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Old 26th May 2017, 21:23   #241
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Default Re: Maruti S-Cross 1.6L – Sudden death of the 320 DDiS engine

Very Interesting case. Given that it is a new engine and there is spray all over the engine bay, I would guess

1, One of the high pressure oil lines broke. There is too much oil in the engine bay in various places,just to be seepage. Talk to Maruti and ask them to explain where did the oil come out from. It is not seepage or anything. There was a literal flood of oil and it should have come out from somewhere at pressure- to even get into the air box.

2, I guess the engine ran low on oil. Most of the pictures here does not show any oil inside the engine, but everywhere else. That would explain why one cylinder scuffed and died.

I'm surprised that the engine did not sound different or vibrate while being driven.

If I have to put my money on a guess, i would guess that the pressurized oil line to the turbo broke (or the oil return line from the turbo broke ) and sprayed oil everywhere. Some of the oil got sucked in through the intake. Then the engine ran low on oil and scuffed the cylinder.

I'm hoping that the turbo in this engine has an oil feed.
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Old 27th May 2017, 00:41   #242
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Czarcarsm View Post
The most plausible theory, looking through the pictures, is a scrapped/scuffed cylinder liner. There is a mention of one cylinder not developing compression. A clear sign of scuffed cylinder. Once the liner is scuffed or damaged, it lets the immense pressure from the combustion into the crankcase. Then everything from dipstick, PCV lines, oil pipe joints etc will send out a jet of oil. It has the energy to even blow out the gasket between the crankcase and oil pan. It can also increase the pressure on the supply side of the oil pump as well, thus any oil pipe joint can be a leak source as well. This jet, since it is under pressure, will be mostly a fine spray and will get ingested into the air intake. Of course, this mist or fine spray will settle everywhere in the engine bay. So it would seem to me that liner scuffing is the failure mode here.

Now the question is, how did the liner get scuffed ?
Aerated oil typically does not cause liner scuffing as liner-ring is not lubricated with pressurized oil (Thin-film lubrication). It seems that SA never mentioned any coolant level issue. So liner thermal deformation from low coolant may be ruled out. The air filter looks healthy, so I don't see any Foreign particle ingestion (FOD) causing damage.

It is possible the root cause is something, which the MSIL folks from their immense loyalty to company, concealed it. If you get to keep some of the parts then it would be a good discussion topic.

Mr Czarcarsm has hit it on the head, I believe. The most plausible theory behind what has possibly happened in this fiasco. Still leaving the million dollar question as to HOW DID THAT SINGLE CYLINDER GET SCUFFED. That's the one secret that Maruti will not very easily let anyone in on. Unless the law or some other reason screws their ears to get it out from them. Excellent post sir.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
The same fuel is being pumped into all four cylinders, why is it that only one cylinder was affected?


Excellent point. Exactly this fact, logically means that the scuffing occured first and it ultimately resulted in the oil spewage and not the other way around, as many would guess.

Because, if the oil spewed out first and then caused the scuffing, it wouldn't be partial to one cylinder. You'd have a whole lot of other components which would have showed signs of seizure and damage, for example, the other cylinders, piston-rings, valves, camshafts/s, connecting rod bearings and the shims, a whole big jingbang. Nothing of that has apparently happened even remotely. So oil starvation certainly doesn't seem to be what primarily started all this here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jomz View Post
Very Interesting case. Given that it is a new engine and there is spray all over the engine bay, I would guess

1, One of the high pressure oil lines broke. There is too much oil in the engine bay in various places,just to be seepage. Talk to Maruti and ask them to explain where did the oil come out from. It is not seepage or anything. There was a literal flood of oil and it should have come out from somewhere at pressure- to even get into the air box.

2, I guess the engine ran low on oil. Most of the pictures here does not show any oil inside the engine, but everywhere else. That would explain why one cylinder scuffed and died.

I'm surprised that the engine did not sound different or vibrate while being driven.

