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Old 26th May 2017, 09:36   #226
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Default Re: Maruti S-Cross 1.6L – Sudden death of the 320 DDiS engine

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Originally Posted by i74js View Post
; if this is just one off instance and has been mishandled due to the so called "extra smartness" shown by Rohan Motors, as there are several issues reported against this particular dealer in the forum!
One can understand and not be surprised by the "extra smartness" shown by many dealers across car companies. However, in this case it appears that the manufacturer, MSIL, is in active collusion with the dealer in camouflaging the issue.
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Old 26th May 2017, 10:42   #227
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Default Re: Maruti S-Cross 1.6L – Sudden death of the 320 DDiS engine

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MSIL opinion & report remains same - fuel adulteration - hence its not a manufacturing defect (report received)
Now that Maruti has condescended to sit across the table and talk, I would like to play a devil's advocate and put forth an argument that has been doing rounds in my mind since day one. It is this:

Maruti has, since the beginning, asserted that the problem is a result of fuel adulteration. Even on Day 24, they are standing steadfastly by this analysis. Days 19 to 23 had seen a media blitzkrieg, which would not have gone unnoticed by them. Would Maruti stick to its stand at the risk of being labelled a liar at the end of this controversy?

Therefore, I have a feeling that Rohan Motors and Maruti might indeed be telling the truth although only half of it. Maruti's contention that the fuel is adulterated can be interpreted in two ways:

1. Fuel in the tank was adulterated. Could have happened at the bunk.
2. Once the oil started leaking and spraying in the engine bay (reason unknown), the same (or the coolant) could have entered the fuel lines/combustion chamber/turbo, thereby compromising and damaging the engine.

Since the OP has mentioned that the adulteration report has been received (not shared here though), I am almost sure that Maruti will manipulate the situation to highlight this very aspect as the primary reason for the mishap.

Whatever mistakes might have occurred in the previous service, the OP has, as pointed by many, driven the car home with the CEL on. Had he done what the light told him to - CHECK(ed) the ENGINE (bay) on the spot, a lot of problems could have been avoided.

I am not condoning the carelessness of the MASS as evidenced in the way parts were strewn around. My thoughts are related to the fuel adulteration diagnosis alone.
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Old 26th May 2017, 12:37   #228
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Default Re: Maruti S-Cross 1.6L – Sudden death of the 320 DDiS engine

Just a thought: Since the thread title is unbiased as of now by just stating the issue with the engine, it could be a good space to ultimately reflect the customer experience either in positive or negative, based on the final resolution and MSIL way of taking care of the customer.

I'm also looking forward to detailed updates from 100BHP among other T-BHPians as a good closure to the events in this thread.
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Old 26th May 2017, 12:51   #229
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Default Re: Maruti S-Cross 1.6L – Sudden death of the 320 DDiS engine

On a different note, if it is indeed fuel contamination then MUL has a larger issue in hand if you ask me. If this can happen in a metro like DL then imagine the plight of cars running in other parts of country?

They should seriously work on providing a solution to the larger base of existing customers, and safe guard them as well as the brand from taking a bigger dent in the future. Am sure there are systems that can detect contamination in fuel line and catch such issues before catastrophic failures like this.
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Old 26th May 2017, 12:57   #230
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Default Re: Maruti S-Cross 1.6L – Sudden death of the 320 DDiS engine

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Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom View Post
There is no tone to be set right. There is a whole forum, much of which is to do with the happier experiences of buying and driving vehicles.

This is about an experience gone bad. Very bad. And to say that other experiences may not go bad has nothing to do with it at all.
I agree. Be it Maruti or VW I find it very difficult to understand why in these days of Whatsapp, Facebook and what-not manufacturers behave as though it is a big ask for them to be transparent about products that customers pay upwards of half a million rupees?

Again it is not a big ask to have a log in their engine control software that gives them a blow by blow account of what happened in the engine that led to the failure without so much as loosening a single screw in the engine.

Such attitudes of taking customers for granted should not be tolerated. We are not here to be their friends. We love cars and the experience that comes with them. Nothing should be allowed to come in between. Often we find customers in a situation where they have to work with the manufacturer. Why isn't it the other way round? The customer in question posted his experience after three days. Does it take 20 days to begin to move in a way that the customer feels reassured? Were they waiting for the problem to go away?

