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Old 20th April 2017, 19:16   #1
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Default Maruti's AMT woes

Its been around about 3 years since India saw the dawn of the Automated manual transmission all thanks to our very own Auto giant, Maruti Suzuki. The company was quick to launch the celerio first and then capitalize on the same transmission by introducing the Alto K10 AMT. Both cars proved to be a runaway success in their respective segments.

Maruti's AMT woes-maruticelerioamtleveratthe2014nepalautoshow.jpg


However, this technology hasn't come without its own set of niggles to many Maruti customers. There have been many niggles in the AMT gearbox, requiring numerous software updates and even complete gearbox replacements!

I will be trying to highlight certain known issues of this transmission. Some of which are:

Frequent Judders creeping in

Quoting an owner here:
Quote:
I am also a victim of this juddering issue. I just got my Clutch Set replaced yesterday (31-03-17) as per your advice, Audioholic (thank you very much for it). The service center wanted to do away with just calibration and reset, but I insisted for the clutch set replacement, so they did it with unhappy and question face. The reality is even they don't know the real problem and they can't accept it also.

Audioholic, did you email the Maruti in Gurgaon, or dealer/regional head? Can you please share the email, so I can also fire them. Hopefully, they will be able to release the software update before my new clutch set wears out.
Loss of power to drive wheels spontaneously

Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesA View Post
2nd AMT box failed on our Celerio. For many days the vehicle would lose drive while driving. Last Sunday morning it just stopped in 3rd in the middle of the road. The car would not change gears and was stuck, after waiting for 5 min tried again. It did start but the engine oil lamp lamp lit up. Drove to Kalyani Motors and after running the diagnostics confirmed the AMT box needs to be replaced. First box replaced around 17k and second failed at 25k.
Two gearbox replacements within 25K

There have also been numerous other issues reported by owners. I would like to ask all owners irrespective of their models to come forward and highlight individual issues.

After all, Maruti is the largest Indian automaker and something has to be done about these issues incase their is anything horribly wrong in these popular and high selling models.

Lets just hope Maruti is quick to respond as usual and steps in soon.

Last edited by Rehaan : 21st April 2017 at 14:15. Reason: edited post as quote was from another thread.
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Old 20th April 2017, 19:33   #2
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Default Re: Maruti's AMT woes

Even I am facing some issues with the gearbox. The gear shifts are very erratic making driving uncomfortable. Sometimes it suddenly upshifts or downshifts without any throttle input and sometimes the shifts are delayed. Some months ago I showed it to MASS and the reset the ECU. Problem was solved but after a month it started again though not as bad as before.
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Old 20th April 2017, 20:15   #3
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My 2 months old Alto AMT is having juddering issues on 1st gear similar to what audioholic mentioned. Will check with service centre later on this.
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Old 20th April 2017, 20:53   #4
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Default Re: Maruti's AMT woes

I see a lot of Celerio/WagonR AMT cars with very low running listed on used car websites. It makes me suspect of the AMT reliability/usability. Even the test ride on Dzire AMG (rather AGS) diesel was nothing to write about. Jerky shifts with delayed reactions making the heads go bob at each gear change.
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Old 20th April 2017, 21:34   #5
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Default Re: Maruti's AMT woes

I had thought about creating such a thread but wanted to first sort out my situation before calling it a 'Woe'. *Touchwood* Its definitely not a woe for me.

For the record, my Celerio has a daily running of around 60kms half on empty roads and half on semi dense traffic(Not much of jams). In eight months, it has done 9400kms as I write it out of which I was not in country for more than two months during which it was used for shorter distances.

The clutch started juddering at around 3k kms when I first reported the issue. At that time only the TCM was reset. It did temporarily solve the problem but at 5.5k kms it became bad and I got the clutch disc changed under warranty which was done without hesitation. I was told it was a bad clutch disc. Now at 9400kms, there is a faint vibration felt. Since it's not yet a severe judder, I am keeping my cool. Moreover, like I have said elsewhere, another reason why I am not losing cool is that maruti is working on this issue and they do acknowledge that this is an issue. It has not been passed off with the Chalta hai attitude.

Now coming to the AMT module failure, this is both new and concerning to me. Somehow I feel that these repeated cases are more of gearbox issues than AMT module issues. A faulty gearbox might screw up the AMT module if the gears don't slot in correctly. If just the AMT module is replaced, the new one will fall too # especially when we talk about short timeliness.

Imagine in an MT car we face issue of hard gear shifts. We can feel this easily and troubleshoot the issue. But if this same gearbox is fitted with an AMT, we can never get to know such an issue will exist until the AMT module itself fails. Again, replacing the AMT module will still leave the root problem in the car. Hence there will be repeated failures.

I trust the robustness of this AMT unit compared to the reliability of the gearbox. Currently in my near family, there are three Celerios and one WagonR AMT. Out of which my cousins Celerio has the highest running in Bumper to bumper traffic. Thankfully apart from the judder issue she hasn't faced any other issue. Hopefully she shouldnt.

