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Old 27th April 2017, 19:42   #91
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Default Re: Maruti's AMT woes

While we wait for the solution of this juddering issue from Maruti, those who are facing the issue can raise the complain to their dealership/regional manger.

I myself wrote on Maruti website feedback when the dealership wanted to do away with just reset and calibration. Once they saw my email, they called me and followed all the instructions given to them, finally replaced the clutch set after few visits. Now, as per their escalation matrix, I cannot raise the issue to the higher level on Maruti website because my issue stands solved.

If we all push the matter to the highest level we can, may be Maruti takes note of it and starts giving attention to it. I am surprised that even when Maruti had software update for cars manufactured before April 2016 (as Audioholic mentioned), they did not rolled out official recall. At least, they should have called the owners and do the silent recall!
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Old 27th April 2017, 20:11   #92
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Default Re: Maruti's AMT woes

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Originally Posted by jaaz View Post
Planning to buy a Diesel AMT. Either Ignis or the New Dzire. There are very few Diesel AMT owners on the forum. In fact, suggestion given on official review of Ignis, is to prefer Petrol AMT over Diesel.

Would be keenly following up the thread.
I was planning on buying a Diesel AMT myself. First I read the review, so had a slight mental block towards the Diesel when I test the car. My actual experience was rather different - the Diesel seemed better, though the price difference is rather high. The Petrol AMT in Pune Delta costs 6.88OTR while the diesel AMT delta is 8.43OTR. That's a whopping difference of ~1.65 lacs. I would still lean towards buying the Diesel since it seems to have lesser "noise" in the community. I spoke to a Senior Tech guy @ Maruti in Pune, and he advised that I buy the Ignis over the Celerio since the AMT box is more advanced. He stated the IGNIS also has a 4 th generation with a different firmware on it. I'm not sure if that was purely marketing talking, or ther truly is a advantage in the Ignis. That said - both cars are different engines on the petrol as well. The torque on the celerio is 90nm while the 1.2 on the IGNIS pulls 113nm. From what I've inferred on this forum , higher torque usually seems to suggest better AMT matching. If that's the case the Diesel ought to perform better. The official made a comment about the lag or power loss when the turbo spools..like I said - I didn't understand the comment.

Looking for advise on what to buy. It's between the celeron ZXI AMT (o) at 6 OTR and paying an additional 88,000 to buy the IGNIS PEtrol Delta. In terms of safety, both are same - dual airbags, and ABS / and EBD. Difference lies in the engine.!!

Last edited by Eddy : 27th April 2017 at 22:53. Reason: Whole post was in italics, hampers readability
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Old 27th April 2017, 22:22   #93
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Default Maruti's AMT woes

A few insights into the AMT system:
Maruti's AMT woes-1.jpg

This was the learning I was talking about:
Maruti's AMT woes-2.jpg

Maruti's AMT woes-3.jpg

Maruti's AMT woes-4.jpg

Last edited by Aditya : 27th April 2017 at 22:35. Reason: Fixing attachments
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Old 28th April 2017, 01:18   #94
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Default Re: Maruti's AMT woes

I mostly drive in Bangalore the previous generation Fiesta Diesel and the Celerio AMT. Have also driven a bit the Baleno AMT. Few observations:

1. The AMT is an easy drive in heavy traffic compared to the Figo, which is not the easiest for the city anyway with its short gears and good torque. But on its own, the AMT is not an easy drive, you have to apply a decent amount of thought to drive it well. It's not the easiest car.

2. It's always helped me to warm up the engine from a cold start on the AMT, it works a lot smoother compared to just cranking and driving off.

3. You need to work with the car to coax / convince it to drive the way you want to drive. But it will never do that 100%

4. As noted by others, it works a lot better if you lift completely between gear changes to make things peppier. Keeping your foot down keeps it sluggish and prone to judder.

5. It's always eager to shift up a gear, even on an incline once you hit the speed it considers right.

6. You drive using more momentum than raw power. The planning is unavoidable. Avoid a complete stop if you can help it.. Coast in 2nd and get going is the best option there.

7. Judder is guaranteed if you try to keep crawling using throttle input under 1K RPM. It manages the crawl fine if you do not use throttle. This is not an option on an incline, you have to use the handbrake there.

8. I do not use manual mode at all. My muscle memory gets confused. Overtakes are always something that requires planning and extra margin for safety. It will mess you up if you take blind risks.

9. The Baleno AMT was really good. Felt quite close to a normal auto, even without the sport mode.

10. You have to modulate the throttle in a particular way. It's a short sharp jab followed by a lift. Takes time to master it.

11. If you have to reverse right after starting it, expect a rough launch.
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Old 28th April 2017, 02:36   #95
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Default Re: Maruti's AMT woes

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Originally Posted by codelust View Post
9. The Baleno AMT was really good. Felt quite close to a normal auto, even without the sport mode.
Because its not an AMT , its a CVT and is definitely expected to be much smoother.

