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Old 22nd April 2017, 14:20   #46
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Default Re: Maruti's AMT woes

I bought my Alto K10 AMT in April 2015 and have crossed 46000 kms and 90% of the driving was inside Chennai city averaging 55kms a day. 99% of the time the car is driven in D mode. I have not faced any break downs or false shifts so far and the AMT system is functioning consistently like it was on day one. I faced the juddering issue twice and both were somewhere around 30000 kms, on both instances I tried to accelerate hard immediately after crossing a speed breaker with 4 people onboard and the car was in 1st gear in D mode. My understanding was that the gear box + small engine couldn't handle this load situation. In case if this situation was in a non AMT Alto, the driver would have revved a bit more and worked the clutch pedal which the AMT doesn't know to do. After these incidents I took care in not to accelerate hard from standstill with more than two people on board and I did not face any judder since then. Around 25000kms the Alto AMT went to Valparai hill station with 4 people on board and there was no judder issue faced. Few members here have reported judder in second gear and I was closely observing my car for the past few hundred kms and luckily there was no judder in my Alto. I'd suggest Alto, WagonR and Celerio AMT drivers to go a bit easy on the accelerator pedal when the gearbox is about to shift from 1 to 2 and check if it still judders. (similar to how we shift in manual cars).

I second vsathyap's findings here and this could be the reason why Maruti and Renault don't offer AMT in their 800cc Alto and kwid.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vsathyap View Post
his summary was that the low powered engines with poor low end torque - highly tuned for fuel efficiency will have this issue - for sure - without batting an eyelid. Clutches are being sacrificed to maintain fuel efficiency.
AMT is here to stay and recent reviews say that the AMT performs much better and lot smoother when mated to a bigger engine with more torque like that 1.3 DDiS, 1.2 K series and 1.5 DCi. AMT is no match for conventional AT or the twin clutch DSG in terms of butter smooth gear shifting but the immense convenience that the AMT provides at a low cost is unbeatable. I drive our Ertiga every weekend during our family outing and though I enjoy its comfort, refinement and ride, I get a feel of frustration while working the clutch in bumper to bumper traffic. My daily office commute covers 27kms one way and it takes 1.5 to 2 hrs to cover due to bad traffic and my little Alto AMT is the saving grace.
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Old 22nd April 2017, 17:27   #47
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Default Re: Maruti's AMT woes

I have a Celerio ZXi (O) AMT bought in Aug 2016. Just once instance of juddering when I was driving out of the parking lot. I reversed, put the car in D mode and it juddered for about a second and everything was ok since then. This was as recent as last week, no other case of juddering or clutch slipping experienced.

Another issue was when AMT didn't slot the reverse gear. I think I was doing it too fast actually, a 3 point turn, and it didn't go well with my quick reflexes. Its served me well so far and I drove in the D most 80% of the time so that if there's any issue with AMT it should come up just in time from warranty standpoint.

By the way, is AMT covered in the extended warranty?

EDIT: My car has done 9500 kms so far.
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Old 22nd April 2017, 23:00   #48
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Default Re: Maruti's AMT woes

Good thread. I am one of the first buyers of the Maruti Alto AMT. Bought in November 2014. The car is going great at 10k+ km. There hasn't been any AMT related issues. It is a blessing in the chaotic Kolkata traffic.

It is true one needs to get used to the AMT a bit at first, to know how it is going to respond. For example, there is a noticeable lag when shifting from first to second gear. This can be overcome, as has been written on this forum before, by slightly easing on the accelerator when I predict a gear shift. While overtaking on the highways, it is best to use the manual mode.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 11:50   #49
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Thank you Vishy76 for starting this thread, I was thinking of starting such thread myself but refrained from it, as I didn't find significant no. of owners facing the issue, may be I missed somewhere.

I have 2015 Celerio ZXI, faced judder issue before 10k. After few visits to service center, got the clutch set replaced at 13k on the advice of Audioholic. The car has done 700 km since the clutch replacement and have not experienced the juddering single time. But as many have expressed, the judder is likely to come up again after 3k of clutch replacement, so keeping a watch on it.

Those who are not facing the juddering issue even after 20k on the car, touchwood for them. May be the driving pattern played the role in suppressing the juddering issue!? Otherwise, if its faulty part/software, all owners should face it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shreyans_Jain View Post
Lets face it. AMTs suck. They are jerky. They are lazy. They are easily confused. They are not very reliable either! This is a proven failed tech for passenger cars the world over,
Although I am facing the issues with AMT, I don't agree with it completely. Every technology has its own limitation and it takes time to improve it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vikramk View Post
I guess it won't be too long before we see reviews of AMT equipped cars where we see something like - "Concerns over long term reliability of AMT gearbox".
and