I request members to also add the statistics of their car along with the issue faced.

If your AMT is running fine, please post that too since it will be confidence inspiring to know that not all cars will have trouble. Hence, please come together and post whether there is a problem or not. Most of the times it is only people with issues who come and post their experience and the ones who dont just enjoy their vehicles. Let it not be that way.
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Old 20th April 2017, 21:43   #6
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Default Re: Maruti's AMT woes

With the way Maruti's AMT's have succeeded other car makers are also jumping on to the AMT bandwagon. I've never been comfortable with the fact the AMT rolls back wards on an incline. We have a lot of malls in Chennai where the approach to a parking space is through many floors of meandering inclines and it would be a great hazard if this happens as on some days there's a traffic jam on the inclines
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Old 20th April 2017, 21:58   #7
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Default Re: Maruti's AMT woes

Keeping my fingers crossed, I bought a Duster AMT just two weeks back. :-)

- MSIL had sold more than 50,000 AMT-equipped cars till last September. Did the sales fizz out after that? I don't think so, given by the cars I see on road.
- We know Mahindra is having or had problems with TUV300 AMT. Not sure about the current status either.

Ref. the issue mentioned by Durango Dude, neither MSIL nor M&M have hill hold control, the feature that prevents a rollback. The Duster however has this function.

Last edited by sandeepmdas : 20th April 2017 at 22:00.
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Old 20th April 2017, 22:03   #8
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My feedback on AMT:

In 2 years and 22k kms later, I'm experiencing juddering in recent times, especially at inclines/ traffic signals when the car creeps , accelerates to 2nd gear and again slows down. It seems like a misjudged gear shift. It is also sometimes felt while reversing.

Will take up the issue during the next service at 30k kms. Hopefully a solution would be available.
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Old 20th April 2017, 22:07   #9
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Default Re: Maruti's AMT woes

Quote:
Originally Posted by sandeepmdas View Post
Keeping my fingers crossed, I bought a Duster AMT just two weeks back. :-)

- MSIL had sold more than 50,000 AMT-equipped cars till last September. Did the sales fizz out after that? I don't think so, given by the cars I see on road.
- We know Mahindra is having or had problems with TUV300 AMT. Not sure about the current status either.

Ref. the issue mentioned by Durango Dude, neither MSIL nor M&M have hill hold control, the feature that prevents a rollback. The Duster however has this function.
Blame it on the traffic; nowadays it's becoming increasingly difficult to drive a manual in city traffic! At the beginning of my search for a new car, I swore by a manual transmission for it's 'instant gratification', a few months down the line I've ended up with a Honda City CVT: an absolute 'nirvana' in the urban environment.
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Old 20th April 2017, 22:25   #10
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Default Re: Maruti's AMT woes

Lets face it. AMTs suck. They are jerky. They are lazy. They are easily confused. They are not very reliable either! This is a proven failed tech for passenger cars the world over, which was very conveniently lapped up by our unsuspecting and immature market. Primarily because... It was introduced by Maruti... and Maruti can do no wrong.

The Celerio AMT is not good. The Wagonr/Alto K10 AMT is not good. TUV's AMT is pretty bad. Kwid's AMT is outrightly terrible with no manual override. It once gave up on me. Didn't downshift to first while climbing a rather steep incline, and the car stalled. Try driving off up an incline in horrible AMT with no clutch and no way to force the thing into first gear. I shudder to think of those who live in hilly areas and have bought a Kwid AMT. Even Tata's more advanced AMT on the Zest is rather pedestrian.

People should steer clear of this jugaad automatic and stick with conventional torque converters and CVTs. Honestly, I wont even mind a potentially temperamental DSG. But AMT is a definite no no.

Last edited by Shreyans_Jain : 20th April 2017 at 22:31.
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Old 20th April 2017, 22:41   #11
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Default Re: Maruti's AMT woes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shreyans_Jain View Post
Lets face it. AMTs suck. They are jerky. They are lazy. They are easily confused. They are not very reliable either! This is a proven failed tech for passenger cars the world over, which was very conveniently lapped up by our unsuspecting and immature market. Primarily because... It was introduced by Maruti... and Maruti can do no wrong.

The Celerio AMT is not good. The Wagonr/Alto K10 AMT is not good. TUV's AMT is pretty bad. Kwid's AMT is outrightly terrible with no manual override. It once gave up on me. Didn't downshift to first while climbing a rather steep incline, and the car stalled. Try driving off up an incline in horrible AMT.
Agreed. Test drove the Kwid AMT and it turned out to be a disappointment when it coughed and struggled up the basement slope. My dad had to rev the nuts out of the puny 1000 cc engine.

But not all AMTs are bad. Its only that most of them have been developed in a hurry keeping costs in mind. The Dusters AMT has had no such issues and also has a hill hold function.

Even the Lamborghinis use an AMT if I am not wrong. IMO it is not the core technology that's wrong, but the shoddy development and cost cutting by most Indian manufacturers.