Tried a Celerio AMT on a short drive once and completely agree with most of your points.
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Old 28th April 2017, 09:59   #96
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Default Re: Maruti's AMT woes

Quote:
Originally Posted by vankito View Post
Looking for advise on what to buy. It's between the celeron ZXI AMT (o) at 6 OTR and paying an additional 88,000 to buy the IGNIS PEtrol Delta. In terms of safety, both are same - dual airbags, and ABS / and EBD. Difference lies in the engine.!!
I suggest picking the Ignis over Celerio. In my experience, the 3 cylinder K10 is rather noisy at higher rpms and lacks low-end torque. I think Ignis gives more VFM

Being said that, do a test drive of both. If possible on the same day and in similar road conditions.
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Old 28th April 2017, 15:23   #97
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Default Re: Maruti's AMT woes

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Originally Posted by agambhandari View Post
Because its not an AMT , its a CVT and is definitely expected to be much smoother.
How did I ever miss that detail staring big and bright in my face?

Well, that resolves one enduring mystery of life for me. Thanks for pointing it out
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Old 29th April 2017, 19:42   #98
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Default

So got the clutch replaced for the second time. This time the judder was not yet so prominent but thanks to the nice folks at the service center, clutch kit replaced without any questions asked. Of course I didnt want to return there a few days later again and got everything opened up. Hopefully, this should be the last premature replacement.

Second service:
Maruti's AMT woes-imageuploadedbyteambhp1493474720.455696.jpg

Third service:
Maruti's AMT woes-imageuploadedbyteambhp1493474770.723911.jpg

The service center folks are totally helpless in this matter and we have had a really good relationship throughout. It is now left to the company to work on the issue and bring out a resolution. As long as warranty is there the dealership told they would replace the clutch disc but after that they should get a goodwill warranty clearance from MS to make the replacement.

Also, there is no such 10 year warranty on the AMT. I was not believing the news articles and hence hadn't spoken about it. But confirmed that there is no special warranty on the AMT today.

Can someone who's AMT unit has been replaced under warranty share the cost of the same? I heard an astronomical number from the works manager but want to double check if he gave a sane figure or not.

Last edited by audioholic : 29th April 2017 at 19:49.
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Old 29th April 2017, 20:52   #99
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Default Re: Maruti's AMT woes

Quote:
Originally Posted by audioholic View Post
So got the clutch replaced for the second time. This time the judder was not yet so prominent but thanks to the nice folks at the service center, clutch kit replaced without any questions asked. Of course I didnt want to return there a few days later....

Can someone who's AMT unit has been replaced under warranty share the cost of the same? I heard an astronomical number from the works manager but want to double check if he gave a sane figure or not.
Sad to hear that you had to get the clutch replaced again.

On a more positive note, it is good to hear that the A.S.S is supportive as always and actually went beyond the call of duty. They could have dismissed this off as a minor niggle (ala Volkswagen) and finished the whole episode off.

Let's just hope Maruti is listening. Until Maruti does something, the dealers are helpless.

Fingers crossed that this doesn't happen again? BTW, what was the astronomical figure quoted for the gearbox?

It is also cleared once and for all, the AMT does not have a 10 year warranty

Regards,
Vishy

Last edited by vishy76 : 29th April 2017 at 20:56.
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Old 30th April 2017, 09:39   #100
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Default Re: Maruti's AMT woes

Here is the job sheet of my first clutch set replacement. I really hope that I don't have to go for 2nd replacement and Maruti comes up with the solution soon.

Maruti's AMT woes-20170430_091156.jpg

My car had done about 800 km after the replacement, and have not faced the juddering issue single time. On a good note, the clutch set replacement seems to be the work around solution until Maruti finds the permanent solution.

To a4anurag, did you received any reply from Maruti to your email draft?
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Old 30th April 2017, 20:55   #101
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Default Re: Maruti's AMT woes

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Originally Posted by audioholic View Post

A faulty gearbox might screw up the AMT module if the gears don't slot in correctly. If just the AMT module is replaced, the new one will fall too # especially when we talk about short timeliness.

Imagine in an MT car we face issue of hard gear shifts. We can feel this easily and troubleshoot the issue. But if this same gearbox is fitted with an AMT, we can never get to know such an issue will exist until the AMT module itself fails. Again, replacing the AMT module will still leave the root problem in the car. Hence there will be repeated failures.
+1 to that. Excellent point of view! Though a gearbox may not necessarily be 'faulty' (rare occurrence with MSIL cars), those not very refined boxes with occasional slotting-in issues (for e.g., the familiar difficulty in engaging 1st and reverse gear, which we would otherwise laugh off as negligible inconveniences) could take a toll on the overworked AMT module, causing it to eventually fail.