If I have to put my money on a guess, i would guess that the pressurized oil line to the turbo broke (or the oil return line from the turbo broke ) and sprayed oil everywhere. Some of the oil got sucked in through the intake. Then the engine ran low on oil and scuffed the cylinder.

I'm hoping that the turbo in this engine has an oil feed.
I'm afraid all your guesses are way off the mark sir. Your first one is that oil leaked out and caused this, which is not possible as I have agreed with 'Jaggu's post above.

Your second guess of running low on oil as you can't "see" enough oil around is because when engines are opened up for inspection or whatever job, the first procedure is to DRAIN THE ENGINE OIL before doing anything else. It's not exactly like working on Mango pickle dunked in mustard oil where you just work everything around with tons of the oil around. Just saying. You have to wipe every part clean and progress ahead or you would have a pickle instead of an engine . No offence. I think either you missed that or you were joking. So, no. You don't see oil because they removed it.

Your last guess(which you put your money on) also runs on the premises that the oil played spoilt sport first. Same thing. We have seen how that just doesn't seem to have been possible.

I think you didn't go through 'Czarcarsm's post some while back. It was the most sane looking post on this thread. It was so good, it almost had me in tears. Happens when you see some sanity in between so much of confusions. Awesome. I love this guy.
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Old 27th May 2017, 01:34   #243
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Default Re: Maruti S-Cross 1.6L – Sudden death of the 320 DDiS engine

Quote:
Originally Posted by Czarcarsm View Post

The most plausible theory, looking through the pictures, is a scrapped/scuffed cylinder liner. There is a mention of one cylinder not developing compression. A clear sign of scuffed cylinder. Once the liner is scuffed or damaged, it lets the immense pressure from the combustion into the crankcase. Then everything from dipstick, PCV lines, oil pipe joints etc will send out a jet of oil. It has the energy to even blow out the gasket between the crankcase and oil pan. It can also increase the pressure on the supply side of the oil pump as well, thus any oil pipe joint can be a leak source as well. This jet, since it is under pressure, will be mostly a fine spray and will get ingested into the air intake. Of course, this mist or fine spray will settle everywhere in the engine bay. So it would seem to me that liner scuffing is the failure mode here.
On diesel engine with scuffed liner, it will not build compression and fuel will not ignite in the cylinder.
So there is no combustion per se.

In case of any excessive pressure, the dipstick will lift and relieve pressure. I guess the oil seperator also has a relief valve. It is really hard to pressurize the entire block.
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Old 27th May 2017, 09:34   #244
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Default Re: Maruti S-Cross 1.6L – Sudden death of the 320 DDiS engine

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Originally Posted by 100BHP View Post
Update Day 25 :

There has been discussion with MSIL yesterday also. I am awaiting for final feedback from them for repairs .

Hopefully it will be given today morning & by Sunday PO can be at its home again.

Thanks for little patience to all of you !

*UPDATE DAY 26*


Engine part received has part no. 11000M62M00, I have yet to see the part.
Some more parts were recommended by MSIL team & hopefully they will arrive today & I will recieve a call today to visit for repair start at Rohan Motor. I will share the details as soon as possible .

MSIL team reviewed the existing turbo & confirmed it as fit for use .

Stereo system missing knob has mysteriously re-appeared at its usual location

Need to prepare the check list for WIP ... Any suggestions ? Thanks
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Old 27th May 2017, 10:10   #245
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Default Re: Maruti S-Cross 1.6L – Sudden death of the 320 DDiS engine

Quote:
Originally Posted by 100BHP View Post
Engine part received has part no. 11000M62M00
This I presume is the complete engine assemble going by the part number in the S-Cross parts catalogue

Maruti S-Cross 1.6L – Sudden death of the 320 DDiS engine-20170402_000439.jpg

Good to see the complete engine being replaced rather than scavenging for damaged parts and replacing only that ones.

I feel that most of the hoses in the engine bay would need replacement plus the hood insulation too​ would be needing a change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 100BHP View Post
MSIL team reviewed the existing turbo & confirmed it as fit for use .
How did they check it? Any idea?

