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Old 30th March 2017, 22:32   #1
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Default Difference between BS3 and BS4 engines

Q-What is the difference between BS3 and BS4 Engines?
Q-What are the parameters which would affect the BS4 to be more nature friendly?
Q-How will BS4 engine be less polluting from BS3 engines?
Q-With the current fuel which we get in our Fuel Pumps, will that be sufficient to reduce the pollution with the BS4 engines?
Q-What happens to those who drive/ride BS3 and older models?

I was trying to look for the above said answers, but couldn't find one. Hence, posting the thread here to seek answers from the Gurus of the automotive field?

Mods: I was trying to search for a thread to answer the above questions, which I could not find. My sincere apologies if there is a thread which already exist, kindly merge these questions in that thread. Thank You.

Last edited by GTO : 3rd April 2017 at 10:13. Reason: Removing unnecessary BOLD tags
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Old 31st March 2017, 13:27   #2
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Default Re: Difference between BS3 and BS4 engines

This should be an interesting read: http://auto.ndtv.com/news/bs3-vs-bs4...-units-1675561

To answer your questions simply from what I know,

Q-What is the difference between BS3 and BS4 Engines?

Its not just the engine. BS4 defines limits of pollutants that can come out of the exhaust for each class of vehicle, plus a few other things. This can be achieved in more than one way. Of course, with more engineering. The vehicle is overall better than BS3.


Q-What are the parameters which would affect the BS4 to be more nature friendly?

Definitely the allowed upper limit of pollutants from the exhaust would be first. Unsure if there are any other relevant rules in BS4.


Q-How will BS4 engine be less polluting from BS3 engines?

Because, by design the vehicle emit less harmful gases. Again, it is not just the engine. Methods like adding some air into exhaust to get rid of unburned fuel vapours, use of catalytic converters etc. can help.

Q-With the current fuel which we get in our Fuel Pumps, will that be sufficient to reduce the pollution with the BS4 engines?

Highly debatable.

Q-What happens to those who drive/ride BS3 and older models?

They can continue polluting according to the old norms.
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Old 31st March 2017, 13:45   #3
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Default Re: Difference between BS3 and BS4 engines

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shivanshu View Post
Q-What is the difference between BS3 and BS4 Engines?
Q-What are the parameters which would affect the BS4 to be more nature friendly?
Q-How will BS4 engine be less polluting from BS3 engines?
Q-With the current fuel which we get in our Fuel Pumps, will that be sufficient to reduce the pollution with the BS4 engines?
Q-What happens to those who drive/ride BS3 and older models?
Good thread

A little background on the Emission norms: First Indian emission regulations were brought into effect in 1989. From October 2010, Bharat Stage (BS) III norms were enforced across the country.
Since April 2010, BSIV was made mandatory for cars in NCR and 13 Cities. Now, BS IV has been made mandatory from April 1, 2017. (Related news)
Quote:
Q-With the current fuel which we get in our Fuel Pumps, will that be sufficient to reduce the pollution with the BS4 engines?
The current fuel we get in our fuel pumps is BS IV grade. Hence there is not much of a concern in this department. The BS IV fuel was introduced in 2010 and according to reports, it is available in 39 cities. The rest of the country still has BS III fuel.

The difference between BS III and BS IV fuel isn't much, i.e. the octane number for petrol (91) and cetane number (51) for diesel is the same in BS III and BS IV. The sulphur content has been brought down as below (SOx emissions are pretty harmful):
Petrol - 150 mg/kg to 50 mg/kg
Diesel - 350 mg/kg to 50 mg/kg
Quote:
Q-What is the difference between BS3 and BS4 Engines?
1. 2-wheelers - Major change in BS IV is the evaporative emission control. In 2 wheelers, in order to comply with the norms, bikes will have to be fitted with carbon canisters to control evaporative emissions.
The vapour from fuel has a higher amount of unburned hydrocarbons (extremely harmful to environment). So when the vehicle is parked, these vapours are formed. These escape out when refuelling and this has to be limited according to BSIV norms.