EDIT: There is a different thread for discussion of the technology itself. The scope of this thread is limited to only Maruti's AMTs.

Last edited by vishy76 : 20th April 2017 at 22:45.
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Old 20th April 2017, 22:43   #12
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Default Re: Maruti's AMT woes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shreyans_Jain View Post
Lets face it. AMTs suck. They are jerky. They are lazy. They are easily confused. They are not very reliable either! This is a proven failed tech for passenger cars the world over, which was very conveniently lapped up by our unsuspecting and immature market. Primarily because... It was introduced by Maruti... and Maruti can do no wrong.

People should steer clear of this jugaad automatic and stick with conventional torque converters and CVTs. Honestly, I wont even mind a potentially temperamental DSG. But AMT is a definite no no.
If I understand correctly, this thread was a platform to share issues faced by owners with AMTs and not a thread to bash the technology. Hence, it is a request to avoid the same and let the purpose of the thread be rightly fulfilled. If the technology itself should be criticised upon, then I guess its best to keep that in a separate thread.

Thanks.

Last edited by audioholic : 20th April 2017 at 22:47.
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Old 20th April 2017, 22:56   #13
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Default Re: Maruti's AMT woes

Quote:
Originally Posted by vishy76 View Post
But not all AMTs are bad. Its only that most of them have been developed in a hurry keeping costs in mind. The Dusters AMT has had no such issues and also has a hill hold function.

Even the Lamborghinis use an AMT if I am not wrong. IMO it is not the core technology that's wrong, but the shoddy development and cost cutting by most Indian manufacturers. .
I have no experience with the Duster AMT. So I will refrain from commenting on it. As for Lambos, again, I am referring to passenger cars, the ones which me and you use

Quote:
Originally Posted by audioholic View Post
If I understand correctly, this thread was a platform to share issues faced by owners with AMTs and not a thread to bash the technology. Hence, it is a request to avoid the same and let the purpose of the thread be rightly fulfilled. If the technology itself should be criticised upon, then I guess its best to keep that in a separate thread.
Thanks.
I've shared the very bad experience that I've had on the road with the Kwid AMT. Also, I have driven the Wagonr/Alto K10 AMT a fair bit to know what they are all about. My views are in that light. Again, it is not a criticism of the AMT tech. It is very much in use in mining trucks and tippers. My concern is with the application here in underpowered budget hatchbacks.
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Old 21st April 2017, 00:07   #14
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Default Re: Maruti's AMT woes

Quote:
Originally Posted by audioholic View Post
[b]If your AMT is running fine, please post that too since it will be confidence inspiring to know that not all cars will have trouble.
I have a wagonR AMT from probably the first batch of wagonR AMTs - its been 14k kms , seems to work pretty fine "as expected".

I have had no issues so far , i do find the AMT annoying at times but i believe its the way it works. Most feedback I have received from Maruti service centres and other people using AMT maruti cars has been positive as far as reliability of the AMT is concerned.

my observations :

1. there is a noticeable judder at times when the clutch is "slipping" in 2nd gear just before the control unit realizes that it needs to shift in first! A little annoying, but that usually happens in MT cars if you try to replicate a similar RPM, gear and clutch position combination.

2. In "auto" mode when going on a steep up-hill the AMT will change from 2nd to 3rd , realize that rpm drops too much and then shift back to 2nd !

3. If you give a hard accelerator input, the AMT will pause for a little bit (maybe few hundred milliseconds) and then down-shift and accelerate violently - you need to "learn" a bit to drive the AMT after checking how it reacts to accelerator input.

4. Althought there is a sort of "creep-mode" , you HAVE to use the handbrake for uphill starts since the car doesn't have "hill-hold" function or else expect wheel spins (because of giving too much accelerator input)

5. when overtaking in "auto" mode it sometimes can get a little scary if the AMT up-shifts in the middle of an overtake (the revs drop on the upshift and then the acceleration is slow - probably because the AMT is programmed to shift as early as possible for mileage) - solution - use manual mode !

6. the AMT or the ECU seems to react to the driving style - if you drive hard in "auto" mode i have noticed that the shifts happen at higher RPMs than what they would normally happen when driven normally

7. If you need to drive hard it is better you use manual mode as that prevents the AMT from upshifting too soon(default behavior) followed by downshifting (due to more accelerator input after revs drop post upshift in auto mode)

8. One has to lower their expectations that the AMT will feel and behave like a CVT/regular AT , there is no way the maruti AMTs come close to those, at best think of this as an invisible person pressing the clutch and changing gears for you !!

Last edited by techn0l0gist : 21st April 2017 at 00:29.
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Old 21st April 2017, 03:39   #15
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Default Re: Maruti's AMT woes

Mine had done almost 21K and I get the juddering issue only while using the automatic mode. Off late I have using the manual mode which is fun and yet to come across with this issue. But would still get it checked soon.
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