The key would be to revisit the gearboxes and ascertain that they are 100% butter smooth. Stricter quality control (not that it is lacking) may help identify the root cause. AMT modules made by a reputed manufacturer like Magneti Marelli (who is tasked with supplying components at the highest level of motorsport - F1), cannot be suspect. There's a 10 year warranty on the AMT modules!
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Old 2nd May 2017, 15:10   #102
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Default Re: Maruti's AMT woes

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Originally Posted by vishy76 View Post
On a more positive note, it is good to hear that the A.S.S is supportive as always and actually went beyond the call of duty. They could have dismissed this off as a minor niggle (ala Volkswagen) and finished the whole episode off.

Let's just hope Maruti is listening. Until Maruti does something, the dealers are helpless.
Definitely not complaining here. The service center knows this issue well and it was only the first time they said that this was a faulty clutch disc. After a few rounds of discussions, I learnt that they have lost count of the number of replacements they have made. Now that WagonR is also launched in AMT, the numbers will just increase. However, since they know me well now, both me and my car get unmatched attention. To add to that, I have made it clear that I am from the automobile industry as well and I dont take lame excuses. Hence, everytime I visit them, I am greeted by the supervisors straight, and any work is planned with the works manager. The SA is present only to take down notes

Since our discussions have always been on a positive note, I am not making a fuss there since there is no point in losing the relationship with the dealer for a fault of the manufacturer. The only useless entity here is the TSM whose attitude is now worse than a run down govt. office which itself is improving. Made this point clear to the people at the dealership that this man was not doing his job nicely and he isnt the first TSM I have met.

I got an assurance from the GM and WM of service that Maruti is seriously working on this issue. Hopefully, they should update the firmware soon else the whole AMT strategy will bomb with cars now out of warranty for the first batch of customers and not everyone will be ok with replacing clutch every now and then.

Good for those who have extended warranty and bad for those who dont.
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Old 2nd May 2017, 17:39   #103
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Default Re: Maruti's AMT woes

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Originally Posted by audioholic View Post
However, since they know me well now, both me and my car get unmatched attention.
Nothing against you personally and I'm glad that your car gets its due attention. However, to me its a bit disappointing that in this age we still need to have 'contacts/influence' to get stuff done properly. Just that I hope each customer's car was treated equally well. There's a guy in my office who knows a higher-up in MSL and he says that after every service his car comes back looking so spankingly new that it could shame the guys at 3M Car Care.

For this reason alone, I've purchased the Team-BHP stickers and am now gonna put a big bold one on my car today. Tomorrow may car goes for its first service and I hope the A.S.S guys see the sticker and do their job properly

Quote:
Originally Posted by audioholic View Post
The only useless entity here is the TSM whose attitude is now worse than a run down govt. office which itself is improving.
I'm new to the abbreviations here. Who's a TSM?

Quote:
Originally Posted by audioholic View Post
I got an assurance from the GM and WM of service that Maruti is seriously working on this issue.
Good to know! Hope they come-up with a fix soon, else given Maruti's influence on the Indian car market, it'll be a death knell not only for Maruti AMTs but all AMT vehicles in India, effectively putting Automatics out of reach of common man again.
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Old 2nd May 2017, 21:37   #104
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Default Re: Maruti's AMT woes

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Originally Posted by cityslicker86 View Post
Nothing against you personally and I'm glad that your car gets its due attention. However, to me its a bit disappointing that in this age we still need to have 'contacts/influence' to get stuff done properly. Just that I hope each customer's car was treated equally well. There's a guy i the A.S.S guys see the sticker and do their job properly

I'm new to the abbreviations here. Who's a TSM?
.
Mate, you can't call it contacts or influence. I am one cranky customer and that's it. During the second service the SA tried his tricks on me and I took that matter to such a level that if I am around the dealership the SA goes into hiding That one scene is enough to ensure that you and the car is always treated with the best attention. That is all I have done and I don't know anyone personally. Hence I appreciate that they treat a cranky customer like me positively and not do some kind of black list and try to make things worse.

That said, I have never tried to abuse anyone or be harsh or rude when dealing with the dealership. You just have to make your point and stand by it. That alone gains you more respect and leverage. When I was around, another customer was literally yelling at a service advisor for just carrying out the scheduled filter and consumable replacements. Apparently he just wanted an oil change though his Ertiga had covered 20k kms. No one was happy with the behavior and in the end they gave up, offered a discount and let him go. I don't want to elaborate on how the relationship between the dealer and customer will continue later.

Talking about the AMT issue itself, this is the reason I have been liberal with the dealer. There is no point in blaming them. At least since they are on your side, your warranty replacements happen flawlessly. Thats all they can do to keep you happy.

TSM: Territory Service Manager - This person is the interface between the dealer and Maruti Suzuki and is responsible to supervise the dealership or a group of dealerships and is an employee of Maruti itself.

Last edited by audioholic : 2nd May 2017 at 21:39.
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Old 2nd May 2017, 22:32   #105
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Default Re: Maruti's AMT woes

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Originally Posted by cityslicker86 View Post
I'm new to the abbreviations here. Who's a TSM?
Slightly off-topic, but here you go...

https://www.team-bhp.com/abbreviations
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