This can be done by inclusion of carbon canisters which absorb these vapours.
One more addition in the BS IV norm is to curb the amount of NOx emissions (extremely harmful to environment) which requires optimization of the combustion process and increasing the volume and surface area of catalyst used in the catalytic convertor. This can be done by adding three-way catalyst systems and oxygen sensors which is a bit tricky in aftermarket. Hence these many discounts (related thread (List of discounts on BS-III Motorbikes & Scooters in your city)).

2. Passenger vehicles:
a. Petrol vehicles mandate the inclusion of Multi-Point Fuel Injection (MPFi) and three way catalytic converter.
b. Diesel vehicles need to have Common Rail Direct Injection (CRDi) with Turbocharger & EGR (Exhaust gas recirculation). The exhaust system has to have Diesel Oxidation Catalyst (DOC) which basically oxidises hydrocarbons and carbon monoxide (harmful) to form carbon dioxide and water.
3. Commercial vehicles:
The commercial vehicles are mandated to have EGR and SCR as per BS IV norms. Selective catalytic reduction (SCR) converts NOx molecules into Nitrogen and water.
Quote:
Q-What are the parameters which would affect the BS4 to be more nature friendly?
Q-How will BS4 engine be less polluting from BS3 engines?
The major polluting factors among many are CO (carbon monoxide), HC (hydrocarbons), NOx (Nitrous oxides) and other particulate matter (PM). With the BS IV norms, the previous limits for these pollutants will be reduced.

You can see the amount of the pollutants is considerably less in BS IV (marked in green) as compared to BS III (marked in red):
Name:  Compare_Euro_US_Indian_gasoline_emission_standards.png
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Quote:
Q-What happens to those who drive/ride BS3 and older models?
IMO Nothing. They can chill .
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Old 31st March 2017, 18:38   #4
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Default Re: Difference between BS3 and BS4 engines

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shivanshu View Post

Q-With the current fuel which we get in our Fuel Pumps, will that be sufficient to reduce the pollution with the BS4 engines?
Quote:
Originally Posted by madhavgpai View Post
Q-With the current fuel which we get in our Fuel Pumps, will that be sufficient to reduce the pollution with the BS4 engines?

Highly debatable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omkar View Post
The current fuel we get in our fuel pumps is BS IV grade. Hence there is not much of a concern in this department. The BS IV fuel was introduced in 2010 and according to reports, it is available in 39 cities. The rest of the country still has BS III fuel.
Quoting my response from another thread here again. See BS4 fuel availability timeline (The predicament of 900,000 unsold BS-III vehicles)

BS4 fuel is almost nationwide now and something that should have been completed by 2015 if the original plans of trailing 5 years behind EU norms were strictly adhered to.
  • April 2010: BS4 introduction and launch in NCR + 13 cities nationwide (doubt all are Tier 1).
  • April 2014: By this time other cities were 'identified' based on vehicle/human population, being state capitals etc and supposedly 26 more cities had gone BS4 by this time, taking total to 39. An extra 24 cities were said to be in pipeline. So not all of these were Metros/Tier 1 cities.
  • April 2015: Whole of Northern India covering Jammu and Kashmir (except Leh/Ladakh), Punjab, Haryana, Himachal Pradesh, Uttarakhand, Delhi and parts of Rajasthan and western UP has BS4 fuel. This is in addition to the individual 39+ cities across various parts of the country that had gone BS4.
  • April 2016: All of Goa, Kerala, Karnataka, Telangana, Odisha, Union Territories of Daman and Diu, Dadra-Nagar-Haveli and Andaman & Nicobar, parts of Maharashtra and parts of Gujarat got BS4 fuel. Only major states left were Tamil Nadu and Andhra Pradesh.
  • April 2017: BS4 fuel nationwide.