I really appreciate Maruti for being proactive and taking the steps in the right direction. Given that one in two cars sold is a Maruti, it is easy to under appreciate the humongous task they have achieved in terms of maintaining customer trust given the volume of cars they deal with. We don't expect our cars not to have problems. They will. We just expect reasonable standards of support from the people who make them when problems occur. Silence, redirection back to dealers etc is not reasonable standards. That's where I am coming from.

Drive on,
Shibu.

Last edited by shibujp : 26th May 2017 at 13:01. Reason: Getting my facts straight..:)
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Old 26th May 2017, 13:28   #231
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Default Re: Maruti S-Cross 1.6L – Sudden death of the 320 DDiS engine

Adulteration is a very generic term. Has the customer asked Maruti on the details of the adulteration ? There has to be some clarity on this aspect.

Fuel adulteration in a country like ours is pretty common. In a metro like Delhi, there are loads of high end cars which are finicky when it comes to quality of the fuel. If the adulteration was at the bunk level, I would be surprised to hear that this is an isolated incident. I strongly believe the customer should push for the detailed report on the tests that concluded a fuel adulteration. Hopefully the customer did not add any of those cheap fuel additives being sold across the fuel stations. I don't think its prudent pointing fingers on either direction without knowing the full details of Maruti's test. But if everything does prove that adultration is indeed the root cause, then the reliability of the 1.6 DDiS is a suspect !

Last edited by SR-71 : 26th May 2017 at 13:43.
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Old 26th May 2017, 13:40   #232
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Default Re: Maruti S-Cross 1.6L – Sudden death of the 320 DDiS engine

Even if we accept the claim that the fuel in the car was found to be adulterated, I still have a question. What could cause this adulterated fuel to spray oil all over the engine bay?

The main issue is the oil spray and the consequent damage to the engine. Adulterated fuel would at most have damaged the fuel system (tank, pump, lines, injectors) and the engine would have died or shown other symptoms of bad fuel.

So what am I missing?
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Old 26th May 2017, 13:51   #233
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Default Re: Maruti S-Cross 1.6L – Sudden death of the 320 DDiS engine

Fuel adultery does not wash. If it is the case, then the car is not usable in the circumstances that it is sold to be used in.

This diagnosis, if I understand right, was more or less immediate. The only way a mechanic takes a glance at something and says, "that's xyz problem," is experience. They've seen it before. That's what the job is about.

So they need to be asked about this experience. Not just about lab tests that may or may not happen, and would probably show that the fuel in this tank is no less pure than that in many of most others, not just in India.
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Old 26th May 2017, 14:24   #234
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Default Re: Maruti S-Cross 1.6L – Sudden death of the 320 DDiS engine

If they are pretty sure that it was fuel adulteration ONLY, then

why clear the error codes ?
why open the engine without the permission of customer ?
how can fuel adulteration make the engine spurt so much oil out of sump and all over the engine, its not like the engine blew seal ?

I don't think this is going down well with many of us. Hope the owner of PO takes MSIL to court and get an independent verification done through a forensic lab.
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Old 26th May 2017, 14:44   #235
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Default Re: Maruti S-Cross 1.6L – Sudden death of the 320 DDiS engine

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Originally Posted by shibujp View Post
I really appreciate Maruti for being proactive and taking the steps in the right direction.
They weren't proactive. Without pushing by the company and pressure from internet publicity, Maruti's proactivity amounted to saving Maruti a buck or three. "Fuel adulteration, sir: here's the bill for a new engine."
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Old 26th May 2017, 16:05   #236
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Default Re: Maruti S-Cross 1.6L – Sudden death of the 320 DDiS engine

Good to see that your issue is getting resolved. Best wishes!
I would like to add a few notes regarding some of the possible failure modes discussed here and why those may not fly.

Over-filling of oil: When you over fill, the crankshaft whips up the oil. This causes oil to be aerated. Aerated oil damages the bearings and turbo seals due to collapse of microscopic air bubbles and also due to viscosity reduction. I would think the bearing and rotary seals would show this sign.

Turbo seal failure: If this seal fails then you can have oil inside intake and exhaust, accompanied by a bluish grey smoke from the tail pipe. You can see it in many 2-stroke exhaust systems. But, nevertheless, turbo seal failure should not cause such an oil spray. If there was oil ingestion from compressor seal failure into cylinders, then inside of the cylinder head would be covered in gunky oily black soot. But the picture does not show any such sooting either. Oil ingestion in sufficient quantity would cause hydrolock as well. Just that instead of water, it will be oil. So I doubt the turbo seal failure theory.

