Re: VW 2.0 TDI: Different Power & Torque outputs - How & why?

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Originally Posted by avinash_clt View Post
Graag gedaan.

P.S: I am staying odd 100-150 south (I presume) of your location and hope you are enjoying the sun. Nice to meet you here in this thread.
Ah, I see you are fluent in Dutch! Very nice weather today. My wife and I just spend a few hours cycling to Wassenaar and back. And of course, a little tour in my classic Mercedes.

What brings you to Eindhoven?

Jeroen
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Old 3rd April 2017, 01:14   #65
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Default Re: VW 2.0 TDI: Different Power & Torque outputs - How & why?

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Ah, I see you are fluent in Dutch! Very nice weather today. My wife and I just spend a few hours cycling to Wassenaar and back. And of course, a little tour in my classic Mercedes.

What brings you to Eindhoven?
Far from being fluent, just the basics for everyday life . I was pursuing my masters at TU/e till recently.
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Old 3rd April 2017, 06:55   #66
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Default Re: VW 2.0 TDI: Different Power & Torque outputs - How & why?

Quote:
Originally Posted by avinash_clt View Post
Good observation. If you could provide the source (if in public domain), it will help for other searches also. Could you also compare and provide the data for 140PS 6-speed DSG vs 170 6-speed DSG in the Octy mk2 vRS?
In the case of 140PS 6-speed DSG and the 170PS 6-speed DSG in the Octy mk2 vRS the ratios were the same. Have attached pics of the same showing the production run with the difference in identification - ratios remain the same. My source isn't in the public domain but I would have thought similar would have been available.

Quote:
Originally Posted by avinash_clt View Post
However, shorter close ratio box won't help with better or equal FE figures
True, however customers of a vRS wouldn't have FE as a major consideration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by avinash_clt View Post
P.S: Does the Octy Mk2 vRS 2.0TDI achieve its top speed in 5th cog or the 6th?
The Octy mk2 2.0 TDI vRS achieves its top speed in 6th gear.
Attached Thumbnails
VW 2.0 TDI: Different Power & Torque outputs - How & why?-screen-shot-20170403-6.50.23-am.png  

VW 2.0 TDI: Different Power & Torque outputs - How & why?-screen-shot-20170403-6.24.19-am.png  

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Old 5th April 2017, 17:39   #67
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Default Re: VW 2.0 TDI: Different Power & Torque outputs - How & why?

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Originally Posted by AMG Power View Post
In the case of 140PS 6-speed DSG and the 170PS 6-speed DSG in the Octy mk2 vRS the ratios were the same.
Thank you, this was the observation between other cars also which I could check and get information on.

Quote:
My source isn't in the public domain but I would have thought similar would have been available.
Sadly they aren't, not in the owner's manual nor in the product brochures. Some models/VAG brands have them like the Seat brochures I pasted screenshots from, most of them don't. I presume these are from workshop manual for specific models?

Quote:
however customers of a vRS wouldn't have FE as a major consideration.
True to an extent. Still a fairly efficient motor in the vRS TDI (upwards for 18kmpl averages easily in EU), and hence their choice over vRS 2.0L TSI or even 1.8TSI for many.


So the MT 6-speed in 170PS vRS Octy Mk2 TDI has shorter (than 110PS/140PS variants) close ratio gear box for better acceleration . Coming back to the question having similar FE figures for various tunes of 2.0 TDI under standard test cycles: Do we have information on higher output engines being paired with taller gear ratios (same car, similar transmission type) as the reason for the same?
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Old 6th April 2017, 01:32   #68
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Default Re: VW 2.0 TDI: Different Power & Torque outputs - How & why?

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Originally Posted by smartcat View Post

Questions :

1) How different are the engine internals in its different iterations? Is it the same exact engine, but with different ECU or fuel/air mixture settings? Or is it possible that the engine in Rs. 70 Lakhs Audi A6 is packed with (invisible) technology when compared to its twin in Rs. 25 Lakh VW Jetta?
I asked this question to a dear friend, Niranjan Todkari, who happens to be an expert on VW engines and is involved in tuning them (and also others brands).
He gave a comprehensive reply and I quote

Quote:
Lets first sort the engines into two major groups, the EA189 & EA288 engine series.

EA189

Yeti 110PS (CLCA)
Yeti 140PS (CLCB)
Jetta 140PS (CLCB)
Q3 140PS (??)
Q3 177PS (CLLB)
Q5 177PS (CMGB)

The 140PS engines on Yeti & Jetta are exactly identical to the 110PS engines, only difference being the turbo which is slightly smaller on the 110PS variants. Other difference where they are actually saving money is on the Gearbox where the 110PS variants get a 5-speed box with the clutch rated for only 250Nm of torque opposed to the higher capacity 6-speed box which 140PS variants get.

Coming to the Q3 with 140PS, this engine is exactly identical to the 140PS engines on Jetta & Yeti on mechanicals with the only difference being the presence of DPF on this one.

Then we come to the 177PS Q3 & Q5 engines. These engines are again mechanically identical to the ones above, but with even bigger turbos. Also expect some part variations in the Q5 version where it is mounted longitudinally.


EA288

Octavia 143PS (CRVC)
A3 143PS (CRVC)
A4 190PS (??)
A6 190PS (??)