So, aside from fuel adulteration concerns, whole of the country now have BS4 fuel, not limited to just 39 cities.
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Old 31st March 2017, 22:48   #5
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Default Re: Difference between BS3 and BS4 engines

Interesting fact: another aspect of BS4 norms is that the permitted noise limit is reduced from the BS3. I got to know this as I was told the new KTM390s don't require the external side-mounted exhaust to meet BS4 pollution norms. They needed it because of the new noise restrictions.

Last edited by IshaanIan : 31st March 2017 at 22:52.
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Old 1st April 2017, 01:49   #6
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Default Re: Difference between BS3 and BS4 engines

Quote:
Originally Posted by madhavgpai View Post
That link did give some information, thanks for that, but it is highly inaccurate in several places, its as though NDTV did no research or the author is poor in chemistry.

Quote:
The newer trucks and busses, etc will have a mandatory catalytic convertor or Diesel Oxidation Catalyst (DOC) as in the passenger vehicle segment. The DOC will take care of NOX emissions while particulate matter (which includes visible black soot) will be contained with the help of the particulate filers.
The DOC will not "take care" of NOx, it reduces it that's all, same with the particulate filters. They are simply, physical and chemical ways to decrease harmful discharges.

Quote:
Certain higher end trucks and busses will also use another type of post engine exhaust which is more advanced. These include a collection of Diesel Oxidation Catalyst (DOC), Lean Nox Catalyst (LNC) and Lean Nox Trap (LNT) and also a Urea injector called the Selective Catalytic Reduction (SCR) module.
Lean NOx Catalyst or NOx Adsorber was used in the Jetta/Golf prior to the great diesel scandal, they used this technology to boast about its absolute eco-friendliness, they got it between their legs for this stunt. Here's a quote from the ICCT : In 2015 an ADAC study (ordered by ICCT) of 32 Euro6 cars showed that few complied with on-road emission limits, and LNT cars had the highest emissions. LNT is abbreviation for NOx Adsorber

Urea injector (SCR) works, HOWEVER, it has to be topped off depending on the running, and most drivers internationally do not do so due to costs, and there is absolutely no way to ensure that they do or force them to do so, outside of MOT health checks.

These are things off the top of my head as of now, but I'll be sure to do research and get back to the thread on this with the micro-details, there is as it is, massive confusion on what necessarily gets implemented in order to qualify for BS4 norms, I'll get down to researching since I love chemistry. Any official "government" link on the same? Though I doubt even if it exists, if they'd remotely know what they're putting up.
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Old 1st April 2017, 17:07   #7
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Default Re: Difference between BS3 and BS4 engines

Quote:
Originally Posted by madhavgpai View Post
Its not just the engine. BS4 defines limits of pollutants that can come out of the exhaust for each class of vehicle, plus a few other things. This can be achieved in more than one way. Of course, with more engineering. The vehicle is overall better than BS3.
Pollution wise this is true but fuel efficiency wise it may not be true.
And more often than not the fuel efficiency suffers whenever​ additional pollution restrictions are incorporated in diesel engines.
I'm sure the same must be true for petrol engines also.

One common way of reducing NOx is EGR (exhaust gas recirculation) which interferes with the combustion process no matter how much refined is the design.
Others like SCR require additional power.
Scavenge air moisturising also interferes with combustion.
I don't know whether WID Emulsion technology is used in car engines or not but even that will reduce the specific power output because of lesser amount of fuel per injection.

Engine makers always have to compromise to maintain a delicate balance between environmental regulations and fuel efficiency.

Last edited by manson : 1st April 2017 at 18:00. Reason: Fixed quote.
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Old 2nd April 2017, 10:44   #8
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Default Re: Difference between BS3 and BS4 engines

I was thinking of bringing in my US spec Euro-3 2014 K1600 GTL motorcycle (almost 3 years on it) on "Transfer of Residence" later this year. I am assuming since it's an used vehicle they will allow Euro-3 vehicle to be imported ? Any inputs ? Also if possible, will customs accept after market modifications to make it compatible with Euro-4 ?