Adulterated fuel: If fuel is adulterated to such an extent, like petrol in diesel, or some other mixing, then there will be so much knocking and soot that the engine once opened will be covered in black soot and oily grime. You don't see that from the opened up cylinder head. I seriously doubt adulterated fuel theory.

The most plausible theory, looking through the pictures, is a scrapped/scuffed cylinder liner. There is a mention of one cylinder not developing compression. A clear sign of scuffed cylinder. Once the liner is scuffed or damaged, it lets the immense pressure from the combustion into the crankcase. Then everything from dipstick, PCV lines, oil pipe joints etc will send out a jet of oil. It has the energy to even blow out the gasket between the crankcase and oil pan. It can also increase the pressure on the supply side of the oil pump as well, thus any oil pipe joint can be a leak source as well. This jet, since it is under pressure, will be mostly a fine spray and will get ingested into the air intake. Of course, this mist or fine spray will settle everywhere in the engine bay. So it would seem to me that liner scuffing is the failure mode here.

Now the question is, how did the liner get scuffed ?
Aerated oil typically does not cause liner scuffing as liner-ring is not lubricated with pressurized oil (Thin-film lubrication). It seems that SA never mentioned any coolant level issue. So liner thermal deformation from low coolant may be ruled out. The air filter looks healthy, so I don't see any Foreign particle ingestion (FOD) causing damage.

It is possible the root cause is something, which the MSIL folks from their immense loyalty to company, concealed it. If you get to keep some of the parts then it would be a good discussion topic.

Last edited by Czarcarsm : 26th May 2017 at 16:07.
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Old 26th May 2017, 16:33   #237
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Default Re: Maruti S-Cross 1.6L – Sudden death of the 320 DDiS engine

Somethings simply do not add up.

Engine failure was evident from the state of the car in the first place. Everyone at the dealer as well as MSIL is aware that engine failures are expensive affairs and hence there is a high possibility of customer push back specially when the failure occurs on a relatively new vehicle.

MSIL needs and would be having a standard approach to deal with engine failures.

Had they suspected fuel adulteration in the first place, it would have been very easy for them to simply take the fuel sample, test it and show the report to the customer. All this before scavenging through the engine to identify the cause.

This way, it would have been more easy to convince the customer and he would not have to go thru the agony of seeing his beloved vehicle in the torn and tattered state which the service centre has left it in.

Add to this their actions of opening the engine without relevant clearances from the customer and clearing the error codes etc. it is obvious that even the MSIL guys were unsure of the cause and this was the core reason that they decided to open up the engine.

Either they did their research on the car and have ensure that they fix it with the next batch or, it is pretty much possible that they are unable to locate the cause of the failure and hence are making adulterated fuel the culprit and scapegoat.

Last edited by MS_Auto : 26th May 2017 at 16:37. Reason: afterthoughts
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Old 26th May 2017, 18:53   #238
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Default Re: Maruti S-Cross 1.6L – Sudden death of the 320 DDiS engine

Ith over two hundred posts, I may have missed it, possibly even on the first page, and if so, sorry, but what was the actual damage to the engine? Has it seized? Pistons? Bearings?

But a seized engine does not get a person home: it absolutely stops right there and then.
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Old 26th May 2017, 19:44   #239
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Default Re: Maruti S-Cross 1.6L – Sudden death of the 320 DDiS engine

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Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom View Post
Ith over two hundred posts, I may have missed it, possibly even on the first page, and if so, sorry, but what was the actual damage to the engine? Has it seized? Pistons? Bearings?

But a seized engine does not get a person home: it absolutely stops right there and then.
Check Day9 activities. In that paragraph the MSIL agent mentions bore distortion. But the user 100BHP also mentions that he drove the vehicle to his parking lot. So that would mean no seizure happened. Just liner distortion or scuffing. Had he driven further, either the engine would have had oil starvation related failure or the liner would have seized. At that point he would have had no escape route. NEXA would have blamed the failure squarely on him. He was lucky.

Last edited by Czarcarsm : 26th May 2017 at 19:47.
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Old 26th May 2017, 20:05   #240
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Default Re: Maruti S-Cross 1.6L – Sudden death of the 320 DDiS engine

The same fuel is being pumped into all four cylinders, why is it that only one cylinder was affected? Compression low? Scuffed liners. Questions and many more questions.
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