Here the 143PS versions are exactly identical but totally different from the EA189 series engines.
In case of the 190PS engines, I donít have the exact data of what all components are different but ignoring the transverse and longitudinal mounting, its mainly the turbo which is different.
In most cases on EA288, the higher output variants also have totally different heads as opposed to EA189 where the internals never changed. But canít confirm for this exact 190PS engine as I donít have the complete data for it.
I hope this helps
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Old 6th April 2017, 09:38   #69
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Default Re: VW 2.0 TDI: Different Power & Torque outputs - How & why?

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Originally Posted by avinash_clt View Post
Coming back to the question having similar FE figures for various tunes of 2.0 TDI under standard test cycles: Do we have information on higher output engines being paired with taller gear ratios (same car, similar transmission type) as the reason for the same?
Don't think the FE's of differing states of tune are the same. The 141 Bhp Octavia has an FE around 17.2 under IDC. The Superb with the 177 Bhp gives only 14.6 under IDC. That's about a 20% difference in FE.
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Old 14th April 2017, 21:00   #70
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Default Re: VW 2.0 TDI: Different Power & Torque outputs - How & why?

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Originally Posted by jalsa777 View Post
I asked this question to a dear friend, Niranjan Todkari, who happens to be an expert on VW engines
Could you find out what (and why) the difference in the heads and head gaskets?

Regards
Sutripta
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Old 17th April 2017, 10:50   #71
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Default Re: VW 2.0 TDI: Different Power & Torque outputs - How & why?

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Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
Could you find out what (and why) the difference in the heads and head gaskets?

Regards
Sutripta
The main difference between the EA 288 and the EA 189 was the addition of a cooling circuit (called cooling circuit by VW but actually a heating circuit)which allowed the coolant to flow through the head thereby heating up the coolant faster. In addition, VW also integrated the exhaust manifold into the engine head to further facilitate the heating up of the coolant when it passed through the head circuit.

This was primarily done to let the engine reach its normal operating temperature faster - more relevant in colder climates where the internal heating would also be active sooner.

I have attached pics of the heads of EA 288 and EA 189. The difference is the coolant feeder and its clamp. Part no's 16 and 20 in the black and white pic and 9 and 13 in the sketch pic respectively. Hope this helps.
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Old 17th April 2017, 21:11   #72
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Default Re: VW 2.0 TDI: Different Power & Torque outputs - How & why?

^^^
Thanks.
Logically, cooling rather than heating would be the objective.

Regards
Sutripta
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Old 7th May 2017, 21:02   #73
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Default Re: VW 2.0 TDI: Different Power & Torque outputs - How & why?

I have been reading this thread full Sunday afternoon without blinking an eyelid when I normally prefer to snore away my weekly blues. Now when my wife is busy preparing a good Sunday dinner of lemon grass chicken and saute beans, my mind is trying to rev up like a 190 bhp VAG engine.

My effort is towards simplifying the problem, first, the two factors which affect the power output and can be disregarded out rightly

Internal friction of the engine, no brainer here.

Gear box and gear ratios and everything beyond, in my opinion, mentioned or advertised BHP/torque values are measured at the crankshaft end and not after that.

After negating these two, only factors that remain in contention are mass flow and gas temperature in the chamber.

There are some indications towards higher mass flow settings for engines with higher ratings, but then it also implies that lower rated engines are over engineered and are set to their present states for considerations other than simple engineering.

Higher engine operating temperature or lower exhaust gas temp is a way of improving thermal efficiency of the engine and thus the power output, we do get some indications for that considering the parts catalogue. (NOx was not an issue in times when I did engineering and I don't think it is much of an issue with VW till atleast recently)

Surely whatever one does to the ECU these are the only things which get impacted at the end.

So I deduce that it is nothing really more than ECU tweaks, but it also leaves me to fathom that how and from where do these companies recover the cost of their over engineered engines, is it from Polo's or Q5's.
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Old 7th May 2017, 21:32   #74
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Default VW 2.0 TDI: Different Power & Torque outputs - How & why?

Of all the replies, the one by Mr Niranjan Todkari, as quoted by "jalsa777" (post#68) seems the most believable and understandable by logic.
Basically the engine block is same.
As you move up on the engine power output, different design of cylinder heads are used to aid better gas flow (mass flow). To move more mass through the engine bigger turbochargers is used.
And finally the strength of the moving parts, pistons, con rods go up as the power out put increases.
Block same other bits keep changing, and yes the ECU program also as you go along.
Off topic a bit,
If I am not mistaken the first gen TATA Indica used same cast iron cylinder block for petrol and diesel models.

Last edited by norhog : 7th May 2017 at 21:36.
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Old 8th May 2017, 00:10   #75
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Default Re: VW 2.0 TDI: Different Power & Torque outputs - How & why?

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Originally Posted by norhog View Post
As you move up on the engine power output, different design of cylinder heads are used to aid better gas flow (mass flow). To move more mass through the engine bigger turbochargers is used.
And finally the strength of the moving parts, pistons, con rods go up as the power out put increases.
Block same other bits keep changing, and yes the ECU program also as you go along.
True about turbos, and about cylinder heads for the current EA288 series (which was being referred to in post #68).

But for the older EA189 series, engine internals including pistons, rings, con-rods, crankshafts, valves, camshaft etc and even whole cylinder heads (in some cases) remained the same, throughout its application of 110PS/250Nm to 170PS/350Nm. Explained here with part numbers: 2.0TDI EA189 engine internals (VW 2.0 TDI: Different Power & Torque outputs - How & why?)
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