Last edited by devsoftech : 2nd April 2017 at 10:46.
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Old 2nd April 2017, 10:55   #9
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Default Re: Difference between BS3 and BS4 engines

Mod Note : There are several spelling & grammatical errors in your posts. This negatively affects the forum experience for other readers.

Kindly ensure that you proof-read your posts prior to submission. Also, it would be a good idea to use a spell-checker.

Last edited by GTO : 3rd April 2017 at 10:16.
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Old 3rd April 2017, 11:25   #10
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Default Re: Difference between BS3 and BS4 engines

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shivanshu View Post
Q-What is the difference between BS3 and BS4 Engines?
Q-What are the parameters which would affect the BS4 to be more nature friendly?
Q-How will BS4 engine be less polluting from BS3 engines?
Q-With the current fuel which we get in our Fuel Pumps, will that be sufficient to reduce the pollution with the BS4 engines?
Q-What happens to those who drive/ride BS3 and older models?
Nice thread. In addition, I would like to ask fellow members,

Q-What happens when the fuel moves to BS6?
Q-What happens to the service & maintenance when the norms move to BS6?
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Old 3rd April 2017, 11:36   #11
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Default Re: Difference between BS3 and BS4 engines

Quote:
Originally Posted by DevendraG View Post
Nice thread. In addition, I would like to ask fellow members,

Q-What happens when the fuel moves to BS6?
Q-What happens to the service & maintenance when the norms move to BS6?
Shifting to BS6 will be a major technological upgrade.

Most of the Gasoline engines will be downsized and turbo-charged (Maruti launched Baleno RS just to test the market).

Diesel Engines in the PV segment, will require major technical changes as additional components like SCR & DPF needs to be incorporated into the exhaust system. This would be makes the cars dearer by minimum by INR 70,000, hence Small Diesel Cars may go out of production.

Apparently, this may give a new dimension to Electric vehicles!
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Old 3rd April 2017, 17:52   #12
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Default Re: Difference between BS3 and BS4 engines

Quote:
Originally Posted by amitpunjani
This would be makes the cars dearer by minimum by INR 70,000, hence Small Diesel Cars may go out of production.
The BS6 deadline is really close in that matter. Only three years and with this input of yours, one may wonder following,
  • Chevy Beat and it's up coming face lift with 1L MJD looks at a shady future.
  • Suzuki in house 1.5L Diesel is dead even before it makes its way into market?
  • Tata tigor/Tiago with its 1L diesel is again looks at a shady future.
  • Will FIAT close shop in India ? as at-least they were staying alive with huge royalty earned from engine licensing!
  • Ford has no mass market competent petrol engine.

Having said that, if same model as present transition time frame would be followed, and Gov will take 7 years for Metro to all India transformation, then there is plenty of time for all manufacturers (sadly, less time for the environment I guess)
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Old 3rd April 2017, 18:00   #13
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Default Re: Difference between BS3 and BS4 engines

Well with BS6, I feel it will be wise to turn over completely to electric rather than tolerating less powerful & fussy smaller engines. EGR that came in BS4 is a big pain for diesel engines as is. It will reduce the life of diesel engines and bring in major repairs from 60k onwards.