Last edited by a4anurag : 27th May 2017 at 10:13.
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Old 27th May 2017, 10:19   #246
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Default Re: Maruti S-Cross 1.6L – Sudden death of the 320 DDiS engine

Quote:
Originally Posted by 100BHP View Post

Engine part received has part no. 11000M62M00, I have yet to see the part.
Some more parts were recommended by MSIL team & hopefully they will arrive today & I will recieve a call today to visit for repair start at Rohan Motor. I will share the details as soon as possible .
Great!! Full engine assembly replacement is the way to go. Do share more details

Quote:
MSIL team reviewed the existing turbo & confirmed it as fit for use
Please inspect the turbo thoroughly. If possible, take pics from all angles and confirm with some expert.

Quote:
Stereo system missing knob has mysteriously re-appeared at its usual location
Haha.. I hope somebody else is not searching for HU knob in his car
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Old 27th May 2017, 10:46   #247
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Default Re: Maruti S-Cross 1.6L – Sudden death of the 320 DDiS engine

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jomz View Post
On diesel engine with scuffed liner, it will not build compression and fuel will not ignite in the cylinder.
So there is no combustion per se.

In case of any excessive pressure, the dipstick will lift and relieve pressure. I guess the oil seperator also has a relief valve. It is really hard to pressurize the entire block.
Yes, you are correct, but it is a bit more complicated.
The fuel injection starts near TDC. The highest temperature from the reaction happens around TDC. This is also where the maximum gas expansion happens, 1000’s of times the injected fuel volume. Since the expansion is near constant volume, as the piston is moving very little, the energy quickly builds up. Now as the scuffing starts, and engine speed at around, say 1500-2000 rpm, all it needs is a few seconds. The pressure quickly builds up in the crankcase. In larger engines I have seen the inspection doors on the crankcase being blown out, with oil all over the place! The crankcase ventilation valve, dipstick etc are just not sufficient to kill this sudden expansion. Marine engines have explosion proof inspection doors. But genset engines etc typically do not as service folks are not around when it is running.

Once scuffed then there is very little compression. Continued running can cause seizure, like in friction welding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 100BHP View Post

*UPDATE DAY 26*


Engine part received has part no. 11000M62M00, I have yet to see the part.
Some more parts were recommended by MSIL team & hopefully they will arrive today & I will recieve a call today to visit for repair start at Rohan Motor. I will share the details as soon as possible .

MSIL team reviewed the existing turbo & confirmed it as fit for use .

Stereo system missing knob has mysteriously re-appeared at its usual location

Need to prepare the check list for WIP ... Any suggestions ? Thanks
Congratulations on achieving a major milestone !
I don't think they will reuse the turbo on a new engine under warranty unless, they are absolutely sure. If turbo has worn seal or some mechanical damage, then it is possible that due to damage build-up, the turbo compressor parts would get ingested into combustion chamber and form a nice metallic art. Meeting of a stuck valve and a piston is very interesting to look at. So may be the turbo is indeed good.
No harm in noting down what they are reusing. May be email that list to MSIL just for records. Ignore cables, connectors etc. Note down sensors and mechanical parts for sure.
Best wishes !

Last edited by Czarcarsm : 27th May 2017 at 10:51.
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Old 27th May 2017, 12:25   #248
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Default Re: Maruti S-Cross 1.6L – Sudden death of the 320 DDiS engine

Good to see some progress, parts coming and MUL being directly involved in inspection and all (I assume).

A sealed complete engine would have been so much better, maybe they don't have it in stock for the 1.6 liter. My worry is because they are still harping on fuel contamination, if so what about pump, rails and injectors? Or are these part of the full assembly? Since these would be exposed to the contamination more.