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shreyans_Jain View Post
Both Tata and Maruti are sourcing their AMT kits from Magneti Marelli. But Tata was using a more advanced version in the Zest as compared to what Maruti was using with the K10 engined cars.
Can you please more info on the difference of AMT kits used by TATA and Maruti, particularly the advantages of the advanced version of AMT gearbox.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vsathyap View Post
I remember the technical advisor saying that Maruti has realized this issue and is offering clutch plates with a higher amount of friction material (i.e., a slightly thicker coating of the friction material) in the newer AMT offerings. He also said that he was earlier working with Tata Service for over 7-8 years and he saw the same issues in Nano AMTs - his summary was that the low powered engines with poor low end torque - highly tuned for fuel efficiency will have this issue - for sure - without batting an eyelid. Clutches are being sacrificed to maintain fuel efficiency. I dont know how far this is true or if its something to be taken seriously or lightly but by the trend of things and the purpose of this thread, there may be some logic in what the TA said.
Can you tell the date when your advisor raised this issue with Maruti? Just trying to know how long the Maruti is working on this issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vsathyap View Post
More than a driving patterm I'd say its a traffic based pattern. Driving in heavy stop and go traffic in congested cities causes more clutch wear (either driving a manual or an AMT).
May be its combination of Driving+Traffic pattern. If those who are not facing the issue beyond 20k share their pattern, we can pinpoint something.


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Old 23rd April 2017, 12:20   #50
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Default Re: Maruti's AMT woes

My Tiago AMT continues to impress with absolute effortless driving experience, Both, the engine & AMT complement & work very well together. The engine, though not the most refined has great driveability with good Low End Torque which is perhaps the primary requirement of the AMT which in return helps keep the RPM Lower which is the comfort zone for the Revotron being not so rev happy. it's a win-win situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by slicvic View Post
Can this whole thing be driver related.
I would completely agree. I had found the AMT unit, along with being a good Learner is also very obedient. all it needs is pure feedback from the driver & the only medium for that is the throttle / accelerator. I am able to control the transmission completely with just the accelerator, which is including overtaking maneuvers. I learned the 'lift foot off to upshift' Trick from this forum itself & the other trick I discovered myself is .'keep pressing down accelerator gradually till completing overtaking'. This way the AMT doesn't upshift unexpectedly midway.

The whole deal is with the Driver & the AMT communicating with each other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shreyans_Jain View Post
Both Tata and Maruti are sourcing their AMT kits from Magneti Marelli. But Tata was using a more advanced version in the Zest as compared to what Maruti was using with the K10 engined cars
I am pretty sure TATA is using a more advanced version AMT Unit in the Tiago too, I have driven Alto K10 & Celerio considerably enough to make this statement, although the better performance of the Revotron engine may also be helping here. The AMT Sport mode is a Bonus!.


P.S.: Although too early to comment, *Touchwood* , No Juddering, shuddering, jerking here so far...
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Old 23rd April 2017, 13:02   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparky View Post


May be its combination of Driving+Traffic pattern. If those who are not facing the issue beyond 20k share their pattern, we can pinpoint something.
I have driven my Celerio Vxi for 22k kms and started facing mild juddering post the 2nd service @ 20k kms. I suspected the service guys for the judder as I found their driving very rash within the service station during the service. After the service, I drove it in a relaxed manner for few days hoping that the AMT would relearn the habits and avoid the judder . The judder still persists at very low speeds.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 21:40   #52
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Default Re: Maruti's AMT woes

Maybe slightly off topic but since we are discussing Tata AMTs also, here is something I would like to report from a test drive of the Tata Tiago which I posted on the Tiago AMT thread: URL (Tata Tiago AMT launched at Rs. 5.39 lakh)

Based on recommendation from others quoting some details here:

Quote:
Now here is where the fun starts. The Automatic mode test drive went fine and this is when my Dad decided to switch to Manual Mode. Once he moved to Manual Mode, the car stopped taking the accelerator input correctly and started moving in a odd manner. Also, even though he hit the "+" sign to upshift the gear that also did not work. I decided to take over the reigns and moved to the driver seat. Realized that my Dad was not doing anything wrong and something had really gone wrong with the car. The Manual mode was just not working. The car refused to move even in the first gear now. Moved back to Autmatic mode and it managed to move forward at a low speed but struggled to cross 10-15 kmph.

Finally handed over the car to the Sales Rep. and he too was unsure what to do. Switched off the car, pulled out the key and tried again but it did not work. He put the car in reverse gear and the car moved backwards smoothly. I joked that he may have to take the car backwards to the showroom all the way

He put it back to Auto mode and the car was only able to move forward at slow speeds and did not upshift to second gear also. We headed back and he dropped me back at home and promised to bring another car for Test Drive again. The car had a mileage only 1062 kms on board when I checked. The Sales Rep mentioned that even the First Service had not been completed on the car. Now there ends my story of Test Drive for today.

At the end of it here are my thoughts:

Should I dismiss this as one-off incident or is the AMT technology really mature overall or has Magneti Marelli released a product with some form of design defect? We are seeing some woes on the Maruti AMT woes thread as well.