With BS4 EGR diesels can be unforgiving in case you delay changing engine oil in time. The entire soot gets into the oil as gunk and will clog up the engine like there is no tomorrow.
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Old 3rd April 2017, 18:01   #14
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Default Re: Difference between BS3 and BS4 engines

How much has the fuel efficiency of most motorcycles sold in India gone down after conversion of existing BS3 engines to BS4 (not all new engines)? I see that Bajaj has shaved nearly 10% off the asking price for the CT100B (now around 29990₹ ex-showroom in most states) and Platina ComforTec (now around 46,990₹ ex-showroom) and stopped publishing their mileage figures (which were earlier listed at between 88kmpl and 106kmpl at various times).
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Old 3rd April 2017, 21:16   #15
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Default BS6 - Need for low SAPS engine oil and possible extended service intervals

Quote:
Originally Posted by amitpunjani View Post

Apparently, this may give a new dimension to Electric vehicles!
Among them, more importantly hybrids. Hope a viable charging infrastructure also takes shape by then, especially in the traffic choked cities.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NaXal View Post
Having said that, if same model as present transition time frame would be followed, and Gov will take 7 years for Metro to all India transformation, then there is plenty of time for all manufacturers (sadly, less time for the environment I guess)
Current transition time from nationwide BS3 to nationwide BS4 has been delayed partly due to effective lobbying, and possibly both automotive OEMs and oil companies working in tandem. The original plans were always to follow EU norms with a gap of 5 years. So we should have had BS5 fuel in April 2015 and whole nation should have adopted BS4 also by then.

Current proposal by the government is to 'leapfrog' to BS6 by April 2020. Considering it is just going back to original plan primarily, there is any real 'leapfrogging', except for the claims that BS6 fuel introduction will be nationwide in 2020. It also has to, as otherwise many BS6 vehicles will not be able to venture out of their home cities, owing to concerns of damage to engine and after-treatment systems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DevendraG View Post
Q-What happens when the fuel moves to BS6?
Q-What happens to the service & maintenance when the norms move to BS6?
Most of the BS4 vehicles currently in the market will have the same performance, efficiency and service/maintenance requirements when the norms switch to BS6 fuel. I say most, as there are vehicles which are currently sold as BS4, but will benefit from BS6 quality fuel (assuming fuel standards remain identical to EU6). For example, many of the direct injection petrols will run more efficient and have better performance when 95 RON petrol comes along with BS4. This is especially true for the CKD direct injection turbo petrols, which are originally designed for EU5 / EU6 maps (some of them don't even have BS4 specific engine maps from factory, but just adapts to our lower quality fuel).

Sulphur content in the fuel is said to be a limitation that prevents the direct injection petrols from operating in their stratified mode (which helps efficiency). BS6 fuel with lesser sulphur content as currently stated would help in that regard. Most of the large displacement and superbikes are also detuned owing to current RON 91 fuel. RON 95 will make perform better while being marginally more efficient too.

Regarding service and maintenance for BS6 passenger vehicles: The diesels will now have DPF. Along with ultra low sulphur diesel fuel (which BS6 guarantees), engine oils will also have to be of Low SAPS content(Sulphated Ash Phosphorous and Sulphur), in order to prevent damage to expensive DPF systems and catalysts. The additives that result in SAPS content of an oil helps it achieve better properties of soot handling, anti-corrosion, cleaning, anti-wear, and effectively producing a high TBN (Total Base Number) - which actually improves the functions expected of an engine oil, but doesn't sit will with the after-treatment systems.

Most of the engine oils used for cars in India, barring a few, are primarily of Full SAPS type and to a small extent of Mid SAPS type, making them unsuitable for using along with DPF systems. And since most manufacturers tend to have a single grade/variant of engine oil that they can use in both their petrol and diesel cars, we can see a major shift from current variants/grades of engine oil. Also certain European OEMS (like VAG / BMW / Mercedes etc) provide flexible long service intervals (often in the range of 2 years / 30,000 KMs+), when the vehicle is used along with low SAPS content oil and ultra-low sulphur diesel / petrol. So we could possibly see extended service intervals for many cars with BS6 quality fuel, which can offset the initial extra purchase cost for a BS6 spec car.

Our nation's issue with fuel adulteration will pose a major problem, bigger than now, as EU6/BS6 are less robust than BS4 systems. That will also have to be addressed by government in a strict manner.
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