Anyways hope the car is up and running asap and they offer some sort of guarantee on parts not being replaced now.
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Old 27th May 2017, 13:54   #249
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Default Re: Maruti S-Cross 1.6L – Sudden death of the 320 DDiS engine

Glad to know that the car is on the way to being healed now, but wondering about the who-pays situation!
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Old 27th May 2017, 15:15   #250
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Default Re: Maruti S-Cross 1.6L – Sudden death of the 320 DDiS engine

It's been a week now that Maruti & the dealer are actively looking into the issue. Has the work started? Is it going to start tomorrow? If not, let me know and I'll refresh the issue on our homepage, facebook & news sections.

The S-Cross 1.6L is Maruti's most expensive product on sale today. Slow reaction times will NOT be tolerated.
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Old 27th May 2017, 16:36   #251
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Default Re: Maruti S-Cross 1.6L – Sudden death of the 320 DDiS engine

Irritating part is the delay, I work in the service industry and from my experience these delays are absolutely unacceptable.

If I were MUL I would just resolve this to the utmost satisfaction of the customer and turn him around to get a great feedback, to turn around the experience in their favour! These are basics of customer satisfaction. Surprising to see a company like MUL with such huge PR and CSAT machinery to prolong this, and for what?

Someone up there needs to wake up and kick the machinery for repeated goof ups and these delays.

@100BHP you are one super patient person! Once again wishing you the very best.
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Old 27th May 2017, 16:55   #252
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Default Re: Maruti S-Cross 1.6L – Sudden death of the 320 DDiS engine

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
It's been a week now that Maruti & the dealer are actively looking into the issue. Has the work started? Is it going to start tomorrow? If not, let me know and I'll refresh the issue on our homepage, facebook & news sections. ... ... ...
How about keeping the spotlight on them until the repaired car is delivered? And all payment/responsibility issues are sorted.

There is also a nagging question in the back of my mind. Maybe in 100BHP's mind too. None of us seems to really believe this fuel-adulteration talk, but I wonder if 100BHP has said to them, if it is, then what is to stop it happening again tomorrow. In which case what use is the car to me? Or any other buyer?
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Old 27th May 2017, 20:02   #253
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Default Re: Maruti S-Cross 1.6L – Sudden death of the 320 DDiS engine

I believe there is no dedicated person in Maruti who is looking after "online/social media" issues and complaints. I had read an article in Harvard Business Review 10 years ago , how such a person is going to be important in consumer industries in the future.

Maruti's reputation is getting tarnished by sloppy handling of the issue. The dealership and other company executives do not even have an idea how much damage this issue has caused. I'd like to even say that this is now a PR issue and someone senior has to do major damage control.
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Old 27th May 2017, 20:04   #254
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Default Re: Maruti S-Cross 1.6L – Sudden death of the 320 DDiS engine

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Originally Posted by Jaggu View Post
@100BHP you are one super patient person! Once again wishing you the very best.
I fully agree, but the way this matter has been stretched by MSIL and their ASS, somewhere in between 100BHP had to calm down as he vented out his frustration in the forum, when the other party(ies) were not ready to shoulder his problem (Read MSIL and Rohan Motors).

The forum on the other hand provided him the much needed support and advise; may be when the things started falling in place and MSIL decided to stay in good books of its customer, he has gained patience !

All the very best to 100BHP !

Though I am still not convinced on the time taken to address the issues and the reasons assigned for failure, as this will create a bad precedence for the brand.
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Old 27th May 2017, 20:51   #255
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Default Re: Maruti S-Cross 1.6L – Sudden death of the 320 DDiS engine

Dear 100BHP,

Since MSIL is going to rebuild the heart of your car joining every bit together, I would have a lot of concerns about reliability of this engine in future. The fact that any rework even if carried out with all the care and guidelines is only 95% and never 100% to the original. In such a scenario, I think it would be prudent enough to get some written assurance or something similar to warranty from MSIL.

Hope they (MSIL) will thoroughly clean/dry clean the interior to present you the car in pristine condition. Not to mention, please adhere to initial running in to settle the new motor.

Wish you get your car back in a perfect condition very soon. Thanks.
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