I need to double check what kind of warranty TATA provides on the AMT Gearbox. The Sales Rep was not very sure on what all is covered under warranty.

Last edited by vsrivatsa : 23rd April 2017 at 22:03. Reason: Adding more details
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Old 23rd April 2017, 21:55   #53
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Default Re: Maruti's AMT woes

Quote:
Originally Posted by vsrivatsa View Post
Maybe slightly off topic but since we are discussing Tata AMTs also, here is something I would like to report from a test drive of the Tata Tiago which I posted on the Tiago AMT thread: URL (Tata Tiago AMT launched at Rs. 5.39 lakh)
That's a very prominent experience. I think you should post on this thread as well if it's possible. Might be very helpful.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 21:59   #54
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Default Re: Maruti's AMT woes

Quote:
Originally Posted by vsrivatsa View Post
Maybe slightly off topic but since we are discussing Tata AMTs also, here is something I would like to report from a test drive of the Tata Tiago which I posted on the Tiago AMT thread: URL (Tata Tiago AMT launched at Rs. 5.39 lakh)
Mostly an issue with the gear selector than the transmission. Though Magnetti supplies the AMT box, the shifter is still procured elsewhere. Hence there could be an issue with it. Like I said earlier, Tatas are yet to do good numbers with AMTs. Wait for it!

Off late I am seeing more Swift Dzire AMTs registered as cabs. I guess they will be the best test platform for the technology. Will definitely pull up next time and have a chat with the driver.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 22:22   #55
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Default Re: Maruti's AMT woes

My Celerio is around two and a half years old, and has done around 27,000 kilometres. Juddering, stalling, you name it, and it's happened with the gearbox at least once. It jerks like crazy while reversing. It's gotten completely stuck 4 or 5 times, which requires you to turn the ignition off and on again to re-engage the 'box. So far, this has happened only in slow moving traffic, but what if it happens on an empty road at speed with a truck behind you? I would strongly advise anyone considering a Maruti AMT to reconsider their decision. The Celerio is unfit to even be taken anywhere near a highway. I would rate this car 1.5/5 at most, primarily because of the gearbox which gives more headaches rather than making life easy in traffic.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 23:06   #56
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Default Re: Maruti's AMT woes

Reading all the posts, seems driving this car start stop traffic is a key reason. I did a TD the other day of a 22k celerio, and it was jerky all the through 1-3 gear slots. A TD drive isn't the best benchmark , but that said - still undecided on whether to buy a celerio AMT or not. When I weigh my options between buying the ZXI at 6L OTR and the Grandi10 Magna at 7L OTR, it's a tough call. Given that this is my secondary car - the mileage on this would be low (for now at least).
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Old 24th April 2017, 07:33   #57
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Default Maruti's AMT woes

Quote:
Originally Posted by vankito View Post
Reading all the posts, seems driving this car start stop traffic is a key reason. I did a TD the other day of a 22k celerio, and it was jerky all the through 1-3 gear slots. A TD drive isn't the best benchmark , but that said - still undecided on whether to buy a celerio AMT or not. When I weigh my options between buying the ZXI at 6L OTR and the Grandi10 Magna at 7L OTR, it's a tough call. Given that this is my secondary car - the mileage on this would be low (for now at least).

Please go ahead with Celerio. The judder issue is not present always. It's only in 2nd gear and not always again. The issue has to be fixed by Maruti using an update to the ECU. The AMT unit in Maruti cars come with 10 years warranty, so nothing to worry about. If possible get the Zxi optional variant

I have an alto AMT and I am totally happy with it. Have taken it for highway trips too.

Last edited by aah78 : 24th April 2017 at 23:54. Reason: Typo.
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Old 24th April 2017, 08:39   #58
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Default Re: Maruti's AMT woes

Does anyone know since how long the Maruti is working on this juddering issue? and what is the current status of it?

I doubt if Maruti R&D is actually working on it with top priority! The issues we discuss here are likely to remain unsolved if it does not reach the concerned department of Maruti.
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Old 24th April 2017, 09:07   #59
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Default Re: Maruti's AMT woes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparky View Post
Does anyone know since how long the Maruti is working on this juddering issue? and what is the current status of it?
I honestly don't think that Maruti has been intimated properly about the problem and the seriousness of it.

I am drafting an email to be sent to Maruti with this thread link so it does occur in their heads to get down to perform the RCA (Root Cause Analysis) and get us solutions.
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Old 24th April 2017, 09:14   #60
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Default Re: Maruti's AMT woes

Quote:
Originally Posted by vankito View Post
Reading all the posts, seems driving this car start stop traffic is a key reason.
It would defeat the purpose of this car if start-stop traffic didnt suit AMT. I doubt that is the case. Maruti/Magneti Marelli has to update the AMT software. I've noticed the AMT is too eager to upshift in city traffic. This should change.
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